Etiquette Challenge: People Putting Themselves Down | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Etiquette Challenge: People Putting Themselves Down

Sometimes you just have to suck it up when other people are annoying you with their insecurities and be nice. It's super awkward to have people put themselves down to you. I get it. As a woman, I can't tell you how many times other women mention to me that they are fat or their hair is ugly or their skin is bad or something like that. Those are typically the ones I hear. It is uncomfortable to hear it. But I just tell them, "No, I don't think you are. You look great," and move on. Doesn't ever go farther than that.
 
This is a really good question. I've noticed most successful people don't put themselves down in professional settings (or at all). I think between friends it's normal and healthy to be vulnerable and express self-doubts, but it is a real sign of weakness at work. And it pulls you in. It's like people begging for free therapy when they say things like that, and pulling you into their insecure world as well. Probably ignoring or flipping topics fast is the best approach so that coworkers (superiors and inferiors alike) don't see you as a free therapist or a "softie." Best for you and best for them. The other day someone did this to me regarding their current class grade ("ugh, I am so dumb, I have a 77!"). I just moved on in a nice way saying something like it's a good thing there's plenty of time/tests for people turn things around if they truly want to, and I neither confirmed nor denied her statement. So I was nice, but didn't engage in her real need, which was to have affirmed that her grade wasn't that bad and that she wasn't stupid (I wasn't going to go there, no point, I'm not her shrink and she's not my friend). The challenge is to be kind, but not engage too deeply in that type of dialogue I think. If someone says they're fat, I wouldn't say something cruel ("Yes, you are"), but I also wouldn't use self-deprecating humor to bring myself into their self-pity/insecurity club ("Oh well, my hair is thinning, no one's perfect!"). I think the goal is to kindly affirm that you've heard them and move on. An example might be "Yeah, in this kind of job it is hard to feel fit, isn't it? I think there's a spin group that meets at blah time at blah place, I've heard good things about it." Just something like that I guess.
 
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At work, I get people who say stuff like this to me all the time. I agree, it's awkward. I used to just smile and laugh like it was a joke when I was younger. Now, I realize someone might say, "I am fat" or, "I am old" for different reasons. It might be if they are comparing themselves to you and don't feel like they measure up or they are somewhat attracted to you or they think you might be attracted to them.

My response changes depending on the reason for the comment. If it's a comparison, I usually commiserate and say something benign like, " I feel like that sometimes, too. I wonder if Jennifer Lawrence has days like this?" Usually, they respond with a smile and I change the subject.

If it's an attraction thing, and it's someone I like, I usually just smile and say, "Whatever you say. I don't see it but I like you just the way you are." It's true. I do.

If it's an attraction thing and it's someone I don't particularly like, I will say nothing but give them my "Stop being ridiculous!" look and roll my eyes. I don't have the patience for that kind of thing.

I will, however, sometimes tell much younger dudes that I am old if I want them to stop crushing on me because it usually works.
 
Is what they say true? Are you sure they're serious? Are you also sure that they need you to say anything?

There's a lot of different reasons people say these things about themselves and not all of them are sad or bad. This depends a lot on context because some people joke about themselves in a self-effacing manner. Also some times what they say is true and they are merely accepting it.
 
Also if they actually are serious, you should probably gracefully move on to some other topic. It's not your job to fix everybody, not to mention it is unrealistic to expect people to magically come away happy just because you said "the right thing".

That kind of thing goes beyond etiquette. Practically speaking if you don't know what you're doing you could just make them worse no matter how polite you think you are. If you don't know how to handle it then you're probably not even equipped to handle it in the first place.
 
Sometimes I ask why (pretending to be fascinated and say nothing can work to, then they are forced to continue or feel uncomfortable) until they've progressed to a safe point for me to comment on. Thats always my plan B.
 
I think you've raised a really interesting question. I don't know if there is a professional etiquette response for this. I mean, look at all the differing approaches to this dilemma. I would imagine the answer to your question would also change depending on the work environment, meaning different work environments have different behavior expectations regarding this. Some might be accepting and tolerant of this behavior where other work environments might not. Personally, it makes me uncomfortable when people I don't know express personal insecurities such as "I'm fat", etc., in a professional arena. Interesting question and interesting responses.
 
I always try to show an advantage of the negative aspect to the person:

"I'm so old" "Maybe, but perhaps more wise?"
"I'm so fat" "You must really know how to enjoy food then huh?" (ok usually I don't contest this since it's a major hot button)
"I'm so slow" "You are the fucking turtle. You will win in the end"
 
invisible said:
In terms of etiquette, what is the correct response to put-downs against self? I think someone should come away from an interaction feeling good. I think there must be a way to deftly approach put-downs against self so that the other person comes away from the interaction feeling good about themselves, but still knows that what they said is basically up to them.

Can anyone share stories in which they have competently and respectfully responded to put downs expressed by others against their selves?
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I deal with this a great deal in my professional life. I've found that my response to these things is highly subjective and dependent on my relationship with the person in question. I know most of my colleagues well enough that I know details of their personal lives. They aren't exactly friends, but much more than just mere acquaintances. I think that makes it easier to give an honest response. Some real examples would include:

A woman who has recently had a baby: "I'm so fat!"
me: "Oh, please, you've just given birth! Worry about adjusting to your new baby first. Girl, you can hardly sleep let alone exercise, and I hear Spanx do wonders for your butt." Her response was a laugh, a hug, and a thank you with a genuine smile.

A man who's gotten a little chubby after a divorce. Patting his belly, "I miss homecooking. Then I wouldn't have this."
me: "And being suddenly single means that you can't cook for yourself? Please! *eyeroll* You know, a man who knows his way around a kitchen is some sexy shit, just saying."

A woman feeling a little jealous when the EMT's were flirting with a young nurse: "I have horrible crows feet and smiling like that (pointing to the young nurse and her beaming grin) only makes them show even more."
me: "Who cares about crows feet? Them? (pointing to the EMT's) Pffft! Please, like you want to take dumb and dumber home with you (my pet names for these particular EMT's). Besides, you're much prettier when you smile, and you should be using those laugh lines to seduce that new doc in Neuro."
her response: "Yeah (laughs) they're probably not potty-trained yet anyway." Followed by, "Is that new neuro doc married?"

When it's people I don't know well, it seems more like they're fishing for some validation, a pat on the shoulder, some attention, anything. In these instances I'm not so personal with them and typically use humor and/or random idioms to fend them off. It's strange that they would say these things to someone they barely know and in a professional setting, but since they breached the professional atmosphere by stating these comments and making it personal, I give it right back to them. More real examples:

"I'm too old" - you know what they say, a dog is never too old to learn new tricks.
"I'm so fat" - just more of you to love
"I'm so stupid" - learning is never over.
"Fuck my life" - create a new one for yourself.
"I hate my hair" - maybe it's time for a change.
 
I was thinking about this in relation to my job, and of the specific things people have said to you. I honestly can't recall the last time anyone said "I'm fat" to me on the job. I do get "I'm old" all the time, but that is very understandable given that I work in optics. Presbyopia sets in for pretty much every human being in the early 40s, so considering that everyone that age and upwards likely requires vision correction for reading, I get many patients who are older. Some are so stubborn that they squint and refuse to admit that they can't see the books in front of them until their 80s.

What I do is quite simple.

I listen.

I love listening. It doesn't mean I agree or disagree with their statements, because I neither agree, nor disagree with their statements. To me, their statements just are. They are saying them for a reason, so I just listen. You do not have to insult them, nor do you have to tell them otherwise. Just be there for them. Something I frequently say is "what makes you say that?" I also sometimes laugh a bit, but that laughter is genuine and they know it, because I am essentially laughing at myself, as I know how hard I can be on myself.

Sometimes I also say "you are only as old as your spirit." This is not a lie. It is something I genuinely believe. It has also garnered laughter and smiles, although all I was doing was speaking my mind.

Most of all though, as mentioned, just listen. Just be there for them. I've had 89 year old widows, who just lost their husband of decades, who live at home all alone, walk through my door. I've seen tears of pain, and of joy shine in their eyes as we spoke. Just listen. You never know if you're the only person with whom they've truly spoken in a long while.
 
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hush said:
I was thinking about this in relation to my job, and of the specific things people have said to you. I honestly can't recall the last time anyone said "I'm fat" to me on the job. I do get "I'm old" all the time, but that is very understandable given that I work in optics. Presbyopia sets in for pretty much every human being in the early 40s, so considering that everyone that age and upwards likely requires vision correction for reading, I get many patients who are older. Some are so stubborn that they squint and refuse to admit that they can't see the books in front of them until their 80s.

What I do is quite simple.

I listen.

I love listening. It doesn't mean I agree or disagree with their statements, because I neither agree, nor disagree with their statements. To me, their statements just are. They are saying them for a reason, so I just listen. You do not have to insult them, nor do you have to tell them otherwise. Just be there for them. Something I frequently say is "what makes you say that?" I also sometimes laugh a bit, but that laughter is genuine and they know it, because I am essentially laughing at myself, as I know how hard I can be on myself.

Sometimes I also say "you are only as old as your spirit." This is not a lie. It is something I genuinely believe. It has also garnered laughter and smiles, although all I was doing was speaking my mind.

Most of all though, as mentioned, just listen. Just be there for him. I've had 89 year old widows, who just lost their husband of decades, who live at home all alone, walk through my door. I've seen tears of pain, and of joy shine in their eyes as we spoke. Just listen. You never know if you're the only person with whom they've truly spoken in a long while.
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I love this. I absolutely agree. How I speak to patients is far different than how I speak with and interact with colleagues.
 
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invisible said:
I am completely OK with facetious responses, but if responses were not intended humorously, most responses to this thread have truly failed the etiquette challenge that I stated in the OP. In my opinion, the only legitimately successful response is FA's. This is a thread about etiquette, and etiquette is about considerately putting others at ease. If you don't value that, then go ahead and be as rude or offhand or indifferent as you prefer to be; but please refrain from pretending that you are being polite.
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Who is this directed at?
Also, why is it in your mind important to "put others at ease" in your mind? Is it not more important to be truthful and honest?
 
acd said:
Sometimes you just have to suck it up when other people are annoying you with their insecurities and be nice. It's super awkward to have people put themselves down to you. I get it. As a woman, I can't tell you how many times other women mention to me that they are fat or their hair is ugly or their skin is bad or something like that. Those are typically the ones I hear. It is uncomfortable to hear it. But I just tell them, "No, I don't think you are. You look great," and move on. Doesn't ever go farther than that.
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My impression is that is the response these people are after. I will say something demeaning (perhaps correct) about myself just so someone else can disagree with me and I can believe them.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Who is this directed at?
Also, why is it in your mind important to "put others at ease" in your mind? Is it not more important to be truthful and honest?
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It is directed to anyone who is interested in thinking about it, including you. I have already gone into great detail posting my thoughts on what is important to me and why, and if you are interested in comprehending those things about me, you can kindly read what I have already posted. Please quit badgering me, and have a pleasant evening.
 
invisible said:
It is directed to anyone who is interested in thinking about it, including you. I have already gone into great detail posting my thoughts on what is important to me and why, and if you are interested in comprehending those things about me, you can kindly read what I have already posted. Please quit badgering me, and have a pleasant evening.
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Badgering? Ok.
 
Well, it's pretty clear that my etiquette on this thread hasn't been something to be proud of.

I'm a nihilist and I don't really subscribe to a "belief" in things like "Truth" and "Honesty" as essential qualities - essential in the sense of having an "essence" that is stable, fixed, reliable. Those words are descriptions for qualities that to me, are sometimes useful and valuable, and at other times are questionable.

"Truth" is something that is constantly in a state of change, depending on who is "uttering" the "Truth". Most of the time, "Truth" would more accurately be called a "personal perspective" or a "subjective reality". I see people on these forums making claims of "Truth" all the time, that when I personally look carefully into that "Truth", I find that the sources of it as "Truth", or its qualities that could validate it as "Truth", are uncertain or even entirely nebulous. However, I determine to treat other people's personal perspectives with as much respect as I am able to do, acknowledging that for other people, those "Truths" are meaningful and represent a useful "subjective reality", or a meaningful way of perceiving "reality" for those people. A lot of the time, all that can be meaningfully obtained is a personal perspective: "The Truth" is not necessarily apprehendable to humans (as opposed to omniscient gods); it cannot be accessed - there is always more to know that it is not possible to know, we are always dealing with a "Truth" that is incomplete, and in that sense, which can't necessarily be accurately described as "Truth" at all.

"Honesty" is another quality that is tricky to deal with. What this seems to describe is the quality of accurate communication of inner personal perspectives to others. Well, I completely acknowledge qualities of malicious dishonesty, such as political deception, controlling lies of omission, gaslighting, and so on. It is important to acknowledge those thing. But at the same time I tend to believe that it is quite impossible to represent a complete picture of inner "subjective reality" to another person. There are many thoughts in my mind at one time, often conflicting, and it is often difficult to choose just one thought to accurately represent my inner "subjective reality", or to choose one thought above others conflicting with it that is more worthy of representing through communication than those other conflicting thoughts.

Therefore, rather than claiming to possess "The Truth", or to be "Honest", I determine just to do my very best with those concepts in my daily life. I don't choose to be "absolutely faithful" to those concepts, because I acknowledge the flaws inherent to working with those concepts.

When someone is telling me in a conversation in a semi-formal context such as a business or academic situaion that they are "fat", I don't really know what that means. I struggle to understand it. I look at them and think about a range of things. What does this term "fat" mean, and why is it important? Clearly, something about it is important to that person; however it is not necessarily important to me. To start with, I don't know what the meaning of it is in terms of their health. I am absolutely not a medical or other health professional, I am not an expert or authority of any kind on health, and I don't feel qualified to comment on the "Truth" of a health concern - it seems to me that it is entirely possible that any "extra weight" they are carrying is quite healthy for them, and does not represent a meaningful health consideration. Otherwise, maybe I think that they do appear to be overweight to me, but then again, maybe I think that in terms of their appearance, they are quite attractive and charming looking the way they are. And then again, their weight is only one feature of their attractiveness qualities. Maybe they have numerous qualities that are attractive regardless of their weight - their pretty face, their well-turned limbs. And perhaps I have not really noticed or processed all of their attractiveness features, because I am busy considering the things that they are saying about business or about scholarly work rather than about their attractiveness.

So if I say something like "Yeah, you're fat", I can't accurately measure the "Truth" or "Honesty" of this kind of remark. I don't know what the meaning of "fat" is to their health, I just don't know whether it is meaningful or "Truthful" in that sense as a remark that is worth making. And if I say "You're fat", it's not an accurate, "Honest" representation of many different ideas I may have about their appearance - it zooms in on just one aspect of their appearance in a manner that has a very distortional effect on "Truth" and "Honesty". I don't think that a remark like that can accurately be called "Truthful" or "Honest" at all.

All it seems to really achieve to say things like that is not "Truth" or "Honesty", but an expression of absolute CRUELTY, that will provide that other person with a weapon to use against themselves for no good reason. Am I a Cruel person? I have no idea; that is an "essential" quality and I struggle with seeing parts of my mushy brain and mind as "essential". Yes, I can certainly be Cruel; however, I rather to try to not be Cruel, and instead, to be Kind. Because I value Kindness: I think that it is more productive, constructive, and respectful than Cruelty.

Of course, this does not cover every self put-down; all are slightly different. However, I hope this will go some way to explaining my thoughts about these matters.
 
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