DnD 4E Combat Question... | INFJ Forum

DnD 4E Combat Question...

Discussion in 'Imagination Exercises' started by Shai Gar, Jan 29, 2010.

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  1. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I'm building a combat sequence and creating a character specifically to withstand the rigors of my players (I'm the DM). Last week I made a level 30, when were level 12. They first killed my character with ease, dinged 12 times from the XP, proceeded to loot the corpse, and rape the body.

    I'm serious about raping the body...

    They were f*cking INFPs for f*cks sake.

    They had male characters, and the NPC which they raped was in the body of a 13 year old male elemental.

    After raping the body, they chopped off the arms and legs. The Longtooth Shifter made stew out of one leg, for the Bugbear and Revenant, salting the other limbs for later.
    The head was put on a spike made from his OWN FUCKING BONES.



    Which is why I need to optimise this character to the moon and back.
    The NPC needs to be a damn well all powerful (comparitively) Arch-Angel (in reality level 30 Exalted Angel) for the DemiGod of Slaughter.





    I have a Wilden Invoker with the following abilities.

    In my surprise round I want to attack with the Standard Attack, Daily Power, Fires of the Silver Gates.
    My question is, would the following formula work within the game dynamics? If not, where and how am I getting it wrong?

    * Standard Action
     
    #1 Shai Gar, Jan 29, 2010
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  2. VH

    VH Variable Hybrid

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    I have no idea. I've never played or run anything beyond the teen levels. It looks like overpowered versions of the stuff I've played and/run, but other than that I couldn't critique any of this very well.

    My best guess is that I try to keep things within +/-5 of the standard for the level. For instance, level 10 is (+5 for half level) + (+5 for Stats and specials like Items) = 10, therefore I would set up the game around +5 to +15 or 15 to 25 Defense.

    For a level 30, I would assume you'd want to base your attack and defense numbers between +25 to +35 or 35 to 45 Defenses.

    As far as damage and HP, I generally plan for 5 to 10 attacks from PCs to kill standard NPCs. For example, if the PCs are averaging 10 points with At Will Powers, then I stock the bad guys with 50 to 100 HP. For bosses, I usually double this. I also stock the bad guys with enough damage to on average kill the PCs in 5 to 10 hits, for instance, if the PCs average 100 HP, then I have my bad guys average 10 to 20 points per hit.

    Also, I tend to consider 3 minions as 1 NPC, and 1 boss as 3 NPCs. I stock my encounters with roughly 1-2 NPCs per player. If I have 4 players, then I stock between 4-8 NPCs worth of bad guys in an encounter.

    I don't know how that would translate to level 30, but I try to custom balance my games so the players have the advantage of the tactics and Encounter/Daily Powers. If they play well, they are likely to win. If they play poorly, they will lose/die. So far, this formula has proven to be challenging enough to my players to keep games fun, but rarely wipe them out. I reckon if you use these proportions, the games should be fun for everyone involved.
     
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  3. VH

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    If you want to just pwn them, then make your own Encounter and Daily Powers that give your main NPC boss the ability to do enough damage to one shot the players, or do half damage if they save with a Daily - Half their HP, or 1/4 their HP if they save (aka the boss misses).

    That should probably give them 5 rounds to kill the boss or get wiped out.

    If you don't want to make your own stuff up, just drop a dozen level 30 red dragons on them. If they live that, you've given them too much stuff.
     
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  4. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I've given them nothing so far... They're just really good players and this is my first time as a DM, after only just learning about how to play DnD.
    This character is for nothing more than giving them some information.

    my question is more, is that how cumulative effects work?
     
  5. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    The staff/gloves will add nothing to your ongoing damage if that is what you're thinking. "Damage rolls" only refers to damage done after a successful attack roll, or unsuccessful attack roll if your power has something like "half damage." However, the staff/gloves will add damage to the initial attack. I don't see why you would need to do that if you're fighting level 12 characters though, you should kill all but defenders and barbarians outright with a level 30 shot (and you won't miss).

    Otherwise, your damage bonuses will stack with the gloves. The gloves give untyped damage boosts while the staff gives an item bonus.

    Staff fighting does nothing for implements as far as attacking.

    All your attack bonuses will stack. Weapon Expertise is an untyped bonus.
     
    #5 Duty, Jan 29, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2010
  6. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    It's an Implement, I've got Staffs as an Implement. They're also now level 24 after having dingged 12 times.
     
  7. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    It only makes staves count as a double weapon for melee fighting. No benefit to implement attacks.
     
  8. VH

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    Maybe you should try running a level 1 campaign first?

    It helps to learn the rules as they unfold.
     
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  9. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    Probably is a good idea to do this. If you want to level fast, then level once per every 2-3 encounters. It gets people up to higher levels fast but lets you learn along the way.
     
  10. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    This was compiled using Character Creator. Nothing I've put up there in picture form is in question because it's all in the rules.

    What I'm questioning is the cumulative effects, that is ALL I am questioning.
     
  11. Duty

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    Yes, the cumulative effects stack for the initial dose of radiant damage.

    I'm not saying staff fighting is against the rules, I'm just saying it gives you no benefit with implement attacks, only melee ones. If you want your Invoker to be able to melee fight then there is no problem. You said you wanted to optimize though, and I'm sure there are better feats you could take for a spellcasting controller.
     
  12. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I will be running a smaller campaign after this. this one is just a dungeon run to test waters.
     
  13. VH

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    Okay, let me try to explain what we are trying to say in ENTP-speak... "yer doin it wrong"

    It doesn't matter if the level 5,000 weapon stacks with the level 4,000 item and the level 10,000 stats. The high level rules exist only for games where players have trudged through all the levels before them. If your players are earning a level every 2-3 adventures (which consists of several encounters), they're leveling VERY fast. If they're level 30, that should be a minimum of 60-90 weeks of gaming. Clearly, you're not approaching the game from this perspective if your players gain a dozen levels in one kill.
     
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  14. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Aye, but this isn't an NPC boss fight.

    I should rephrase. I'm looking to optimise my character for blunt initial fighting. There are three PCs:
    Bugbear Barbarian - goes into rage immediately, cannot talk to him once he does that. Need to take him out (incapacitate) first because he's a real Damage machine
    Revenant Assassin - Cannot be made to fear, or intimidated. Need to take him out of commission as well so that I can focus on one character.
    Longtooth Shifter Warden - I can intimidate him once I've knocked the others for six.

    My purpose is to swiftly dispose of the Bugbear and Revenant so that I can get to the Shifter. I don't want to draw this out, and there'll be no other characters.
     
  15. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    No shit. This is not a question on how I should control the game, merely the mechanics. For the next game it'll be done slower. For this game there were several house rules I wanted to test out. They're story/combat based and currently have nothing to do with this necessary combat to shut the PCs the fuck up.
     
  16. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Okay, you've struck the heart of my question... not dead on, but you nicked it.

    If I get no benefit with implement attacks, why does it say, under "Effect:"

    If I can only use it in a melee attack, why is it implying that I can use it with this power?

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Duty

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    You're using the staff as an implement...you're channeling your spells through it. You still get the staff's bonuses as bonuses to implement attacks as well as weapon attacks. The same goes with your items...any attacks that deal radiant damage will trigger them.

    Weapon attacks are a different thing altogether. A weapon attack is when you're beating something over the head with your staff. Staff Fighting makes it so attacks that have wording that says things like "off hand attack" or "you must be wielding a weapon in both hands" permissible. Fighters, rangers, and barbarians have a lot of attacks of this sort. Staff Fighting gives no benefit to implements, because you're channeling a spell through your staff 10 squares away, not beating it with the off-hand portion of your staff.


    What that stat is telling you then, is that when you're using this spell, with your equipped implement (+6 Quarterstaff), you have X to hit and do Y damage.
     
    #17 Duty, Jan 30, 2010
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  18. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    which is which?

    In the context on that weapon and that spell. How do I read the breakdown of how much damage that weapon will do, and what goes as a plus "to hit"
     
    #18 Shai Gar, Jan 30, 2010
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  19. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    Well, when you're casting spells you're using your staff as an implement. When you're beating things over the head in melee you're using it as a melee weapon. If you threw it at something then you'd be using it as an improvised thrown weapon.

    I'm leaving for my own DnD game in 10 minutes btw. Minotaur Fighter philosopher rawr.
     
    #19 Duty, Jan 30, 2010
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  20. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    By +to hit I mean "attack bonus." You get the spell's casting stat (wisdom) + half your level + your weapon's enhancement bonus + feat bonuses + miscellaneous and NO proficiency bonus (which melee weapons, when used for melee attacks, all get... +2 for axes, hammers, simple and martial weapons, +3 for superior weapons that are not axes and hammers).

    Damage is 7d6 for the spell, +22 for wisdom, +6 for your staff's bonus. Because this spell does radiant damage on its initial hit, you would get another +6 from the staff, and the damage bonus from the gloves if you used it. So, 7d6+34+gloves+other things you add.


    Determining stacking is easy in 4.0. If something says "item bonus to damage," then you get no more item bonuses to damage, but can add "feat bonus to damage." If it doesn't specify type, it autostacks.
     
    #20 Duty, Jan 30, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2010
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