Fe and Fi

[charlatan]

In fact some of these problems are already in the version of the theory the OP relates (not the OP's fault, she is simply relating the standard theory)--I think that the idea often is circulated that Fi is the truly subjective feeling function (basically this is where the association of it with being more feminine or whatever is coming from), and I think sometimes Fe is portrayed as seeking greater consensus. I've generally been disavowed of that notion, and viewed T as the kind of "objectivity" that really seeks consensus.

In general, I think F/an ethical orientation is a more delicate game, where there is no way to inherently force consensus, and it is a more human process of judgment somehow.

The 2 sources of consensus tend to be logical reason and tradition, and I don't think either is what Fe "ought" to be in the system.

 

[Gaze]

One thing I appreciate about Fe is that it tries to pull for community, but one con is that it may sacrifice the unique needs or concerns of the individual for the sake of consensus. I appreciate Fis appreciation of individual differences. It allows you to a great deal of self discovery, and acknowledgement of your own feelings or views separate from the whole or everyone else. One con of Fi is it that it can be so self or me focused that it ignores the needs for social harmony or community.

 

[charlatan]

At risk of repeating, I still think it is worth potentially questioning the consensus-orientation of Fe, on the basis that I think this arises from the earlier, less advanced thoughts on the subject, which kind of treat all versions of extraverted judgment functions as consensus oriented.

Let's examine e/i in general: extraversion means orientation to the outer factors, and yes, consensus is one such. But it seems to me that the other is moving/displacing/affecting. I really like socionics' take on this, albeit an expanded take on this. Se in my mind has to do with moving things through practical impact, and Fe has to do with arousal based on the significance/value of something.
The point here is that S and F both seem to consist of involved orientations (S being due to the orientation to the tangible, F due to the orientation to the personal) ... this part isn't new, it was inspired by socionics and I think it's a good idea. With the extraverted orientations, one has a positive relation to the outer, hence a positive relation to involvement with the outer (Fe seeks to be moved, rather than unmoved, by those objects with value-potential and Se is sort of one's more direct interface with tangible objects).

Personally I still like the idea of F being more "harmony" oriented than consensus-oriented. In fact, I tend to view Te as the greatest consensus orientation of all. N and T are both abstraction oriented (note that some say F is more so, but I say NF is the most 'intangible' oriented and NT the most abstraction oriented -- here I'm noting abstraction to have 2 components, namely one being non-physicality, and two being withdrawing from personal experience, which is a very T/logic oriented thing).
This withdrawing from personal experience is an essential side of consensus producing.

Jung even notes in his portrayal of Te that feeling disturbs the rigid formula of thinking, and personally I think the orientation to consensus of F is better called an orientation to harmony: one does not demand the assent to any proposition so much as one reacts to the net production of disharmony.
(Note that not all F types are peaceloving, and the goal may not be the maximizing of harmony -- in some cases it is, in other cases the goal may be precisely the opposite, where maintaining harmony in some F-type enneagram 4s is shunned in favor of incessant seeking to be moved, to find meaning, and depth and significance)
A lot of F reasoning is extremely deeply philosophical, and as such while it is extremely important, I simply don't think it has quite the same ability to appeal to consensus.

I think N doesn't really produce consensus either, but Ne does seem to have a way of playing with the various threads attempting to lead to it, although it often errs on the side of creating more and more threads rather than really producing consensus.
Ti is T, yes, so in a way it is a certain "spin" on what I call Te's true consensus-orientation, but more in the sense that it forces one to define the framework one is working in to the point where it is hard not to arrive at consensus simply because there's only so much wiggle room you have once you have rigidly defined things.

But, as with say axioms of a theory, the axioms can be questioned once one exits Ti, re-enters Ne or whatever.

 

[Asa]

— Getting stuck in a conversation you can’t get out of because the person is chatty and you don’t wanna be the one to break it off
— Getting heart palpitations anytime there’s even a small hint of conflict in your immediate vicinity
— Feeling like shit all day because someone said something not very nice to you and you can’t help but caring about their opinion— even if they’re a complete stranger
— Being too considerate to tell aforementioned person they hurt your feelings so you just kinda silently suffer
— Except you can’t silently suffer. You can’t internally manage your emotions so you have to get it out. So you go vent to your friends
— Now you’re worried that you’re burdening your friends with your venting
— Getting roped into stupid tasks you didn’t want to do because someone really needed help and begged you
— Guilt tripping works REALLY fucking well on you
— You sacrifice doing a lot of shit you wanted to do because it would have burdened someone else
— Laughing at jokes you don’t think are funny
— Expressing your feelings to someone, or trying to make a connection with someone, and the feeling isn’t reciprocated, and you feel like absolute shit
— Your friends get exasperated with you because every time they ask what restaurant you wanna go to you respond with “wherever you want to go”
— When another strong Fe type asks what restaurant you want to go to and the two of you get trapped in a conversation of “Whichever one you want to go to” “No, you choose the one you want”
— Getting used and manipulated constantly by assholes who realize you will do things for them
— Admiring non-Fe types for their ability to handle their emotions and willingness to deal with conflict while at the same time being horrified at the disputes they cause
— Getting irrationally angry when someone else is mistreated— even when it’s not even your problem
— “Don’t they realize how this will affect other people?! Consider others before you do something!” runs in your head more often than you’d like
— That intense moment where the people you’re close to are arguing and they want you to pick a side
— Being so easily influenced by other people’s emotions. Oh you’re sad? Now I’m sad too, dammit
— Overall not wanting to be a venting, sensitive, and used people-pleaser but not being able to help it

 

[ClintonSr]

One thing I appreciate about Fe is that it tries to pull for community, but one con is that it may sacrifice the unique needs or concerns of the individual for the sake of consensus. I appreciate Fis appreciation of individual differences. It allows you to a great deal of self discovery, and acknowledgement of your own feelings or views separate from the whole or everyone else. One con of Fi is it that it can be so self or me focused that it ignores the needs for social harmony or community.

I think this something that has struck me lately with a few of my Fi friends. Fi-aux are highly sensitive compare to Fi-dom. I wonder if it's the combination of Ne and Te that makes them vocalize their needs. Perceptive but things don't always calculate correctly.

 

[Gaze]

– Getting stuck in a conversation you can’t get out of because the person is chatty and you don’t wanna be the one to break it off
– Getting heart palpitations anytime there’s even a small hint of conflict in your immediate vicinity
– Feeling like shit all day because someone said something not very nice to you and you can’t help but caring about their opinion– even if they’re a complete stranger
– Being too considerate to tell aforementioned person they hurt your feelings so you just kinda silently suffer
– Except you can’t silently suffer. You can’t internally manage your emotions so you have to get it out. So you go vent to your friends
– Now you’re worried that you’re burdening your friends with your venting
– Getting roped into stupid tasks you didn’t want to do because someone really needed help and begged you
– Guilt tripping works REALLY fucking well on you
– You sacrifice doing a lot of shit you wanted to do because it would have burdened someone else
– Laughing at jokes you don’t think are funny
– Expressing your feelings to someone, or trying to make a connection with someone, and the feeling isn’t reciprocated, and you feel like absolute shit
– Your friends get exasperated with you because every time they ask what restaurant you wanna go to you respond with “wherever you want to go”
– When another strong Fe type asks what restaurant you want to go to and the two of you get trapped in a conversation of “Whichever one you want to go to” “No, you choose the one you want”
– Getting used and manipulated constantly by assholes who realize you will do things for them
– Admiring non-Fe types for their ability to handle their emotions and willingness to deal with conflict while at the same time being horrified at the disputes they cause
– Getting irrationally angry when someone else is mistreated– even when it’s not even your problem
– “Don’t they realize how this will affect other people?! Consider others before you do something!” runs in your head more often than you’d like
– That intense moment where the people you’re close to are arguing and they want you to pick a side
– Being so easily influenced by other people’s emotions. Oh you’re sad? Now I’m sad too, dammit
– Overall not wanting to be a venting, sensitive, and used people-pleaser but not being able to help it

I don't think this list is predominantly Fe or limited to Fe-types. I am supposed to be Fi (INFP), and most of this describes how I feel. I think the biggest issues I see in how people define Fe vs. Fi is using behavior to explain differences instead of looking at motives. Fe does not have the monopoly on avoiding social conflict, seeking harmony, or people pleasing.

 

[charlatan]

As far as the dichotomies (rather, dimensional) view of the MBTI -- which is what the statistically constructed instrument *actually measures*, rather than any JCF which is more indirectly related, all F types are more likely to harmony-preservation than T types.

The reason this is ascribed to Fe is simply that people rationalize that the "e" gives license to consider external factors more, hence smooth things out with the person one is interacting with. In reality, I find this not an equitable thing, because the motive for harmony-seeking with the outside may be internal, even if the act itself involves external factors; the motive is most important to Jung at least in determining intro/extraversion.

The other thing is that there's no reason considering external factors should even mean seeking harmony. A priori, if we're committed to working with functions, not dichotomies, the simple truth is that F is about value judgment, and smoothing things over can be problematic to genuine value judgment.

I personally conceive of the Ti--Fe chasm more in terms of Ti tending at the last resort to purely structural considerations, devoid of reason to prompt any kind of action, and Fe as that which notes the presence of the object so as to rationalize action (by sanctioning it as worth pursuing, which, note, irreducibly requires value judgment beyond purely logical judgment).

This is similar to socionics' view that Fe is "ethics of emotion," but it is a more abstract and IMO conceptually satisfying take, as it doesn't reduce Fe to things like affecting people's moods and making them laugh or whatever.

 

[Pyrrhula]

Fe is my least favorite part of being an INFJ. Do others feel this way? Fe seems to rock the boat with the other facets of INFJism. It is our open door that contrasts with a more private, quiet self.

That's weird because it's supposed to be our saviour function! Without it we'd get stuck in the Ni-Ti loop, and that's not a good place to be.

I like it. I wish it was more dominant in me. However, I also wish that I had Fi, as I'm never certain about how I feel or what I want.

 

[Asa]

That's weird because it's supposed to be our saviour function! Without it we'd get stuck in the Ni-Ti loop, and that's not a good place to be.

I like it. I wish it was more dominant in me. However, I also wish that I had Fi, as I'm never certain about how I feel or what I want.

True, true. I just don't like being emotional, or the way my environment/other people affect my emotions. I don't like how my emotions work.

Right now I am freaking out because I don't know what I want and dominant Fi would be convenient.

Also, even though INFPs can drive me mad sometimes, I also want to be more like my INFP friends.

 

[Pyrrhula]

Also, even though INFPs can drive me mad sometimes, I also want to be more like my INFP friends.

They're very certain about things, aren't they? It seems unbelievable to me, as someone whose favourite phrase is "I don't know". I seem to be surrounded by them. My mother, 2 exes (at least), 3 friends (at least). Certainty. Everywhere.

 

[Asa]

I am the "I don't know" person in my circle, too.
When I do make a rare firm decision it is carved in granite, though. LOL

 

[Pyrrhula]

I am the "I don't know" person in my circle, too.
When I do make a rare firm decision it is carved in granite, though. LOL

Haha... yes, same here. There are so few of them though - like a handful. It's getting worse as I get older, as I'm getting better at seeing all points of view, all options and everything that could go wrong (based mostly on past experiences). I'm a perpetual fence-sitter nowadays. Having said that I like to make rash decisions (door-slamming moments!).

 

[Asa]

Hahaha. Yes!
It is really funny to see how closely people fit into their types once you learn them. Right now I'm in the middle of a big change that I am indecisive and anxious about because I don't know what I want. (I knew what I wanted, but that choice is not an option, so of course nothing else is good enough for my rare, concrete decision, and I must compromise, and decide between two choices that seem both good and bad.)
My INTJ SO was sure, but he has cold feet now because he is scrutinizing the practical facts of our choice. This makes me more freaked out because I feed off him.
So, I approached my INTP dad for help. His response to my confusion and extroverted emotional state was, ".......?"
I'm ROTFL at the comedy of it.