Etiquette Challenge: People Putting Themselves Down

[invisible]

In work and career networking situations recently I have found myself involved in conversations related to work with people who have suddenly put themselves down. "I am old", or "I am fat". This type of situation confuses me. I don't know what the appropriate response is. Should I be saying "You are gorgeous just the way you are!" - it doesn't sound right to say something like that. Obviously, I am much more interested in what they have to say for themselves, and in the ideas that they express about what we are discussing, than whether they are "old" or "fat".

My response to this in the past has been to just go completely silent. My rationale behind this is a boundary-setting rationale: you are responsible for you, and I am responsible for me. While I recognise that this is the most emotionally healthy approach, I also recognise that it is not the most polite approach. On the contrary, it creates something of an uncomfortable silence.

In terms of etiquette, what is the correct response to put-downs against self? I think someone should come away from an interaction feeling good. I think there must be a way to deftly approach put-downs against self so that the other person comes away from the interaction feeling good about themselves, but still knows that what they said is basically up to them.

Can anyone share stories in which they have competently and respectfully responded to put downs expressed by others against their selves?

 

[Tin Man]

I think the appropriate reply to such put downs is "Don't worry about it. At your age/size, you'll be dead soon anyway." Seriously though, I have no idea what the correct reply should be. You can either lie and say "Noooo, you...ah...you're fine" or try to tell the truth in as diplomatic way as possible. You can also just stand there awkwardly and slowly move away as they break down into tears

The last time somebody said to me "I'm so fat", my response was "Hm, you're not that overweight. If you're worried about your weight, why not go see a dietician or perhaps create a lifestyle plan which ensures a healthy diet and adequate exercise time." This was not the desired response. In my defense, I was really tired and not in the mood to be diplomatic.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I sometimes make a corresponding humorous self put down. It lightens the situation, doesn't give a compliment (if they were fishing for one), and lets them know they are not alone in having foibles.

Other: I'm old and useless.
Me: I'm young and useless.

 

[the]

I tell them they are right, so that they feel smart.

 

[JJJA]

This sort of self-pitying really drains energy and my ability to be social. I'd rather talk to people that are self-confident and don't feel the need to constantly demand validation for their own mistakes in the form of rhetorical pity-questions such as "Do you think I smoke too much?". Yes, you do, but you need to acknowledge this yourself before you seek approval and/or criticism. It is quite apparent that these people don't even want criticism; they want you to continue their façade of denial by comforting them with fake words. Sort yourself out by first acknowledging to yourself the problem that needs to be addressed, then you can interact with people on a solution.

 

[Eventhorizon]

If someone says they are old and they are you simply say "I agree."

 

[invisible]

I am completely OK with facetious responses, but if responses were not intended humorously, most responses to this thread have truly failed the etiquette challenge that I stated in the OP. In my opinion, the only legitimately successful response is FA's. This is a thread about etiquette, and etiquette is about considerately putting others at ease. If you don't value that, then go ahead and be as rude or offhand or indifferent as you prefer to be; but please refrain from pretending that you are being polite.

 

[invisible]

This sort of self-pitying really drains energy and my ability to be social. I'd rather talk to people that are self-confident and don't feel the need to constantly demand validation for their own mistakes in the form of rhetorical pity-questions such as "Do you think I smoke too much?". Yes, you do, but you need to acknowledge this yourself before you seek approval and/or criticism. It is quite apparent that these people don't even want criticism; they want you to continue their façade of denial by comforting them with fake words. Sort yourself out by first acknowledging to yourself the problem that needs to be addressed, then you can interact with people on a solution.

I too would rather speak with people who are self-confident, however that is simply not possible. I am not seeking to understand the psychological mechanisms behind this behaviour, I am simply attempting to respond to what these people are saying in a way that is kind and respectful, and will result in us both having a good feeling about having spoken to each other.

I can say with complete confidence that my words are absolutely never fake, at least in so far as I can exert control over the things that I say. I can also say with complete confidence that with respect to this issue, there is nothing within myself that requires sorting out. In a semi-formal business or academic situation, it is not possible for me to interact with people on a solution for their personal problems. I seek only to respond in a polite and considerate way that acknowledges the content of what has been said.

 

[JJJA]

I am completely OK with facetious responses, but if responses were not intended humorously, most responses to this thread have truly failed the etiquette challenge that I stated in the OP. In my opinion, the only legitimately successful response is FA's. This is a thread about etiquette, and etiquette is about considerately putting others at ease. If you don't value that, then go ahead and be as rude or offhand or indifferent as you prefer to be; but please refrain from pretending that you are being polite.

Considering that I never pretended to be polite, offering my own opinion on self-validation would seem a perfectly valid response to this thread, regardless of the challenge. Why put someone at ease when all you do is delay the inevitable self-destructive conclusion that is all too late? Appeasing the self-validation of others will only lead them to deny their own problems until it is too late.

 

[invisible]

Considering that I never pretended to be polite, offering my own opinion on self-validation would seem a perfectly valid response to this thread, regardless of the challenge. Why put someone at ease when all you do is delay the inevitable self-destructive conclusion that is all too late? Appeasing the self-validation of others will only lead them to deny their own problems until it is too late.

My words about pretensions to politeness weren't directed at you specifically, and I think it's perfectly fine that you don't value etiquette. However, I do value it, which is why I posted this thread asking for solutions to an etiquette puzzle. I don't deny your freedom to post your thoughts on the thread, but no, I don't appreciate your thoughts as representing a valid response to the challenge.

Etiquette is not about validating self-destruction of others, it's about being considerate and putting people at ease in social situations. It is entirely possible to put another person at ease without validating their personal problems, and I can't figure out why there should necessarily be any conflict between those things.

 

[JJJA]

My words about pretensions to politeness weren't directed at you specifically, and I think it's perfectly fine that you don't value etiquette. However, I do value it, which is why I posted this thread asking for solutions to an etiquette puzzle. I don't deny your freedom to post your thoughts on the thread, but no, I don't appreciate your thoughts as representing a valid response to the challenge.

Etiquette is not about validating self-destruction of others, it's about being considerate and putting people at ease in social situations. It is entirely possible to put another person at ease without validating their personal problems, and I can't figure out why there should necessarily be any conflict between those things.

It won't cause the self-destruction of others unless that person practically relies on the social situations you speak to to consistently ask these rhetorical questions. If that person refuses to acknowledge their own problems in a more comfortable and private setting and continually relies on the validation by other people, they have proven themselves unwilling to want to help themselves. That is where I would draw the line and save myself the wasted effort. Etiquette is rather good for formal occasions and gatherings of different people with opposing views, but eventually these people will have to view themselves in an honest spotlight.

Having said that, a situation that called for pointless validation were noted. I don't remember every detail, but I do recall a former friend of a former room-mate repeatedly wondering why they can't find a 'nice guy'. I suggested they were looking in the wrong places, but I was actually thinking: "How could you not know the answer to such a question? You practically seek fluke booty-calls and you are a fucking exchange student. You'll be gone in two months."

 

[Flavus Aquila]

This sort of self-pitying really drains energy and my ability to be social. I'd rather talk to people that are self-confident and don't feel the need to constantly demand validation for their own mistakes in the form of rhetorical pity-questions such as "Do you think I smoke too much?". Yes, you do, but you need to acknowledge this yourself before you seek approval and/or criticism. It is quite apparent that these people don't even want criticism; they want you to continue their façade of denial by comforting them with fake words. Sort yourself out by first acknowledging to yourself the problem that needs to be addressed, then you can interact with people on a solution.

Possible response: "I don't know, DO you smoke TOO much?"

 

[JJJA]

Possible response: "I don't know, DO you smoke TOO much?"

This is exactly what I have said to several people in the past. Rather predictably, they act as if they don't know.

(They knew before they even approached me).

 

[Asa]

The INTJ responses in this thread are cracking me up.

Your co-workers are being inappropriate and unprofessional. It is not a good idea to remind people of your shortcomings at work, or to drag work conversations off-topic. Self-effacing comments are manipulative, a glaring display of insecurity, or a really tired way to bond. So, you’re not being rude, they are.

"Talking about work is boring. Let's talk about me."
Um, No.

If I like the person, I usually raise an eyebrow as if to say, "Really?" and shake my head in disagreement, then move on with the real topic. If I need to say something, I'll say, "Stop being ridiculous." and then immediately go on with the work topic. If the person is a repeat offender, I completely ignore it.

I've been to places, and have friends from places, where it is considered rude to make these comments, and also to compliment others for no reason. Those comments are met with nothing more than a stare that lets the person know they're being rude. It's a great response. It also keeps conversation from becoming shallow. If you’re not saying something useful, don’t talk.

 

[invisible]

My usual response to smoking remarks is "Don't quit quitting!"

Smoking remarks are an unusual kind of self put-down, because they're mixed up with health issues.

Other self put-downs are a lot less clear. Most people who say "I'm fat!" or "I'm old!" that you meet in social situations aren't really either of those things. Maybe slightly overweight, maybe a little bit older than me - whatever, who cares, Doesn't really mean shit to their value as a person or the things that have to say. And I'm sorry that they feel like that, I would like to help them, but I don't really have time or energy. I will prefer to just be kind and polite, not pretend to be a counselor or other support expert. I believe I can be more helpful to them by validating them as a person than by pretending I am competend to help them solve their problems.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

This is exactly what I have said to several people in the past. Rather predictably, they act as if they don't know.

(They knew before they even approached me).

That raises the question of the limits of civility.

Politeness and some pleasantries are necessary to keep professional and many practical, or social interactions at a constructive state.

The deliberate dopeyness you flag is mostly outside the range of where I can remain civil. In those cases I can only refer the question away to the person, or to someone else:

* "I'm sorry, that's something you have to figure out for yourself."

Or:

* "You need to speak with your doctor. I can't help you figure this out."

 

[invisible]

The INTJ responses in this thread are cracking me up.

Your co-workers are being inappropriate and unprofessional. It is not a good idea to remind people of your shortcomings at work, or to drag work conversations off-topic. Self-effacing comments are manipulative, a glaring display of insecurity, or a really tired way to bond. So, you’re not being rude, they are.

"Talking about work is boring. Let's talk about me."
Um, No.

If I like the person, I usually raise an eyebrow as if to say, "Really?" and shake my head in disagreement, then move on with the real topic. If I need to say something, I'll say, "Stop being ridiculous." and then immediately go on with the work topic. If the person is a repeat offender, I completely ignore it.

I've been to places, and have friends from places, where it is considered rude to make these comments, and also to compliment others for no reason. Those comments are met with nothing more than a stare that lets the person know they're being rude. It's a great response. It also keeps conversation from becoming shallow. If you’re not saying something useful, don’t talk.

I don't agree. I think that people have feelings that they can't necessarily always control. They go through difficult times; their private feelings come out of their mouths when they encounter someone who seems sympathetic. The last thing I want to do is shoot them down by treating their remarks with derision or dismissal. That is not a manifestation of refined etiquette to me. There has to be a better way.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

The INTJ responses in this thread are cracking me up.

Your co-workers are being inappropriate and unprofessional. It is not a good idea to remind people of your shortcomings at work, or to drag work conversations off-topic. Self-effacing comments are manipulative, a glaring display of insecurity, or a really tired way to bond. So, you’re not being rude, they are.

"Talking about work is boring. Let's talk about me."
Um, No.

If I like the person, I usually raise an eyebrow as if to say, "Really?" and shake my head in disagreement, then move on with the real topic. If I need to say something, I'll say, "Stop being ridiculous." and then immediately go on with the work topic. If the person is a repeat offender, I completely ignore it.

I've been to places, and have friends from places, where it is considered rude to make these comments, and also to compliment others for no reason. Those comments are met with nothing more than a stare that lets the person know they're being rude. It's a great response. It also keeps conversation from becoming shallow. If you’re not saying something useful, don’t talk.

This kind of flippancy, masquerading as professionalism, only cultivates a degradation of professional human resources.

This kind of negligence towards/among employees is usually only found at the lowest pay grades in this day and age. Although, there are obviously still some workplaces run on the dinosaur principles.

 

[Asa]

I maintain that talking about personal feelings at work is unprofessional, but I get your point.

If you're concerned about someone, or if you think they need someone to talk to, ask them if they want to get lunch, or a drink/coffee after work and help them sort it out then. A casual, "Are you OK? You seem down." during free time will let them know you care, and give them the option to speak up.
A lot of people make self-depreciating quips out of habit, though. I'm sure you can decipher whether the person just wants attention, is being conversational, or seems like they need a friend.

Opening up at work could affect their chances of promotion, or even get them fired (depending on the job, and how often they act this way) so you'd be doing them a favor by getting them to stay on topic during work hours, and being there for them during free time.

 

[Asa]

This kind of flippancy, masquerading as professionalism, only cultivates a degradation of professional human resources.

This kind of negligence towards/among employees is usually only found at the lowest pay grades in this day and age. Although, there are obviously still some workplaces run on the dinosaur principles.

I disagree. My brother works for a very big company in a powerful global industry. Talking about personal issues is considered unprofessional in his realm, even after work when colleagues meet for drinks. Yes, he has personal friends at work, but they leave personal issues for personal time. The environment is competitive and if you want a promotion, or to keep your job, you must stay within the guidelines.

In the arts, work is usually a mix of personal and professional, but when I get a (freelance) job with a corporation there is no room for personal, nor would I talk about "feelings", even if I have a personal friend in the department.


EDIT: FTR, I didn't interpret the self-depreciation in the original post as being a 'a cry for help' or a person feeling genuinely down. I thought Invisible meant it was conversational. Obviously, compassion reigns if that is what is called for, but I would still do it privately.