Divine or Cosmic providence? | INFJ Forum

Divine or Cosmic providence?

Lark

Rothchildian Agent
May 9, 2011
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Do you think that if you want something then thinking about it and deliberatively seeking it will result in success or do you believe in any of the religious or philosophical precepts, like divine providence or zen, which suggest that you have to transcend your desires and then they will be delivered or accomplished with ease?
 
This is an interesting concept. There seems to be valid data that suggests people getting together and focusing their thoughts can actually influence outcomes.

This includes prayer but prayer certainly is not where it stops.

As a person that subscribes mostly to rational scientific thought, this is intensely interesting to me. As you know I do not believe in a higher power "watching" over mankind though I do believe in the possibility of being observed either by an autonomous computer program or something of the like. I do not believe and never will believe in a magical being like the "God" mentioned of in the Bible. Still it does seem as if group focus and meditation to include prayer does actually influence real world things.
 
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This is an interesting concept. There seems to be valid data that suggests people getting together and focusing their thoughts can actually influence outcomes.

This includes prayer but prayer certainly is not where it stops.

As a person that subscribes mostly to rational scientific thought, this is intensely interesting to me. As you know I do not believe in a higher power "watching" over mankind though I do believe in the possibility of being observed either by an autonomous computer program or something of the like. I do not believe and never will believe in a magical being like the "God" mentioned of in the Bible. Still it does seem as if group focus and meditation to include prayer does actually influence real world things.

I was thinking of the paradoxical approaches to things I'd read about and even experienced, like "I wasnt looking for love when I found you" or that appearing too interested in someone seems like desperation but appear uninterested could clinch the relationship, when I read Zen and The Art of Archery the author talks about the Zen archers appearing to fire bows without the precision targetting of western archers but scoring bulls eyes from greater range or with greater difficulty, that could be artistic or literary licence though.
 
Ahhh.... in that case no. Or even if true it would be impossible to prove.
 
Ahhh.... in that case no. Or even if true it would be impossible to prove.

What you were saying about prayer was interesting too, I'm not sure that any sophisticated theist would believe in the description of the higher power you describe, as I've read and thought about religion I've come to appreciate its relationship to atheism, the two go together and dont exist independently one of the other. In my opinion at least.

Although in my reading about divine providence it is not so much about petition of the divine, it actively tries to discourage that, you may make known what you want but you dont give it any thought beyond that and if it is divinely ordained it will happen. Its a little like believing in the other since of the word, not a question of deciding that God exists but deciding you trust God, there is a equivocal relationship between friends or partners in everyday life, there's no question of the other existing but you need to believe/trust in them to have any sort of relationship with them. Another way would be say you rely upon them or can rely upon them or find them reliable.

The only thing I would say about this is that which is kind of curious is that there have been things I've boldy petitioned God about which have apparently come to pass, from the minor to the relative to myself more major, I've really learned the lesson of being careful what you ask for and that there's two tradgedies in life, one not to get your own desire and another to get it. Its often something which requires a lot of reflection, discernment and careful anticipation to make any good of it.

Two or three times I had relationship success with people which was seriously against the odds, I mean people who were totally and utterly out of my league but who I'd petitioned and appealed and low and behold it came to pass but I sabotaged it all in some frankly baffling ways, I was just totally unprepared for what I'd willed to actually come to pass. One of the situations steming from that I truly regret.
 
I believe there is a god, for certain reasons. However, I don't put my faith in the Christian God or Allah, so I guess that makes me a Deist. As far as divine intervention, I'm not really sure. I don't believe in miracles or any of that, but there are some coincidences that do seem very odd so maybe there is divine providence? Right now I'm leaning toward no though.
 
I was thinking of the paradoxical approaches to things I'd read about and even experienced, like "I wasnt looking for love when I found you" or that appearing too interested in someone seems like desperation but appear uninterested could clinch the relationship, when I read Zen and The Art of Archery the author talks about the Zen archers appearing to fire bows without the precision targetting of western archers but scoring bulls eyes from greater range or with greater difficulty, that could be artistic or literary licence though.

That concept is not unusual. The idea behind that zen style of archery is that you concentrate on yourself and therefore the target doesn't matter. Correct shooting is correct hitting. The idea actually has parallels in several sports, such as basketball and golf. Form and being "in the zone" is everything there. This is why when you shoot a good basket you know it is going in as soon as the ball leaves your hand.
 
This is an interesting concept. There seems to be valid data that suggests people getting together and focusing their thoughts can actually influence outcomes.

This includes prayer but prayer certainly is not where it stops.

As a person that subscribes mostly to rational scientific thought, this is intensely interesting to me. As you know I do not believe in a higher power "watching" over mankind though I do believe in the possibility of being observed either by an autonomous computer program or something of the like. I do not believe and never will believe in a magical being like the "God" mentioned of in the Bible. Still it does seem as if group focus and meditation to include prayer does actually influence real world things.

What you were saying about prayer was interesting too, I'm not sure that any sophisticated theist would believe in the description of the higher power you describe, as I've read and thought about religion I've come to appreciate its relationship to atheism, the two go together and dont exist independently one of the other. In my opinion at least.

Although in my reading about divine providence it is not so much about petition of the divine, it actively tries to discourage that, you may make known what you want but you dont give it any thought beyond that and if it is divinely ordained it will happen. Its a little like believing in the other since of the word, not a question of deciding that God exists but deciding you trust God, there is a equivocal relationship between friends or partners in everyday life, there's no question of the other existing but you need to believe/trust in them to have any sort of relationship with them. Another way would be say you rely upon them or can rely upon them or find them reliable.

The only thing I would say about this is that which is kind of curious is that there have been things I've boldy petitioned God about which have apparently come to pass, from the minor to the relative to myself more major, I've really learned the lesson of being careful what you ask for and that there's two tradgedies in life, one not to get your own desire and another to get it. Its often something which requires a lot of reflection, discernment and careful anticipation to make any good of it.

Two or three times I had relationship success with people which was seriously against the odds, I mean people who were totally and utterly out of my league but who I'd petitioned and appealed and low and behold it came to pass but I sabotaged it all in some frankly baffling ways, I was just totally unprepared for what I'd willed to actually come to pass. One of the situations steming from that I truly regret.
Just posted a short documentary talking about just such effects that our consciousness has on the world around us, they also specifically talk about the large group prayer/meditations and the actual measured effects they have encountered.
http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27025&page=92&p=788063&viewfull=1#post788063