God and MBTI

[David Nelson]

Another thread that could have been in 2 sections lol.
It occurred to me that the concept of God for many is that of something external. This may fit into a dualist philosophy, but another thought I had is that perhaps those that see it that way do so because they cannot see salvation in humans in earth. In other words, they don’t believe in the power of love etc emanating from humans, so they put their faith in the spiritual dimension.
In contrast, other spiritual people may see this as being purely based in reality as in humanism. For them the concept of God is merely a metaphor for truth, love and beauty, which need encouraging and nurturing on earth.

I think there is great danger in worshipping an external God, since it can cause us to devalue or disengage from reality, which is all we humans experience. History has shown this to be very true.

Perhaps then it is not the alienation as experienced by INFJs which is the main driver of faith but a lack of faith in humanity in isolation?

In relation to MBTI, perhaps many religious people are actually the types we might least expect, eg, ESTJs, based on their propensity for being spiritual. I could see INFPs fulfilling this kind of role since they have the opposite set of functions to INFJs, but are NF types.

 

[aeon]

But what about the non-dual, uni-versal, no-thing-ness agnostic secular humanists among us?

Cheers,
Ian

 

[David Nelson]

But what about the non-dual, uni-versal, no-thing-ness agnostic secular humanists among us?

Cheers,
Ian

Well that’s where I also stand. I just had this lightbulb kinda moment, so thought I’d put it out there for consideration. There’s no ace to grind in this thread lol

 

[Matty]

Another thread that could have been in 2 sections lol.
It occurred to me that the concept of God for many is that of something external. This may fit into a dualist philosophy, but another thought I had is that perhaps those that see it that way do so because they cannot see salvation in humans in earth. In other words, they don’t believe in the power of love etc emanating from humans, so they put their faith in the spiritual dimension.
In contrast, other spiritual people may see this as being purely based in reality as in humanism. For them the concept of God is merely a metaphor for truth, love and beauty, which need encouraging and nurturing on earth.

I think there is great danger in worshipping an external God, since it can cause us to devalue or disengage from reality, which is all we humans experience. History has shown this to be very true.

Perhaps then it is not the alienation as experienced by INFJs which is the main driver of faith but a lack of faith in humanity in isolation?

In relation to MBTI, perhaps many religious people are actually the types we might least expect, eg, ESTJs, based on their propensity for being spiritual. I could see INFPs fulfilling this kind of role since they have the opposite set of functions to INFJs, but are NF types.

Not a fan of your false dichotomies.

The universe, the Earth, and humans are wonderful. God is even more wonderful.

The work of an artist or craftsman reflects what's in them: looking at Bernini's architecture, or Michaelangelo's paintings gives us some idea about them, but the artist is greater than any of his works. I think people are more likely to overvalue the art, and undervalue the art's creator. The history of mistreated artists, poets, and workers is evidence of our obsession with things over people. Same with God: people want the mansion filled with exotic timbers and stone, over the God who causes all this to exist.

 

[David Nelson]

Who created God though?
I think artists are certainly revered. It’s only when they were not admired in their day, like Van Gogh that they get ignored etc. Today the establishment admire complete crap like Tracy Emin. Genuine art has massive value imo, not because it exists outside of humans but because it has the power to deeply affect humans in positive ways, and the ability to outlive its creator. It is making tangible things which are intangible. It is like magic and thus of enormous value. As Edgar Allan Poe said “what is life without music and poetry?!”

 

[Wyote]

Satan needs love too

 

[David Nelson]

Satan needs love too

That’s deep lol

 

[aeon]

Satan needs love too

okay

Answer to Thy Will Alone,
Ian

 

[Wyote]

That’s deep lol

Sometimes you gotta dig for bones

 

[David Nelson]

Another aspect of this is the idea that we are small and God is bigger/infinite/omniscient. To me that is dangerous, because all we know for sure is that we are alone on Earth. Why do religious people tend to look at it this way? Another way people can waste their lives.

 

[John K]

Another thread that could have been in 2 sections lol.
It occurred to me that the concept of God for many is that of something external. This may fit into a dualist philosophy, but another thought I had is that perhaps those that see it that way do so because they cannot see salvation in humans in earth. In other words, they don’t believe in the power of love etc emanating from humans, so they put their faith in the spiritual dimension.
In contrast, other spiritual people may see this as being purely based in reality as in humanism. For them the concept of God is merely a metaphor for truth, love and beauty, which need encouraging and nurturing on earth.

I think there is great danger in worshipping an external God, since it can cause us to devalue or disengage from reality, which is all we humans experience. History has shown this to be very true.

Perhaps then it is not the alienation as experienced by INFJs which is the main driver of faith but a lack of faith in humanity in isolation?

In relation to MBTI, perhaps many religious people are actually the types we might least expect, eg, ESTJs, based on their propensity for being spiritual. I could see INFPs fulfilling this kind of role since they have the opposite set of functions to INFJs, but are NF types.

I'm not really sure where you are going with this David. There are many ways of validly exploring God, and many that are rubbish. Are you picking up on some aspects of the latter, or are you challenging any sort of acceptance of God?

The reason I ask is because most mature believers in God don't think of him as purely external. All humans are part of the fabric of the world in which we find ourselves and God is buried deep in our hearts as well as deep in the heart of everything around us, and in the heart of everything else - to the ends of the universe.

I'd suggest caution in thinking that humans experience reality. It's pretty obvious from the way we all talk that reality is a different experience from one person to the next. They can't all be right and I suspect none of them are

It's pretty obvious too that some of us do in fact embrace evil and we cannot be trusted as a species to embody the essence of good. This is insidious because we have great difficulty in perceiving evils that are present and endemic. We only have to look at history to see this because it's clear that we now condemn things that in the past were accepted as good. There are probably things rotting away in our societies that we accept as good which people in 400 years time will be horrified by.

 

[David Nelson]

No real agenda just thought my point was perhaps interesting. I do know religious people who see God as external and real in some form. They also see God as inherently superior to man. I don't think this is a rare opinion among religious people. As I'm sure you know, people's belief in the concept of God varies widely. I don't believe in an external God, just that the concept has some? merits (as well as problems).

 

[John K]

No real agenda just thought my point was perhaps interesting. I do know religious people who see God as external and real in some form. They also see God as inherently superior to man. I don't think this is a rare opinion among religious people. As I'm sure you know, people's belief in the concept of God varies widely. I don't believe in an external God, just that the concept has some? merits (as well as problems).

Many people who believe in God in some form will think of him or her as external and real, I guess. But those who don't believe in God also think of him in this sort of way as well - as an objectified and conceptualised conjecture that they don't believe exists. I often find that both believers and non-believers are describing something over-simplified and archaic that's only a little like what seems to be really there .

But then the same is true of much of what we know - who can really say they understand and can explain what an atom is? Who if pressed could really argue why the theory of global warming is true, or could prove that the earth is round? I find that almost all that people claim to be true is actually based on faith, and they have no means of justifying it other than referring to one or another authority - in other words it's belief based on faith.

 

[Wyote]

Another aspect of this is the idea that we are small and God is bigger/infinite/omniscient. To me that is dangerous, because all we know for sure is that we are alone on Earth. Why do religious people tend to look at it this way? Another way people can waste their lives.

Is the bigness of God dangerous or are you just a scared wimp

 

[David Nelson]

Is the bigness of God dangerous or are you just a scared wimp

Haha. No, its that I think there is danger in putting people second in such a philosophy/system. I understand that a concept of 'perfect goodness' etc. is unattainalbe for any human, so see no problem with an ideal being something to aim at only, but to say God is inherently superior and omnipotent etc. makes him out to be a 'being' rather than a concept and bring with it all kinds of issues imo in how we live our lives. It makes the faith something outside of human experience (supernatural) and I'm not comfortable with that. It plays into people putting their 'relationship with God' above that of humans. That's messed up imo. It seems more self-serving to me. Like a drug they are on, which puts humans in a poor second place.

 

[Wyote]

puts humans in a poor second place

I get your perspective, I've just never absorbed it that way. God has never been a threat to me.

 

[Matty]

Another aspect of this is the idea that we are small and God is bigger/infinite/omniscient. To me that is dangerous, because all we know for sure is that we are alone on Earth. Why do religious people tend to look at it this way? Another way people can waste their lives.

How is it dangerous to acknowledge things greater than oneself? Fragile ego injury?

Humanity is greater than you. The earth is bigger than you. The Sun makes the earth look like a grain of rice. The solar system makes the sun look like a speck of dust. The galaxy makes the solar system look like nothing. The universe makes our galaxy virtually invisible. The universe is literally as virtually nothing next to God.

I think it's dangerous to have an inflated view of oneself. It's like ontological dunning Kruger on epileptic steroids.

 

[April]

How is it dangerous to acknowledge things greater than oneself? Fragile ego injury?

Humanity is greater than you. The earth is bigger than you. The Sun makes the earth look like a grain of rice. The solar system makes the sun look like a speck of dust. The galaxy makes the solar system look like nothing. The universe makes our galaxy virtually invisible. The universe is literally as virtually nothing next to God.

I think it's dangerous to have an inflated view of oneself. It's like ontological dunning Kruger on epileptic steroids.

Phew... lol. I love this reply so very much. I was cheering inside ^_^

 

[April]

Who created God though?
I think artists are certainly revered. It’s only when they were not admired in their day, like Van Gogh that they get ignored etc. Today the establishment admire complete crap like Tracy Emin. Genuine art has massive value imo, not because it exists outside of humans but because it has the power to deeply affect humans in positive ways, and the ability to outlive its creator. It is making tangible things which are intangible. It is like magic and thus of enormous value. As Edgar Allan Poe said “what is life without music and poetry?!”

While I agree with some art being "crap" it's not to all who see it. People see everything differently so... all of it is genuine, and all of it is beautiful to those who see it that way. I don't like how you imply that your opinion is truth, but hey. To each his own. *shrugs*

This is an extremely interesting thread though, especially reading what @Sometimes Yeah has to say. I have to say I am pleasantly surprised. I might have to invest in reading the whole thing. I might, idk.

 

[April]

Oh. Lmao... that is all of the thread... maybe I should look before I speak... always did have a problem with that on threads