ENTP (Male) friend zoned after 1 date by INFJ (Female)

[Ramjet]

OK INFJ's I know you can't read her mind or look in a crystal ball I just need some advice here.
(BTW She claims to have tested INFJ and I know I tested ENTP)

Fade to black or be patient?

I met an INFJ through a mutual friend about a month ago. The friend said we would be like two peas in a pod and they were RIGHT!

We began talking via text because I was travelling and we covered a lot of ground (both older in 40's second marriage) like home life, past traumas, sex, religion, etc. She also established some boundaries with her kids etc. and actually I liked them and implemented the same with my kids in reverse. We also talked on the phone numerous times.

When I got back in town we had a dinner date and I thought it was awesome. No physical contact as we both have a strong Christian Faith.

I have never met someone I have had so much fun talking to. Yes she's beautiful but that faded away after the first date because the connection took front and center.

We talked and texted more and the following week had a lunch date with afternoon plans. At lunch she told me she just wants to be friends. She said she didn't know why because I checked all her boxes including being very handsome but there was no attraction for her. She said she would understand if I didn't want to do the afternoon activity. I said no friends is fine. You can't force attraction and if it's not there...it's not there.

(I said friends is fine because for me it is a starting point. Be friends first and then see what develops.)

She said she still wanted to do several of the activities we had talked about (one in particular) which struck me as a little odd because some of those activities especially that one she referenced is something you would probably do with a close friend/relationship not a casual friend? But then again I don't think INFJ's have casual friends.

The next week the texting was very minimal but I know she was also very, very busy and on top of that needs her decompression time.

This week she called me and we spoke for 2.5 hours on the phone. Again about vulnerable stuff....not the weather. I told her I thought she was one hell of a cool person and I really enjoyed talking to her.

Last night we got ice cream and now I'm confused. Every micro-expression I got from her was making me feel she didn't even want to be friends but fade to black. Now verbally she talked about something I was dealing with saying "Don't worry about forgetting. I'll keep reminding you." So her words were indicating continued friendship but her body language told me end of the line even as friends.

So I stared at the ceiling all night (not literally but several hours) thinking about all the articles I had read in the past three weeks caring for an INFJ and what I felt about the non-verbal cues I was getting.

1. Numerous articles say be patient. Healthy INFJ's > %90 of the time prefer to be friends first and it takes time for them to feel safe enough to open up. She's already opened up with a lot of vulnerable things about herself or is the article referring to feeling safe to open up to an emotional relationship thus she "doesn't have feelings for me" because she hasn't opened up yet?

1a. I also thought she might be testing me to see if I'm a player or if I'll reject her. If she is I think it's a sub-conscious fearful thing (abusive marriage) not an intentional / unhealthy mind game.

1b. One article in particular states "We Need to Know You Want Us"....again sub-consciously she might be testing those waters????

2. Several of these articles also point out they need us to make the first moves and or check in on them. I'm fine with this but if she wants me to go away I don't want to be that guy that can't take a hint. BTW when I know she is in decompression time I text her things that don't demand a response like howdy, just thinking of you, hope you have a good day, goodnight etc. I wasn't planning on texting her today which won't raise any eyebrows as that has happened before. If I also don't text her tomorrow then that will be a new pattern and I'm sure she'll notice.....and in typing this I just thought of two hints she *MAY* have dropped last night.

2a. She mentioned which church service she will be at Sunday as there are multiple times.

2b. During one of our conversations we talked about a movie night and my place is kinda messy as I'm doing a room remodel. I sent her a picture and she laughed and said yeah that's about what mine looks like. I busted butt to get the remodel finish and get the house cleaned. The past week or so she has been doing (according to her own reports) house organizing. Last night she mentioned wanting to really get on her house organizing this weekend. (No kids this weekend) She flat out said I don't know why I didn't care about it last year but I do this year and I want to get it done. I take what she says as the truth. I don't think INFJ's mess around with hints like "I need to rearrange my sock drawer."

2c. She mentioned last night getting her out is a difficulty. Once she is out she says she has fun it's just that first step.

3. She's giving me the time of day. Almost every article I read said something along the lines of "if the INFJ is talking to you it's because you fit in the plan somewhere." Otherwise they would drop you soooo fast. She's also made some recommendation for things she's observed in me so my counselor and I are exploring those observations.

4. I saw a video on YouTube explaining INFJ's trust and saying I love you. Basically they already made a trust assessment from the first encounter and at least this person said if they never have to say the I love you words fine but their actions will be to love you to the moon and back.

5. Friend hugs. Several of the articles mentioned hugs. Always give the INFJ a hug and likely you'll have to be the one to initiate and likely it'll be awkward at first Don't stop.. I had determined to giver her the upper body friend hug last night but again her body language told me no go....perhaps I'm just over analyzing?

I read on another thread here (https://www.infjs.com/threads/help-me-with-infj-relationships.34589/) about the hot / cold thing. I haven't seen that yet but I'll consider myself forewarned that if I do see it and fade to black.

If I had to make a decision without any additional input after writing this (cathartic) I feel I should be patient.
Last night I was thinking fade to black.

Am I foolishly talking myself into being patient because I have higher hopes?

 

[TheDeathOfYouAndMe]

Not particularly addressing your situation, however, on the topic of friend zone. There is no such thing. When a female doesn't fancy you on that level she just doesn't fancy you on that level. No amount of pick up artistry or '' secrets '' to the female mind will change that. You just have to respect the lady's point of view and move on. Else you'll be waiting an awful long time.

 

[Ramjet]

Not particularly addressing your situation, however, on the topic of friend zone. There is no such thing. When a female doesn't fancy you on that level she just doesn't fancy you on that level. No amount of pick up artistry or '' secrets '' to the female mind will change that. You just have to respect the lady's point of view and move on. Else you'll be waiting an awful long time.

That line of thinking is what had me thinking to fade to black last night. Not so much against her as me. It hurts and someday some guy will come along and get the connection I longed for...That'll suck big time to be "friends" when that day happens.

 

[Wyote]

That'll suck big time to be "friends" when that day happens.

Stop being friends. Don't give yourself unnecessary pain.
You have the choice of how/where to direct your time.

 

[slant]

OK INFJ's I know you can't read her mind or look in a crystal ball I just need some advice here.
(BTW She claims to have tested INFJ and I know I tested ENTP)

Fade to black or be patient?

I met an INFJ through a mutual friend about a month ago. The friend said we would be like two peas in a pod and they were RIGHT!

We began talking via text because I was travelling and we covered a lot of ground (both older in 40's second marriage) like home life, past traumas, sex, religion, etc. She also established some boundaries with her kids etc. and actually I liked them and implemented the same with my kids in reverse. We also talked on the phone numerous times.

When I got back in town we had a dinner date and I thought it was awesome. No physical contact as we both have a strong Christian Faith.

I have never met someone I have had so much fun talking to. Yes she's beautiful but that faded away after the first date because the connection took front and center.

We talked and texted more and the following week had a lunch date with afternoon plans. At lunch she told me she just wants to be friends. She said she didn't know why because I checked all her boxes including being very handsome but there was no attraction for her. She said she would understand if I didn't want to do the afternoon activity. I said no friends is fine. You can't force attraction and if it's not there...it's not there.

(I said friends is fine because for me it is a starting point. Be friends first and then see what develops.)

She said she still wanted to do several of the activities we had talked about (one in particular) which struck me as a little odd because some of those activities especially that one she referenced is something you would probably do with a close friend/relationship not a casual friend? But then again I don't think INFJ's have casual friends.

The next week the texting was very minimal but I know she was also very, very busy and on top of that needs her decompression time.

This week she called me and we spoke for 2.5 hours on the phone. Again about vulnerable stuff....not the weather. I told her I thought she was one hell of a cool person and I really enjoyed talking to her.

Last night we got ice cream and now I'm confused. Every micro-expression I got from her was making me feel she didn't even want to be friends but fade to black. Now verbally she talked about something I was dealing with saying "Don't worry about forgetting. I'll keep reminding you." So her words were indicating continued friendship but her body language told me end of the line even as friends.

So I stared at the ceiling all night (not literally but several hours) thinking about all the articles I had read in the past three weeks caring for an INFJ and what I felt about the non-verbal cues I was getting.

1. Numerous articles say be patient. Healthy INFJ's > %90 of the time prefer to be friends first and it takes time for them to feel safe enough to open up. She's already opened up with a lot of vulnerable things about herself or is the article referring to feeling safe to open up to an emotional relationship thus she "doesn't have feelings for me" because she hasn't opened up yet?

1a. I also thought she might be testing me to see if I'm a player or if I'll reject her. If she is I think it's a sub-conscious fearful thing (abusive marriage) not an intentional / unhealthy mind game.

1b. One article in particular states "We Need to Know You Want Us"....again sub-consciously she might be testing those waters????

2. Several of these articles also point out they need us to make the first moves and or check in on them. I'm fine with this but if she wants me to go away I don't want to be that guy that can't take a hint. BTW when I know she is in decompression time I text her things that don't demand a response like howdy, just thinking of you, hope you have a good day, goodnight etc. I wasn't planning on texting her today which won't raise any eyebrows as that has happened before. If I also don't text her tomorrow then that will be a new pattern and I'm sure she'll notice.....and in typing this I just thought of two hints she *MAY* have dropped last night.

2a. She mentioned which church service she will be at Sunday as there are multiple times.

2b. During one of our conversations we talked about a movie night and my place is kinda messy as I'm doing a room remodel. I sent her a picture and she laughed and said yeah that's about what mine looks like. I busted butt to get the remodel finish and get the house cleaned. The past week or so she has been doing (according to her own reports) house organizing. Last night she mentioned wanting to really get on her house organizing this weekend. (No kids this weekend) She flat out said I don't know why I didn't care about it last year but I do this year and I want to get it done. I take what she says as the truth. I don't think INFJ's mess around with hints like "I need to rearrange my sock drawer."

2c. She mentioned last night getting her out is a difficulty. Once she is out she says she has fun it's just that first step.

3. She's giving me the time of day. Almost every article I read said something along the lines of "if the INFJ is talking to you it's because you fit in the plan somewhere." Otherwise they would drop you soooo fast. She's also made some recommendation for things she's observed in me so my counselor and I are exploring those observations.

4. I saw a video on YouTube explaining INFJ's trust and saying I love you. Basically they already made a trust assessment from the first encounter and at least this person said if they never have to say the I love you words fine but their actions will be to love you to the moon and back.

5. Friend hugs. Several of the articles mentioned hugs. Always give the INFJ a hug and likely you'll have to be the one to initiate and likely it'll be awkward at first Don't stop.. I had determined to giver her the upper body friend hug last night but again her body language told me no go....perhaps I'm just over analyzing?

I read on another thread here (https://www.infjs.com/threads/help-me-with-infj-relationships.34589/) about the hot / cold thing. I haven't seen that yet but I'll consider myself forewarned that if I do see it and fade to black.

If I had to make a decision without any additional input after writing this (cathartic) I feel I should be patient.
Last night I was thinking fade to black.

Am I foolishly talking myself into being patient because I have higher hopes?

I'm not sure there is a clear answer here, which is why you're unsure.

Sometimes when I read people's posts like these looking for advice it's evident that they want a certain outcome so badly that they are ignoring facts of the situation in order to remain in their fantasy.

I'm not sure that you are doing that. You seem to have a realistic understanding that it would be bad to try to "convince" somebody to want to date you. You don't seem especially desperate, and it does sound like the two of you have a genuine connection.

However.

There is a phrase "bad timing" that can come into play in situations like these. I think if she interested in you, she isn't available for a relationship right now. I would focus on dating other people and if you feel you can be friends with her, do it. If you can't maybe you'll reconnect later. Have faith that she would reach out if she changed her mind.

 

[aeon]

You’re thinking about this way too much. Too much, because she already gave you an answer.

She’s not interested in a relationship beyond friendship.

Take her at her word, and accept what she has said.

You’ve got an opportunity to be friends with someone. Keep pressing, and you’ll fuck that up.

If you think something else is going on beyond what she said because of an article you read, congratulations, you just became a creep, the kind of guy women have learned to be wary of, and for good reason.

Don’t be a creep.

No means no.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Ramjet]

I'm not sure there is a clear answer here, which is why you're unsure.

Sometimes when I read people's posts like these looking for advice it's evident that they want a certain outcome so badly that they are ignoring facts of the situation in order to remain in their fantasy.

I'm not sure that you are doing that. You seem to have a realistic understanding that it would be bad to try to "convince" somebody to want to date you. You don't seem especially desperate, and it does sound like the two of you have a genuine connection.

However.

There is a phrase "bad timing" that can come into play in situations like these. I think if she interested in you, she isn't available for a relationship right now. I would focus on dating other people and if you feel you can be friends with her, do it. If you can't maybe you'll reconnect later. Have faith that she would reach out if she changed her mind.

Thank You! She has reached out to me before in terms of initiating contact when I didn't send her any message needing a reply so I will as you say keep that faith. But yeah the input from everyone here seems to be let it go. Don't slam the door just let it go.

 

[philostam]

Give it time. I was also friends with my INFJs for cca 6 months before we took it further.

If you enjoy talking and spending time with her, just do it. Don't overthink it. You'll see what happens. I do think it's possible to develop feelings/attraction later in the relationship.

PS: I guess it depends on how efficient and results-driven you are.

 

[philostam]

She’s not interested in a relationship beyond friendship.

Take her at her word, and accept what she has said.

I don't think that's always true. People are complex. They sometimes say things they don't completely believe/mean. Especially that early in a relationship. If you asked me what do I think about my now long term girlfriend after 1 week, I would probably say "she's cool, but not attracted to her".

Sometimes the best thing is not to ask/talk about it. It will come out eventually.

Also, I think attraction in very unreliable. It's animalistic and works on subconscious level. Getting along with someone in conversation is much better predictor for me. Usually if a man and woman get along really well and spend a lot of time together as friends, attraction will develop.

Anyway, my advice is don't give up. You are not a "creep". She seems to enjoy talking with you. Accept what she said for the time being and re-evaluate after a while.

 

[aeon]

I don't think that's always true. People are complex. They sometimes say things they don't completely believe/mean. Especially that early in a relationship. If you asked me what do I think about my now long term girlfriend after 1 week, I would probably say "she's cool, but not attracted to her".

Sometimes the best thing is not to ask/talk about it. It will come out eventually.

Also, I think attraction in very unreliable. It's animalistic and works on subconscious level. Getting along with someone in conversation is much better predictor for me. Usually if a man and woman get along really well and spend a lot of time together as friends, attraction will develop.

Anyway, my advice is don't give up. You are not a "creep". She seems to enjoy talking with you. Accept what she said for the time being and re-evaluate after a while.

This is all fair, and as a double-demi, doubly so.

At the same time, the OP seems goal-oriented in the original post, to the degree that the woman’s clearly-stated choice would be set aside in furtherance of OP’s desired outcome. To me, that’s creepy, because consent is paramount.

Also, I tend toward a philosophy of abundance—be friends if that’s acceptable, but also move on and explore other potential opportunities.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Ramjet]

I don't think that's always true. People are complex. They sometimes say things they don't completely believe/mean. Especially that early in a relationship. If you asked me what do I think about my now long term girlfriend after 1 week, I would probably say "she's cool, but not attracted to her".

Sometimes the best thing is not to ask/talk about it. It will come out eventually.

Also, I think attraction in very unreliable. It's animalistic and works on subconscious level. Getting along with someone in conversation is much better predictor for me. Usually if a man and woman get along really well and spend a lot of time together as friends, attraction will develop.

Anyway, my advice is don't give up. You are not a "creep". She seems to enjoy talking with you. Accept what she said for the time being and re-evaluate after a while.

So that's interesting. 6 months is the boundary she put in place before she would let kids meet me. I liked that boundary and implemented the reverse.
Last night she wanted to give something to my daughter and I brought up the concern of violating her own boundary rule. She said no her kids know about me and that we're friends.
To her it wasn't a violation to know the gift was from a friend just actually meeting and hanging out is what she didn't want to do for six months.
She further elaborated that the 6 month rule was a good one to filter people out with as well. If they can't hang around that long not a good sign.

I mean in some regards I don't have any girls knocking down my door to turn away and while I'm not sure what to think exactly I'm not going batty with teenage she loves me....she loves me not craziness.

So just being chill is something I could do for awhile.

 

[philostam]

Yeah, 6 months is good. People are not immovable objects. Sometimes it just takes time to form an opinion on something or someone.

It's like when you're rejected for a job you just KNOW you would excel at. If you convince them and you feel in it your bones you're right for it, you should try again and show some persistence. Sometimes the other party just needs time to realize what you already know.

Also, there's no harm in asking after a while why specifically she wants to remain just friends.

 

[philostam]

So that's interesting. 6 months is the boundary she put in place before she would let kids meet me. I liked that boundary and implemented the reverse.
Last night she wanted to give something to my daughter and I brought up the concern of violating her own boundary rule. She said no her kids know about me and that we're friends.
To her it wasn't a violation to know the gift was from a friend just actually meeting and hanging out is what she didn't want to do for six months.
She further elaborated that the 6 month rule was a good one to filter people out with as well. If they can't hang around that long not a good sign.

I mean in some regards I don't have any girls knocking down my door to turn away and while I'm not sure what to think exactly I'm not going batty with teenage she loves me....she loves me not craziness.

So just being chill is something I could do for awhile.

Yeah, excactly. You seem chill enough. Play it cool and enjoy your time together. Don't mention it for a few weeks/months, you don't wanna be rejected twice lol. Give it time and then you can bring it up again after 6 months.

If she still says no, then I'd take it more definitively. And in this case you can decide if you're capable of remaining just friends or not...

Also people usually know deep down if they have a chance... I mean if you posses certain bit of self honesty and don't delude yourself. Trust your gut.

 

[Ramjet]

Also people usually know deep down if they have a chance... I mean if you posses certain bit of self honesty and don't delude yourself. Trust your gut.[/QUOTE]

That's the thing...deep down my gut tells me she actually interested just very cautious. I like that plan. In 6 months we'll see if anything changes.

 

[uuu]

In my experience, "I just want to be friends" has only ever meant exactly that—that she had no interest in a romantic relationship and would never develop interest in it. Some people want to be friends first before becoming romantically involved, but when this is the case, they usually make it crystal clear: "I'm interested in you too, but is it alright if we take things a little slowly?"

Your 6 months plan seems like a good idea.

 

[Enso]

(I said friends is fine because for me it is a starting point. Be friends first and then see what develops.)

Nah, it's friends imo. You've got a conflict between intimacy and desire. The fact that your talking about vulnerable/intimate things on the phone for 2.5 hours does not equate to desire and likely never will. Whether INFJ's like sex or not, it is linked to reproduction and other necessary relationship goals so without desire it's a very vanilla ride, if you happen to be one of those Christian couples that stay celibate until marriage that's great but they are usually an entirely different dynamic. Having 10 dates with no sexual desire is just awkward and it looks like your in that category. But, keep in mind having an awesome lifelong friend can be much much more powerful than a romantic relationship, especially to get you through the hard times of romantic relationships.

 

[Matty]

Seems weird hanging around. Men and women being friends is also weird.

 

[aeon]

The way desire works is very paradoxical and especially for feminists who "don't want to be owned by a man" when in reality those exact mechanisms can be what attracts women to men - go figure.

The world is a big tangled ball of contradictions, paradoxes, and inconsistency the moment you choose to believe anything, or think you have some kind of grasp on how things work. Quote Whitman about multitudes, and whatnot.

Whether INFJ's like sex or not, it is linked to reproduction and other necessary relationship goals so without desire it's a very vanilla ride, if you happen to be one of those Christian couples that stay celibate until marriage that's great but they are usually an entirely different dynamic. Having 10 dates with no sexual desire is just awkward and it looks like your in that category.

Said like an allo. Realize that different people have different experiences of romantic and sexual attraction, and they are not wrong. What is the right way for any given person, is not the right way for all. That’s why putting a number on such things only serves to invalidate individual people’s needs and experience, especially so when it is other than the cultural norm.

But, keep in mind having an awesome lifelong friend can be much much more powerful than a romantic relationship, especially to get you through the hard times of romantic relationships.

They’re not mutually exclusive, and I think and feel that friendship is the best foundation for a rewarding romantic and sexual relationship (as each would define and experience that for themselves).

As a guy the main rule for developing desire is having the girl chase you haha.

You do you, but in my experience, human relationships are each their own thing—rules don’t help much past childhood.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[aeon]

Men and women being friends is also weird.

Should I take that to mean you don’t think it possible for a man and a woman to have a fully platonic, but close friendship? Or that you do think it possible, but consider it outside of that which is normative, for whatever reason?

Recent discussion on this very topic on Reddit was lively, to say the least.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Matty]

Should I take that to mean you don’t think it possible for a man and a woman to have a fully platonic, but close friendship? Or that you do think it possible, but consider it outside of that which is normative, for whatever reason?

Recent discussion on this very topic on Reddit was lively, to say the least.

Cheers,
Ian

I think non intimate friendships between men and women are going to be awkward and ultimately unstable.

Personally, I only have relationships with women, and friendships with men. Outside that, I'm affable in a detached connection which could be called "civil acquaintance."