Commodity fetishism

[SoulPatcher]

Believe it or not, I have calmed down since my twenties in terms of vocalizing and letting my fairness level effect me...perhaps I have grown apathetic...certainly have been more realistic about my power to change anything as one person. IDK, life has beat me down somewhat...I know I am more cynical.

You're still very idealistic. And that's not a bad thing.

And yes, I am very aware of the minority being stepped on...what to do? You just have to except that it is shit...and try to work with the power you have, which isn't much.

Or think of a better design. Sure, millions tried but it doesn't harm to play more what-ifs .

You don't have to think about it as shit, BTW. As far as I'm concerned, it's a reverse side of competition. Yes, people are trying to grab power and exploit each other, but it's the same urge that pushes us to discover and expand boundaries. We are not fallen angels, we are ascended apes. If we had the harmony and absolute collectivism like in an ant colony, we would've stayed ants.

And IDK, I feel somehow that as the computing power grows, the problems with software will work itself out...will the computers reach a point to write it's own software? Will there be a Zero point where self-awareness is reached?

My guess here is as good as yours, but my answers would be yes to the first question ("write its own software") within limits, and probably no to the second. Why no - because reaching consciousness is not a bug, it is something that has to be painstakingly constructed, and I don't see who would work on that. Already today you have structures which work in a way somewhat similar to that of living creatures (e.g. so called neural networks). But it's still completely different.

One of my favourite topics, BTW. I always compare it to the history of aviation. Do you have to emulate a bird to enable flight? Probably not, you just need the functionality. That said, the pioneers of aviation did put much effort into scrutinising real birds, as a use case.

I know that is a bit sci-fi-ish, but why not? We still to this day do not understand how the neurons in the human mind work...is our consciousness because of our wiring or is it because we have a "soul"? I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens in the next decade or so. Anyhow, I don't know what would happen if we had at our disposal a computer that was able to tell you how to solve world hunger ( step one...), or what would happen to the population if the major diseases of the world were cured?

The hunger is more of an economic problem, the diseases is kind of an umbrella term, it's not one problem but many. I'm sure that the computing power will help with both, yes.

That is why I say it will be a "renaissance", because we as humans are going to either blatantly ignore the recommendations given to us and continue to destroy ourselves and our planet or the way we think will have to drastically change, and then, maybe, perhaps, we will reach a point to where mankind CAN actually work together as one species without trying to gain the most power via the destruction of his neighbor.

Yes, this is something I agree with. Impartial perspective will have to open eyes. It's a question how it can be reached.

 

[jupiterswoon]

Believe it or not, I have calmed down since my twenties in terms of vocalizing and letting my fairness level effect me...perhaps I have grown apathetic...certainly have been more realistic about my power to change anything as one person. IDK, life has beat me down somewhat...I know I am more cynical.
And yes, I am very aware of the minority being stepped on...what to do?
You just have to except that it is shit...and try to work with the power you have, which isn't much.
And IDK, I feel somehow that as the computing power grows, the problems with software will work itself out...will the computers reach a point to write it's own software? Will there be a Zero point where self-awareness is reached? I know that is a bit sci-fi-ish, but why not? We still to this day do not understand how the neurons in the human mind work...is our consciousness because of our wiring or is it because we have a "soul"? I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens in the next decade or so. Anyhow, I don't know what would happen if we had at our disposal a computer that was able to tell you how to solve world hunger ( step one...), or what would happen to the population if the major diseases of the world were cured? That is why I say it will be a "renaissance", because we as humans are going to either blatantly ignore the recommendations given to us and continue to destroy ourselves and our planet or the way we think will have to drastically change, and then, maybe, perhaps, we will reach a point to where mankind CAN actually work together as one species without trying to gain the most power via the destruction of his neighbor.

It's a relief that you say you grew out of this feeling- it has been somewhat overwhelming to me.

 

[Phoenix Down]

I don't think we teach fairness as much as we do social contract.
We just simplify this concept into fairness. Gotta keep it simple for the kids


Forgive me if I sound dumb, since I didn't feel like reading the entire thread.

 

[Skarekrow]

It's a relief that you say you grew out of this feeling- it has been somewhat overwhelming to me.

I don't know that I grew out of this feeling per say...more that I have either grown apathetic to the lack of power I have as a single person (and being an INFJ that means I really don't want to belong to any group that has more power to take said action), or I am just more cynical and pessimistic, which isn't necessarily a good thing.
Either way, the journey to this point wasn't fun...there has been a lot of falling on one's face...a lot of disappointment and throwing of one's hands in the air in defeat.
I still hold this feeling at the core of my being, but I don't know which is worse, having this wrong feeling of "fairness" and the will to try and change it...or having this feeling within you and feeling frustrated at the acceptance that you cannot change anything?

I don't think we teach fairness as much as we do social contract.
We just simplify this concept into fairness. Gotta keep it simple for the kids


Forgive me if I sound dumb, since I didn't feel like reading the entire thread.

You don't sound dumb.
I agree that fairness should still be taught as a value to children...but this ideal has been changed in the past few decades.
The ability to "lose" has almost been eliminated...now all the kids get a trophy for participation, no matter if they win or lose. I'm not saying that we should be teaching our children that they must win at all costs, because I feel that is wrong too, nor should children be looked down upon for losing. But isn't a participation trophy (just as an example) setting them up for further disappointment in the future when they do truly "lose" and are not rewarded just by participating in life?

 

[Phoenix Down]

I don't know that I grew out of this feeling per say...more that I have either grown apathetic to the lack of power I have as a single person (and being an INFJ that means I really don't want to belong to any group that has more power to take said action), or I am just more cynical and pessimistic, which isn't necessarily a good thing.
Either way, the journey to this point wasn't fun...there has been a lot of falling on one's face...a lot of disappointment and throwing of one's hands in the air in defeat.
I still hold this feeling at the core of my being, but I don't know which is worse, having this wrong feeling of "fairness" and the will to try and change it...or having this feeling within you and feeling frustrated at the acceptance that you cannot change anything?

You don't sound dumb.
I agree that fairness should still be taught as a value to children...but this ideal has been changed in the past few decades.
The ability to "lose" has almost been eliminated...now all the kids get a trophy for participation, no matter if they win or lose. I'm not saying that we should be teaching our children that they must win at all costs, because I feel that is wrong too, nor should children be looked down upon for losing. But isn't a participation trophy (just as an example) setting them up for further disappointment in the future when they do truly "lose" and are not rewarded just by participating in life?

I think kids catch on to what we're doing with the participation trophies eventually. And I don't think it's particularly harmful to have consolation prizes either: it encourages kids to keep trying. And that's important. And perhaps parents just want their money's worth in cheap plastic... But it can be used as a teaching tool.

I feel the world is fair. Actually. Not in the sense that we have some sort universal equality, but in the sense that everything has equity. Just because someone else has something we want doesn't mean we didn't get anything, we just got something different.

That isn't to say people don't die young or that misunderstandings don't happen and nothing bad ever happens to good people. But we still have volitions of our own. And we do what we can with what we have, whatever that may be.

 

[Skarekrow]

I think kids catch on to what we're doing with the participation trophies eventually. And I don't think it's particularly harmful to have consolation prizes either: it encourages kids to keep trying. And that's important. And perhaps parents just want their money's worth in cheap plastic... But it can be used as a teaching tool.

I feel the world is fair. Actually. Not in the sense that we have some sort universal equality, but in the sense that everything has equity. Just because someone else has something we want doesn't mean we didn't get anything, we just got something different.

That isn't to say people don't die young or that misunderstandings don't happen and nothing bad ever happens to good people. But we still have volitions of our own. And we do what we can with what we have, whatever that may be.

Well said.
My personal mantra that I constantly remind myself of is "We are all doing the best we can with what we have." Which is a good reminder when someone irritates you by doing something that you deem "stupid". Yes, we all have our own positive aspects, and our negative...and that dictates to some extent how we react and deal with certain situations...but it is difficult to keep it as more than a fleeting thought (at least for me) when out and about in the real world.
It does encourage kids to keep trying...but I also see so many people who feel entitled....I mean everyone does to a certain extent...but it seems to have gotten much worse in the past decade or so, in particular with those who graduated HS in that time period and just before...those after the Gen-X group.
This instilled sense of "I am entitled to this or that" without earning it, without working for it...is an "unfair" thinking process and I can only see it creating a larger sense of "the world in unfair" whether this is justified or not.

 

[Phoenix Down]

Well said.
My personal mantra that I constantly remind myself of is "We are all doing the best we can with what we have." Which is a good reminder when someone irritates you by doing something that you deem "stupid". Yes, we all have our own positive aspects, and our negative...and that dictates to some extent how we react and deal with certain situations...but it is difficult to keep it as more than a fleeting thought (at least for me) when out and about in the real world.
It does encourage kids to keep trying...but I also see so many people who feel entitled....I mean everyone does to a certain extent...but it seems to have gotten much worse in the past decade or so, in particular with those who graduated HS in that time period and just before...those after the Gen-X group.
This instilled sense of "I am entitled to this or that" without earning it, without working for it...is an "unfair" thinking process and I can only see it creating a larger sense of "the world in unfair" whether this is justified or not.

Excuse me if I seem rude, but I don't think It's completely fair to hate on gen Y. And I don't appreciate sweeping statements about groups of people I'm part of. Sure, there are a lot of annoying self absorbed kids my age, but I hate being I'm full of myself just because I grew up in a certain time. (I'm sure that wasn't your intent)

The funny thing is, it's hard for me to know if I'm different, or special. Because that's what everyone else claims and appearently they're self entitled. But I work very hard for what I have and am just grateful I'm where I am today. But I believe I owe everything I have to my parents and everyone who has helped raise me (like teachers and doctors and such). You see I wouldn't be where I am today if my parents didn't raise me the way they did. Because that influences what descisions I've made and that influences what I've encountered. Well I didn't pick my circumstances, and neither did my peers. I'm just saying it's not all their fault.

And I really don't mean any disrespect.

 

[Skarekrow]

Excuse me if I seem rude, but I don't think It's completely fair to hate on gen Y. And I don't appreciate sweeping statements about groups of people I'm part of. Sure, there are a lot of annoying self absorbed kids my age, but I hate being I'm full of myself just because I grew up in a certain time. (I'm sure that wasn't your intent)

The funny thing is, it's hard for me to know if I'm different, or special. Because that's what everyone else claims and appearently they're self entitled. But I work very hard for what I have and am just grateful I'm where I am today. But I believe I owe everything I have to my parents and everyone who has helped raise me (like teachers and doctors and such). You see I wouldn't be where I am today if my parents didn't raise me the way they did. Because that influences what descisions I've made and that influences what I've encountered. Well I didn't pick my circumstances, and neither did my peers. I'm just saying it's not all their fault.

And I really don't mean any disrespect.

I know you don't and neither did I...of course there are exceptions good and bad for everyone. Just saying, not as much as Gen Y as the following one....or maybe I'm just getting old and starting to think.."when I was a kid" kind of mindset...lol...idk anymore.

 

[sprinkles]

I know you don't and neither did I...of course there are exceptions good and bad for everyone. Just saying, not as much as Gen Y as the following one....or maybe I'm just getting old and starting to think.."when I was a kid" kind of mindset...lol...idk anymore.

Everyone does that. It's the nature of subjective perceptions.

And it really is subjective - 'seeing is believing' to the brain. It leads to "you apparently think I said that you said what you think I thought you said but in reality I was only saying that I wasn't saying that you were saying what you think I thought that you were telling me" types of situations.

 

[j654dgj7]

I've done a bit on my blog about the ultimate fairness of life - death. No matter what you do, we all get to die eventually. I don't use those words exactly, but it's definitely in the subtext. Here's an extract:

[...] I'm so sick of playing normal and acting like everything is fine - everything is not fine. We're all going to die. Regardless of how you behave, how much money you earn or how much you weigh, you will end up in the ground with the rest of us. Does that sound "OK" to you? How the fuck am I supposed to play along to this fucking comedy if that is the end goal? We all lose in the end - great. Just great. My one childhood was ruined by a bunch of idiots who didn't understand me. My parents, my teachers, my friends - nobody fucking got me. Still, nobody gets me. I can't relate to a single person on this planet. I know that we are all unique, and this is an exercise in finding yourself, but if you literally have no one for the formative years of your life, how can you be expected to even come close to finding yourself? When you're outcast for making one wrong step, or showing even the slightest hints at your true feelings for that matter? People often ask me why I don't just cheer up, and I have seriously considered asking them why they aren't depressed themselves? I'm usually not a depressive person with my friends or people in public, I try to put on a happy face, but not because I want them to feel good, because I'm afraid that if I don't put on the face, I will be outcast once more. [...]

My blog is here if you want to tag along.

 

[this is only temporary]

There was a thing on NPR which ranked various countries by how corrupt they are/are not and Barbados was the least corrupt, and they interviewed some Barbadosian (Barbadian? Barbadosers? whatever) and they have an expression called "You're unfairing me!" where they use unfairing as a verb. Loved it.

Carry on.

Edit: All right, I tried to find the article and couldn't, but this: http://www.transparency.org is the group that did the ranking, research and survey. People in this thread ought to like that organization. And you can google "Unfairing Barbados" and see lots of uses of the word "unfairing" as a verb. I kind of want to move to Barbados a little bit now.

 

[sprinkles]

I've done a bit on my blog about the ultimate fairness of life - death. No matter what you do, we all get to die eventually. I don't use those words exactly, but it's definitely in the subtext. Here's an extract:

[...] I'm so sick of playing normal and acting like everything is fine - everything is not fine. We're all going to die. Regardless of how you behave, how much money you earn or how much you weigh, you will end up in the ground with the rest of us. Does that sound "OK" to you? How the fuck am I supposed to play along to this fucking comedy if that is the end goal? We all lose in the end - great. Just great. My one childhood was ruined by a bunch of idiots who didn't understand me. My parents, my teachers, my friends - nobody fucking got me. Still, nobody gets me. I can't relate to a single person on this planet. I know that we are all unique, and this is an exercise in finding yourself, but if you literally have no one for the formative years of your life, how can you be expected to even come close to finding yourself? When you're outcast for making one wrong step, or showing even the slightest hints at your true feelings for that matter? People often ask me why I don't just cheer up, and I have seriously considered asking them why they aren't depressed themselves? I'm usually not a depressive person with my friends or people in public, I try to put on a happy face, but not because I want them to feel good, because I'm afraid that if I don't put on the face, I will be outcast once more. [...]

My blog is here if you want to tag along.

You just described Samsara - well a big part of it anyway. This is called dukkha. A pervasive dissatisfaction and sense of despair.

The thing about that is, it's true. What you say is true. That's exactly why suffering is a thing, because it IS a thing.

How do people get around it? Well, most don't. You don't get around it. You get above it. You can't actually take the bad out of the world. What you can do though is put the good into yourself.

 

[sprinkles]

I've forgotten my name
I'm sick and weak and fresh from sleep
I crawl from a crooked bed
With dirty feet and shaky hands
The numbers on the clock read
One-one-O-four A.M.
I've got time to clean myself
Then sell my soul again
When I sleep I dream
I dream I'm awake
Or was it when I'm awake
I dream I'm asleep?
I work, I shit, I eat, I sleep
I'm inspected by the number seven
This can't be my life
No this isn't me

I don't know what's beset this change
I barely recognize my own face
In my mind I know that something's not right
But in my heart I'm bathed in the golden light!
I'm bathed in a golden light!
I'm bathed in a golden light!

My eyelids still heavy, my pulse still faint
I'm puzzle peices, my memory's stained
I feel strength swell - a day dream
I'm shaking under this duality
My pulse is still faint
I hear a strange voice but don't know what it's saying

And in this moment
Seconds stop and I burst with clarity
A wealth of love and hate - gone blank
For I finally remember my fucking name!!

I eat rocks
And I breathe wind
I've been around the world and back again
I've lost the static
The gray is gone
I have the power of a million exploding suns

I am consumed by my might
Blinded in light as I would be in night
The void is holding me tight
It doesn't feel right

When will I ever break free
Within or without, I'm chained by the dream
The void is holding me tight
It doesn't feel right

When will I ever break free
Within or without, I'm chained by the dream
The void and the light are both me
It doesn't feel right

Bright lights flood my eyes
It's true
Now I realise
The perilous truth
Of a perilous life
By my own device
The strength of my high
Is the strength of my low
Unless there's no me
They both..
They both explode!

 

[Skarekrow]

Everyone does that. It's the nature of subjective perceptions.

And it really is subjective - 'seeing is believing' to the brain. It leads to "you apparently think I said that you said what you think I thought you said but in reality I was only saying that I wasn't saying that you were saying what you think I thought that you were telling me" types of situations.

Lol....I gotcha. When I was talking with [MENTION=2827]Phoenix Down[/MENTION] I thought of course it was implied that present company wasn't included, but why would she be able to read my mind? lol
Actually I have talked about the generation subject with my Mother (baby-boomer) and both of us agree that the Baby Boom Gen was the most destructive and harmful to the US out of all the Gen so far. Now this is a generality of course, Baby-Boomers please don't jump me, but when they had their love revolution and decided to be non-conformists to their parents gen. they actually got to have their cake and eat it to. Many of them did their fuck-all rebel thing, became nothing but self-indulgent, and sang "la la la la la live for today" and all that. But when all that was fading the self-indulgence never left them...at least not all of them. It didn't leave because they were able to screw around like that, and come back to go to college (as it was still affordable) to get a home loan (as you could still get one) and to find a job in the early 70's that could still support a one-breadwinner family. As that gen. grew and time marched on, it became - who can have them most. Bigger homes, bigger and more cars...more money etc. We lost retirements and pensions at workplaces, to satisfy this "need" people worked more hours, then those behind them were expected to as well. Then it became a necessity have to have a two income family...and even that now sadly comes up short in some cases. Inflation went nuts, Reagan was elected, the college education system had it's price locks removed and has now jumped more than 6000% since 1980....taxes were skewed in favor of the rich upon the backs of the working class and it still is to this day. Of course that is summing it up briefly minus many factual info. and numbers. There is more to it of course.

 

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

Why do we teach fairness when the world is inherently unfair? I was thinking about the term by Marx "commidity fetishism" and how the world has different commodities only available in certain areas, and that this inherently creates an unfair set up. The Native Americans did not have metals available to them and so when the Europeans came, they had an unfair advantage. Why do we teach children about fairness and equality when the reality is that fairness is an imaginary concept?

Then the person in the kitchen gets to drink water and eat, while the person in the room gets to sleep.

I think sharing the commodities of those rooms would make sense?

 

[muir]

Why do we teach fairness when the world is inherently unfair? I was thinking about the term by Marx "commidity fetishism" and how the world has different commodities only available in certain areas, and that this inherently creates an unfair set up. The Native Americans did not have metals available to them and so when the Europeans came, they had an unfair advantage. Why do we teach children about fairness and equality when the reality is that fairness is an imaginary concept?

Fairness isn't an imaginary concept

[video=youtube;aAFQ5kUHPkY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAFQ5kUHPkY[/video]

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Why do we teach fairness when the world is inherently unfair? I was thinking about the term by Marx "commidity fetishism" and how the world has different commodities only available in certain areas, and that this inherently creates an unfair set up. The Native Americans did not have metals available to them and so when the Europeans came, they had an unfair advantage. Why do we teach children about fairness and equality when the reality is that fairness is an imaginary concept?

Fairness is not a measure of distribution, but a measure of availability.

If any one goal is attainable, then it is fairly available. Of course, some people must work harder than others because of ability, location, etc.