Faking It: Women, Academia, and Impostor Syndrome

[say what]

Hmmm. Interesting. I have always been myself. I speak my mind even though some of the things I say wouldnt be considered "masculine". Example, I do actually like Disney movies. I dont drive truck to drive a truck, I have an suv because it can haul outdoor stuff. Before that I had a sports car that I friggin loved. But when you lose you job... I think most guys drive trucks to "feel" tough. Its funny to me actually. Its likes this outer bs shell. But maybe thats just me. I do what I like, am what I am.

As a man. Unacceptable.

Do you find that that women or men are more apt to categorize you into a typical gender role? And then be upset if you don't fit it?

For me, I've found women to be more harsh if you don't 'fit' into a certain stereotype. Men, while they might want a woman to be 'traditional', still accept you for who you are- but don't change their beliefs.

 

[Eventhorizon]

As a man. Unacceptable.

Do you find that that women or men are more apt to categorize you into a typical gender role? And then be upset if you don't fit it?

For me, I've found women to be more harsh if you don't 'fit' into a certain stereotype. Men, while they might want a woman to be 'traditional', still accept you for who you are- but don't change their beliefs.

Categorize me specifically? I honestly do not ever think about it. Ever, until it was mentioned here.

For myself, I do see myself judging on occasion. I am never upset, I pretty much accept people for who they are and what they want to do. But I am more likely to befriend or gravitate towards people who I have a better time understanding. I dont mean to imply this is right or wrong, its just he way it is and I dont really know what the criteria is for it. I will say, I do get confused sometimes of people who seem to go out of their way to look, act and talk gender neutral. I dont know if its a evolutionary thing that causes me\us to want to know, its just throws me a bit off balance. I then ask myself why I care, why am I even thinking about it etc... Just throws a bunch more thought into it than I would like.

 

[Faye]

This is a big issue in academia- I know it is a huge issue in philosophy programs. In is not just one department at one school- it is all over the place. Obviously some places and some professors are decent, but enough aren't that it has been acknowledged as a serious problem. Essentially, the female philosophy students aren't able to participate in discussions because people don't listen to them. Discrimination based on gender, sexual harassment, and the type of situations you're taking about and experiencing are not uncommon.

What you described with your advisor is sexual harassment. If a boss at a workplace treated an employee how your advisor is treating you, it would be grounds for their termination. I understand though that the power dynamic is such that it isn't that easy to fix in academia.

 

[Gaze]

As a man. Unacceptable.

Do you find that that women or men are more apt to categorize you into a typical gender role? And then be upset if you don't fit it?

For me, I've found women to be more harsh if you don't 'fit' into a certain stereotype. Men, while they might want a woman to be 'traditional', still accept you for who you are- but don't change their beliefs.

So true, guys will be more accepting at least on the surface. However women are more likely to show their dislike or disapproval if you don't fit into their preferred persona. Sometimes it's easier with guys because you feel less competitive. Women can be extremely hyper competitive, in part because you're expected to work even harder to prove yourself especially in fields which are mostly male dominated. On the other hand, some of my least positive positive experiences in grad school was in classes, where when there were mostly women in the class. Guys would entertain unusual ideas. You weren't appreciated if you didn't fit in with everyone. It was a better learning experience when there was a mix of both men and women rather than mostly women. Not entirely sure why but it's because everyone was busy proving themselves so it was a less collaborative learning environment. I guess this goes for any grad classroom, but essentially it comes down to whose the best scholar, the most brilliant, the most impressive, etc.

 

[say what]

Categorize me specifically? I honestly do not ever think about it. Ever, until it was mentioned here.

For myself, I do see myself judging on occasion. I am never upset, I pretty much accept people for who they are and what they want to do. But I am more likely to befriend or gravitate towards people who I have a better time understanding. I dont mean to imply this is right or wrong, its just he way it is and I dont really know what the criteria is for it. I will say, I do get confused sometimes of people who seem to go out of their way to look, act and talk gender neutral. I dont know if its a evolutionary thing that causes me\us to want to know, its just throws me a bit off balance. I then ask myself why I care, why am I even thinking about it etc... Just throws a bunch more thought into it than I would like.

Interesting. As a woman of my age, I am often reminded of peoples' personal beliefs of what I should and shouldn't be doing.

For instance, when I was with my ex partner, after 2 years women would ALWAYS ask me "So when do you think you two will get married?" , "When do you think you'll start having kids?", "Are you going to take a break from school when you have kids?" ...this would be conversation starters when I met women- they would just ask me this without knowing much about me. It was like, "well...the next logical step is to have family, so when are you going to do it?"

But now that I'm single, the conversation starters have turned to "So I take it you don't want kids, right?" ...just because I'm pursuing higher education they think I don't want a family...or, "xx is great! He has a stable job, and is looking for a wife" ...like that's what I want because I'm single.

I get this less from men...The only time I've found men give me their overt view, is dating, when they say "Oh I really want a wife I can take care of, who stays at home with the kids" And that's fine, and they seem to be okay that I don't want to fit that traditional version of a woman!

But I've totally went on a tangent- as this has nothing to do with higher education

 

[say what]

This is a big issue in academia- I know it is a huge issue in philosophy programs. In is not just one department at one school- it is all over the place. Obviously some places and some professors are decent, but enough aren't that it has been acknowledged as a serious problem. Essentially, the female philosophy students aren't able to participate in discussions because people don't listen to them. Discrimination based on gender, sexual harassment, and the type of situations you're taking about and experiencing are not uncommon.

What you described with your advisor is sexual harassment. If a boss at a workplace treated an employee how your advisor is treating you, it would be grounds for their termination. I understand though that the power dynamic is such that it isn't that easy to fix in academia.

It's a hard balance of power!

I think you're right about academics. A friend of mine was taking a course in the history of industrialization and employment (can you so snoozefest!!? hehe) ...and she was the only woman in the course. The professor never called out any students, and generally there was always good discussion, but during the lecture on "domestic duties" he stopped and called her out and said "why don't you tell us more about this"

She was shocked and followed through...but it highlighted the fact that he just assumed that she was a woman and knew about this...fortunately after the class he told her he felt bad for doing that, and didn't men to be sexist- which was nice. But it's amazing how really innocent actions can be highly sexist!

 

[Gaze]

It's a hard balance of power!

I think you're right about academics. A friend of mine was taking a course in the history of industrialization and employment (can you so snoozefest!!? hehe) ...and she was the only woman in the course. The professor never called out any students, and generally there was always good discussion, but during the lecture on "domestic duties" he stopped and called her out and said "why don't you tell us more about this"

She was shocked and followed through...but it highlighted the fact that he just assumed that she was a woman and knew about this...fortunately after the class he told her he felt bad for doing that, and didn't men to be sexist- which was nice. But it's amazing how really innocent actions can be highly sexist!

I could understand how it could be seen as sexist but then again, he would also have been called sexist if the other men answered questions on domestic issues. Someone would have then argued that men were speaking for women on a topic normally perceived from the perspective of women. So, I think it wouldn't have won either way because there would have been another way to read his behavior as sexist if he allowed the men in the room to do all the talking on that particular issue.

Edit: It's not easy to be an instructor/professor and have clear gender imbalances in the class. When there is only a few people of one gender and the majority gender dominates the discussion, the minority group in the class tends to remain silent and so it's often that the instructor has to start calling on someone just so it evens out.

 

[say what]

I could understand how it could be seen as sexist but then again, he would also have been called sexist if the other men answered questions on domestic issues. Someone would have then argued that men were speaking for women on a topic normally perceived from the perspective of women. So, I think it wouldn't have won either way because there would have been another way to read his behavior as sexist if he allowed the men in the room to do all the talking on that particular issue.

Edit: It's not easy to be an instructor/professor and have clear gender imbalances in the class. When there is only a few people of one gender and they dominate, the minority group in the class tends to remain silent and so it's often that the instructor has to start calling on someone just so it evens out.

I agree- as an instructor it's so difficult.

I remember having a male instructor for my 'history of psychology' class, and there were a few women in it that called the professor sexist because all he ever talked about was the men in the field of psychology that defined it...BUT....that is the case. He highlighted women, but there is just a disproportionate number of women who are foundationalists (not a word!) in traditional disciplines. They largely didn't have the opportunity to become pioneers. So was he sexists? I said no. But maybe he was- why didn't he bring it up? Or challenge it?

 

[say what]

Is ignoring the disempowerment of women throughout the history of disciplines sexist? Or is highlighting the fact that women aren't in the history only further highlighting gender differences, rather than just focusing on intellect? This is where I have a pull with sexism and gender issues- I don't know what is right.

We recently had the first female president at our university. There was such a big thing made about her being a woman and having that position- I was so upset. WHO CARES THAT SHE'S A WOMAN? She got the position because she is intelligent, hardworking, and qualified...we should be highlighting these issues. But then I was like, "am I doing a disservice to women for thinking this?" ...I honestly felt that it was a disservice to women by highlighting her gender so much, but maybe I was in the wrong...I just don't know!

 

[Eventhorizon]

Interesting. As a woman of my age, I am often reminded of peoples' personal beliefs of what I should and shouldn't be doing.

For instance, when I was with my ex partner, after 2 years women would ALWAYS ask me "So when do you think you two will get married?" , "When do you think you'll start having kids?", "Are you going to take a break from school when you have kids?" ...this would be conversation starters when I met women- they would just ask me this without knowing much about me. It was like, "well...the next logical step is to have family, so when are you going to do it?"

But now that I'm single, the conversation starters have turned to "So I take it you don't want kids, right?" ...just because I'm pursuing higher education they think I don't want a family...or, "xx is great! He has a stable job, and is looking for a wife" ...like that's what I want because I'm single.

I get this less from men...The only time I've found men give me their overt view, is dating, when they say "Oh I really want a wife I can take care of, who stays at home with the kids" And that's fine, and they seem to be okay that I don't want to fit that traditional version of a woman!

But I've totally went on a tangent- as this has nothing to do with higher education

I asked my friend once after he had been dating this girl for about 2 years, if he had thought about getting married. I do not normally do that but being around them, I get no clue as to how they feel about each other. However, I would like to think both he and she are happy so if he were to say, "Shes the one" I would get some pleasure out of it. Other than that I dont really care.

I think, peoples lives get boring and sometimes they want to live a little through other peoples lives. In your case, other women may want to live a little through your life and exploits. But I am just guessing. So you believe they are judging you more than simply asking?

 

[Eventhorizon]

Is ignoring the disempowerment of women throughout the history of disciplines sexist? Or is highlighting the fact that women aren't in the history only further highlighting gender differences, rather than just focusing on intellect? This is where I have a pull with sexism and gender issues- I don't know what is right.

We recently had the first female president at our university. There was such a big thing made about her being a woman and having that position- I was so upset. WHO CARES THAT SHE'S A WOMAN? She got the position because she is intelligent, hardworking, and qualified...we should be highlighting these issues. But then I was like, "am I doing a disservice to women for thinking this?" ...I honestly felt that it was a disservice to women by highlighting her gender so much, but maybe I was in the wrong...I just don't know!

I agree no one should care. I suppose this is a little like the race issue though in that I dont have direct experience with people judging me in this way. However, I do feel that as a white person, I am ignored and even chastised for trying to say anything in how non-white people are treated unless it is in line with agreeing non-white people are treated poorly and should be given everything they ask for.

In the work place, I always look at people for what they can do and are capable of. If you can do the job, you should be able to do the job regardless of anything else. End of story.

 

[Gaze]

I agree- as an instructor it's so difficult.

I remember having a male instructor for my 'history of psychology' class, and there were a few women in it that called the professor sexist because all he ever talked about was the men in the field of psychology that defined it...BUT....that is the case. He highlighted women, but there is just a disproportionate number of women who are foundationalists (not a word!) in traditional disciplines. They largely didn't have the opportunity to become pioneers. So was he sexists? I said no. But maybe he was- why didn't he bring it up? Or challenge it?

But what was he supposed to have challenged? He can't make up his own facts. It's a history class. If this a class at the graduate level where they were going beyond basic research in that field. Maybe what he could have done was explain how documenting observations and theories which was the foundation of theory development allowed men to get credit vs. women whose written records were considered personal and oral, not capable of scientific objectivity. Maybe the issue the women had with the instructor is "how" he discussed the men in the field. If he spoke about them as if placing them on a pedestal and gave the impression women weren't capable of the same achievements, then that would be grounds for sexism, but I'm reluctant to deem every cry of sexism as valid or true. The fact that mostly men are credited with the foundational theories in the field of psychology is a fact. That's not something the professor can change about the history of the field.

 

[say what]

I asked my friend once after he had been dating this girl for about 2 years, if he had thought about getting married. I do not normally do that but being around them, I get no clue as to how they feel about each other. However, I would like to think both he and she are happy so if he were to say, "Shes the one" I would get some pleasure out of it. Other than that I dont really care.

I think, peoples lives get boring and sometimes they want to live a little through other peoples lives. In your case, other women may want to live a little through your life and exploits. But I am just guessing. So you believe they are judging you more than simply asking?

I think the intentions are different if they're your friends vs. people who don't know you. These were people who I often didn't know!

Perhaps I was wrong to think that they were judging me...in reflecting about it right now, I would have been more comfortable if they asked me about my education/career - but what does that say? Just because I am less comfortable talking about 'being a mom and a wife' than a 'teacher and a scholar', doesn't mean they were judging me. I guess perhaps I was projecting my own guilt that I often feel for being more interested (right now) in my school and work, than starting a family. Hmm....that's interesting!

 

[say what]

But what was he supposed to have challenged? He can't make up his own facts. It's a history class. If this a class at the graduate level where they were going beyond basic research in that field. Maybe what he could have done was explain how documenting observations and theories which was the foundation of theory development allowed men to get credit vs. women whose written records were considered personal and oral, not capable of scientific objectivity. Maybe the issue the women had with the instructor is "how" he discussed the men in the field. If he spoke about them as if placing them on a pedestal and gave the impression women weren't capable of the same achievements, then that would be grounds for sexism, but I'm reluctant to deem every cry of sexism as valid or true. The fact that mostly men are credited with the foundational theories in the field of psychology is a fact. That's not something the professor can change about the history of the field.

I agree!

Is it wrong that I get confused about sexism? As a woman, if I don't believe it's sexist, I sometimes feel I'm betraying women!!!

 

[Gaze]

I think, peoples lives get boring and sometimes they want to live a little through other peoples lives.

@Eventhorizon

I agree, that sometimes people don't have anything new happening with them so they're just on the look out for what may be happening in other people's life. It gives a sense of something to look forward, a little excitement. Edit: a new little bit of gossip to gag over.

I agree!

Is it wrong that I get confused about sexism? As a woman, if I don't believe it's sexist, I sometimes feel I'm betraying women!!!

Yeah, it can be tough because there's always the fear that someone in a position of power or authority whether in higher education or otherwise can use and abuse their position through gender discrimination and stereotyping. I also think on the other hand that what could hurt us is when we cry sexism when it's not, because it makes it less likely that real cases of sexism are not addressed fairly and taken seriously because someone reads it as "crying wolf". That would be my concern.

 

[Gaze]

Actually, when I think about, I've experienced more exploitation and abuse of power by women in positions of leadership in the classroom and at work than men. Most of my mail bosses were pretty easy going and not quite as critical or judgmental.

 

[Gaze]

I think at the heart of sexism against women specifically in higher education or otherwise is the belief that women are still lacking something which they need to account for so they either need to work harder to prove that they can achieve it (since the guy is naturally smarter and should be standard) or do other things to make up for it like being pretty or attractive. It still amazes me how comfortable people are with the assumption that the height of a women's achievement is whether or she can prove herself capable of doing what a man can supposedly do well naturally. And of course if we can't achieve these "manly" pursuits then it supports the belief that we are the weaker and less competent gender. in other words, as long as we belief in the inequity and inequality of the sexes, our world still continue to support sexism. Another unhealthy belief which everyone indirectly supports everyday and the media hopes we continue to accept without question is the assumption that women are primarily physical and sexual objects. And a women's identity should always reflect this understanding which is why you can have a male professor dressed like he just came off the streets and he will be evaluated by how brilliant he is in class, while a female instructor doing the will be evaluated by how she looked and whether or not she wore the same clothes two weeks ago.

 

[DonTaushMe]

Every time I read the title of this tread I think of women faking orgasms *nods* every time.

 

[say what]

Every time I read the title of this tread I think of women faking orgasms *nods* every time.

Another thing we know all too well!

 

[DonTaushMe]

Another thing we know all too well!

Sadly I must agree. Having sex with women does not make me immune to this :'(