Christopher Hitchens: Obituary and discussion

[GracieRuth]

Christopher Hitchens died yesterday at the age of 62. Love him or hate him, he was indeed a person of consequence.

I have to say that I personally dislike him, largely because I have a lot of difficulty with the ABRASIVENESS of the T-J personalities. Hitchens could be SUCH a jerk.

I must also admit that I'm highly prejudiced against the New Atheism, which Hitchens promoted. I don't care if a person is a-religious. It's anti-religion I have problems with. Spirituality is such a core part of our identity as humans that criticizing it is on par with being anti-music, or anti-literature, or even anti-facial hair. But although I cannot personally accept Hitchen's beliefs, I would fight to the death his right to hold such beliefs.

Now that I've gotten all my negativity out of my system, let me say some nice things about Hitchens. Whatever else may be true, he was very intelligent, quite educated, and most of all he was THOUGHTFUL about the larger issues of life.

What I find most intriguing about Hitchens is how he changed over time. As a young man he was defined by his Marxism and opposition to the war in Vietnam. As a mature adult, he had more in common with the Neo-cons, and supported the war in Iraq. Why the change?

I speculate that two factors were at work.

The first is simple maturity: as we grow older, we spot the flaws in our own views and backstep into something more moderate. I remember being in my early 20s and an ardent leftist. Someone said to me "If you are young and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you are old and not conservative, you have no brain." I sat on my bed trying to figure out what, if anything, would EVER change my politics. And yet, change I did.

The second factor is that as time has worn on, we are getting much more CLEAR picture that Islamic Fascism is a worldwide threat. As a young man, Hitchens didn't care who he offended in his scathing criticism of Israel. As an older man, Hitchens saw how the left had been betrayed, how the Palestinians themselves had been betrayed, by Islamic Fascism. Unlike many leftists, Hitchens was not afraid to discuss the elephant in the room. He was quite vocal in his scorn for leftists who "made excuses" for Islamic extremism.

I'd like to sum things up by saying that while I would never have been best chums with Hitchens, I consider him intellectually honest, a kind of "noble adversary." Perhaps in the next life I will be rewarded to have a nice hearty debate with him over a good cup of coffee.

 

[the]

Crap I have no heart or brain!

 

[GracieRuth]

Crap I have no heart or brain!

tsk tsk! I just KNEW it.

 

[invisible]

that saying about liberal and conservative is not a useful way of approaching these issues. people have different opinions and beliefs all through their lives for all different reasons. some of them change, some of them dont. there is no set path relating to those things that validates maturity or development. its just another way of dismissing people who differ from us, infantilising them through insistence on their immaturity, and of convincing ourselves of our own rightness. it constitutes an ad hominem argument. if we need to do that to believe in our own opinions then perhaps we should really be reexamining them.

 

[Faye]

How is Islamic fascism a worldwide threat?

 

[muir]

Hitchens was part of the British elite and was educated at Oxford University which is one of the foundation stones of the British establishment

Yes he espoused marxist ideas when he was younger, but the danger with marxism is that it can be hijacked by people with ideas that are not in alignment with true socialism.

If you are a member of an elite and you want to find the best way for that elite to maintain a dominant position over the rest of society then you could use marxist arguments to justify the creation of an all pervasive and controlling government which could then control the population whilst representing the interests of the elite

That would not be true socialism however...it would be 'state socialism' which is simply a new form of tyranny

True socialism would see an end to all coercive hierarchical structures. That would mean that the individual would no longer be controlled by either government OR private concentrations of wealth

In the same day Christopher would go from talking on a soapbox in the street to putting on a dinner jacket and addressing the debating club of Oxford!

He was writing for the International Socialists who clearly wanted international socialism. But the question is: did they want state socialism under a world government (that would be coercive and controlling) or did they want TRUE socialism?

One of the names that crops up again and again if you look into who the power brokers of the world are is Rockefeller. David Rockefeller is an immensly rich and powerful man who is behind many of the think tanks that drive government policy both at home and abroad; David wrote his thesis at harvard on fabian Socialism!

A billionaire writing about socialism! That doesn't make sense unless of course the 'socialism' he means is state socialism where the people would be controlled by a centralised and coercive government that would maintain a vice like grip on the economy

In the Portuguese Revolution of 1975-6 the reformist socialist party came into conflict with self organised workers and soldiers. Hicthens said this was 'the end of the line' for his relationship with International Socialism. (idea from http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=27053)

Perhaps he felt that the true nature of reformist socialism was being exposed for what it was: part of the establishment

So it seems Hitchens was always part of the establishment but he was pretending at various points to be some sort of revolutionary

He was a fan of Trotsky. Trotsky came to the US before the Russian revolution to seek funding from bankers and B'Nai B'rith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B'nai_B'rith). Trotsky believed in bringing about revolution through a revolutionary vanguard who would lead the way dragging all the workers behind them into a new system.

I don't agree with this method. I belive change must come because people have developed enough awareness and have chosen change for themselves in large enough numbers.

Hitchens was given a lot of air time on TV. Why? because the establishment liked him....he was part of the establishment

Hitchens drank excessively and perhaps it is an indication of an inner conflict within him.....a cognitive dissonance....perhaps not and perhaps its disrespectful for me to speculate

 

[invisible]

that is not practical.

 

[invisible]

he wrote an opinion piece suggesting that half of the human race cant even think straight enough to crack jokes and convinced himself that it was scholarly. his whole life he hadnt even listened to them long enough to find out how wrong he was. that is what i call funny! clearly he was comfortable telling people what to think about matters he had barely attempted to understand. its just as well he was able to bring a few important matters to public attention. rest in peace.

 

[magister343]

"If you are young and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you are old and not conservative, you have no brain." is a stupid and false quote.

Studies actually show that individuals tend to start out favoring right wing positions and continue to shift left the older they get. The factor associated with shifting to more right wing positions is not age, but offspring. Older individuals or couples who never had children tend to be much more liberal (or libertarian) than they were in college. The more time spent as an authority figure to one's children and grandchildren the more one comes to support authority figures in general.

 

[invisible]

perhaps the saying at its genesis was intended to ironically reflect the way in groups might deal with others who dont support the same politics - say by accusations of heartlessness or brainlessness rather than through deeper critical engagement with ideas relating to function and outcome, etc.

 

[InvisibleJim]

No need to cry. You've still got @hoggle and I to fill your IxTJ needs.

 

[InvisibleJim]

"If you are young and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you are old and not conservative, you have no brain." is a stupid and false quote.

Studies actually show that individuals tend to start out favoring right wing positions and continue to shift left the older they get. The factor associated with shifting to more right wing positions is not age, but offspring. Older individuals or couples who never had children tend to be much more liberal (or libertarian) than they were in college. The more time spent as an authority figure to one's children and grandchildren the more one comes to support authority figures in general.

I dont believe you. Replace 'studies show' with some studies as reference or save yourself a lot of googling and change the text to 'I think'.

 

[AzulSoul]

I must also admit that I'm highly prejudiced against the New Atheism, which Hitchens promoted.

As a mature adult, he had more in common with the Neo-cons, and supported the war in Iraq. Why the change?

I speculate that two factors were at work.

backstep into something more moderate.

The second factor is that as time has worn on, we are getting much more CLEAR picture that Islamic Fascism is a worldwide threat.

I don't think that the American conservatives are in any way moderate, and certainly not mature or (for the most part) intelligent. Certainly, Bush and McCain are complete idiots unfit to hold office or indeed manage anything.

As for the dreaded 'Islamic Fascism', that makes me laugh. I presume you're a Christian, I which case your mind has obviously been addled by sensless propaganda: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are very similar. If you are not a Christian, then please refrain from implying that Islam is worse than any other religion - all religions are just as correct as each other. If you really are worried about opressive and terrorist governments, I suggest you leave America: the country that slaughtered millions of innocent people in Iraq and Afganistan and does not understand the phrase 'other people's business'.

As things stand, America is the biggest worldwide threat and I cannot wait for Russia to take its place.

 

[magister343]

I dont believe you. Replace 'studies show' with some studies as reference or save yourself a lot of googling and change the text to 'I think'.

It was in Professor Robert Altemeyer's book The Authoritarians (which can be downloaded for free), but I don't feel like looking through it right now or searching for the raw data he used.

As for the dreaded 'Islamic Fascism', that makes me laugh. I presume you're a Christian, I which case your mind has obviously been addled by sensless propaganda: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are very similar. If you are not a Christian, then please refrain from implying that Islam is worse than any other religion - all religions are just as correct as each other. If you really are worried about opressive and terrorist governments, I suggest you leave America: the country that slaughtered millions of innocent people in Iraq and Afganistan and does not understand the phrase 'other people's business'.

She has made it very clear many times on this forum that she is Jewish. Technically, she is a revert to Judaism, an ethnic Jew raised in an Evangelical Church who later in life rejected Jesus and and returned to her ancestral religion.


The claim that all religions are just correct as any other is a huge huge claim that almost anyone from any religion would reject. You'd have to be crazy to think that a 20th century joke religion is just as correct as a faith with a clear historical basis and centuries of rigorous philosophical discussions.

 

[JGirl]

i have no idea who this is/was but i would imagine he was just as full of shit as any other politician.

 

[the]

No need to cry. You've still got @hoggle and I to fill your IxTJ needs.

This didnt tag me for some reason.

But I will fill all your IxTJ needs. Its what I live for: servant leadership.

 

[AzulSoul]

She has made it very clear many times on this forum that she is Jewish. Technically, she is a revert to Judaism, an ethnic Jew raised in an Evangelical Church who later in life rejected Jesus and and returned to her ancestral religion.


The claim that all religions are just correct as any other is a huge huge claim that almost anyone from any religion would reject. You'd have to be crazy to think that a 20th century joke religion is just as correct as a faith with a clear historical basis and centuries of rigorous philosophical discussions.

I hadn't read that, and I mean no offence to any religion or to her personally. As for my statement about religions: there is no proof that God exists or does not exists, therefore it is impossible to say with any certainty that one religion or the lack of religion is better or more true than another religion. A religion created today as a joke is as correct as any other because the likelyhood that it is true is exactly the same: tradition is in this case insignificant.

 

[PrincessFirefighter]

i have no idea who this is/was but i would imagine he was just as full of shit as any other politician.

I'm really sorry, but...*facepalm*

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Though I personally disagree with many of Hitchens' political beliefs, I mourn his death. This is merely because I am an atheist, and we have so few representatives who are listened to. I don't want to sound all "woe is me", but I'm sure we can all agree that atheists and gays are to the U.S. today as African Americans were to the U.S. in the 1960s. At least in terms of sentiment. If you completely disagree, please, read the latest on the Jessica Alquist story (the atheist high schooler who has been dealing with death threats and discrimination from people around the country because she had the GALL to fight against an unconstitutional prayer banner hanging in her school). There are plenty of sources where you can find the things people are saying about her, such as, "When I take over the world I’m going to do a holocaust to all the atheists" and "nail her to a cross."

But I digress...

I mourn the loss of Hitchens because he was one of few voices that represent the atheist community that people actually took the time to listen to. Now we don't really have...anyone. He was sort of the top dog. We don't have religious leaders. We don't have many people strong enough or powerful enough to hold a public place of respect (in one way or another) and still be able to admit to atheism. It's just so hated. We're just SO hated. I want to go into politics, but I know I never could. Even here in Washington, I'm too godless (which, NATURALLY, means immoral, too) to reach that point.

 

[JGirl]

I'm really sorry, but...*facepalm*

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Though I personally disagree with many of Hitchens' political beliefs, I mourn his death. This is merely because I am an atheist, and we have so few representatives who are listened to. I don't want to sound all "woe is me", but I'm sure we can all agree that atheists and gays are to the U.S. today as African Americans were to the U.S. in the 1960s. At least in terms of sentiment. If you completely disagree, please, read the latest on the Jessica Alquist story (the atheist high schooler who has been dealing with death threats and discrimination from people around the country because she had the GALL to fight against an unconstitutional prayer banner hanging in her school). There are plenty of sources where you can find the things people are saying about her, such as, "When I take over the world I’m going to do a holocaust to all the atheists" and "nail her to a cross."

But I digress...

I mourn the loss of Hitchens because he was one of few voices that represent the atheist community that people actually took the time to listen to. Now we don't really have...anyone. He was sort of the top dog. We don't have religious leaders. We don't have many people strong enough or powerful enough to hold a public place of respect (in one way or another) and still be able to admit to atheism. It's just so hated. We're just SO hated. I want to go into politics, but I know I never could. Even here in Washington, I'm too godless (which, NATURALLY, means immoral, too) to reach that point.

gee don't be shy.