[PUG] Bullied to death? How about misguided by the people he counted on. (Jamey Rodemeyer)

DrShephard

DrShephard

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I figured this might get some disagreement, so I put a pug thing on it. I think that's the right one. ;)

So I saw on MSN today that Jamey Rodemeyer has committed suicide. He was one of the gay teens involved with the "It Gets Better" project, where celebrities and politicians got on camera to tell gay teenagers that bullying is bad (mmkay) and that they just need to stick in there because it gets better... they promise. What are some of the ways to deal with bullies? Fighting isn't right, violence is never the answer. Nonviolent ways are best to deal with bullies - otherwise you stoop down to their level. Right?

Wrong. I am all pissy about this backwards-ass movement so I am going on a rant about it. I'll preface this by saying that nonviolent methods are GREAT... until they don't work. Understanding, communicating, avoiding the problem, telling them to stop, running to teachers. It's fine to do those depending on the situation, but it's a load of shit to say that you should NEVER respond with attacks of your own.

It gets better. We do not need to teach our children how to fight back against bullies, we need to eliminate bullies. You cannot eliminate bullying, just as you cannot eliminate anger. The advice given to gay teenagers who are getting bullied is to "find those who care about you and stick with people you trust who like you for who you are." and "things will get better." Hope for the future.

What would you tell a teenager who was being molested to do about it - if they didn't have the police to turn to? Would you say to try to avoid fighting, because fighting is bad? To just stick in there and wait, because eventually you'll be able to move out and it will get better? To spend more time talking to teachers who care, and it doesn't matter if they see their assaulter once or twice a day... as long as they spend more time everyday with people who care.

We are telling kids that fighting against someone's attacks is wrong, whether either attack is verbal or physical. We need to get rid of aggressors, of bullies, of people who take advantage and are cruel to others. The assertion that we can rid the world of that is completely absurd. It's as absurd as saying that we can rid the world of war. It's a pipe dream - nice to imagine, but completely unrealistic.

So we're teaching children that it's wrong to fight back, and it's good to wait for things to get better. What options does this leave them? They can fight back and get in trouble and get told they're wrong, which is disempowering and negative - or - they can sit and take it and suffer and run away whenever they can, which is disempowering and negative. This sounds familiar to me... ahhh, yes. Learned helplessness.

From Wikipedia: Learned helplessness, as a technical term in animal psychology and related human psychology, means a condition of a human person or an animal in which it has learned to behave helplessly, even when the opportunity is restored for it to help itself by avoiding an unpleasant or harmful circumstance to which it has been subjected. Learned helplessness theory is the view that clinical depression and related mental illnesses may result from a perceived absence of control over the outcome of a situation.

So their will to fight against the situation has finally been beat out of them from, time and time again, being put in a situation where they are told they cannot fight when they are being attacked. What is the last option of control available someone who feels that, based on their past few YEARS of experience, their world will not change? Suicide sounds like a pretty viable answer.

I wonder if he'd ever been in a fight, and what his parents might have told him. I suppose they would have gotten upset with him and said "You need to work on getting along with other people. You need to learn how to talk to them without fighting or arguing." Such advice works poorly against bullies. Maybe they advised him to "act like you don't care, and don't show them that what they're saying hurts you." I assume he'd gotten that advice from somewhere, because he did do that. He put on a marvelous facade of being fine to everyone around him, including his parents. However, while one can lie to others... lying to one's self is much more tricky for some of us.

To his credit, Jamey's father said "They have to teach their children to stand up for themselves and their friends and stop the bullies from bullying people." This was quickly taken back by the end of the news story, where the narrator says that "Tracy and Tim think Jamey was put here to show people that being different is OK and bullying is wrong, and perhaps more of a problem than any of us realize."

Yes, exactly. That is exactly what is life showed. Oh... wait... That's not it at all, is it! If anything, the message is this: "If you are different, you will be persecuted by people. Your situation may change as the years pass, but if your PRESENT situation is unacceptable you can either choose to do nothing and suffer while waiting for externals to change, or you can do something about it now. Some of the people who choose to sit and do nothing will choose suicide over enduring."

If there's one good thing to be said about the It Gets Better movement, it would be that the message could actually help those who are suffering in ways harsher than just a mild inconvenience, just not as its originators intended. By telling those who are suffering that they should sit and remain in suffering and let their only salvation be that "the future will be different", there is a chance that some of those hearing the message will finally understand that they cannot rely on anyone to tell them how to deal with it - they'll have to figure it out for THEMSELVES. So when the gay kid gets told "Don't use physical violence against a bully who hits you for being gay, go to a teacher instead! Violence isn't the answer!" they can respond with an immediate "Fuck you" and can learn how standing up for one's self physically can get the not-affected-by-words bully (I'd say these are more common than not) to back down.

I'd change the "It Gets Better" videos to be done by The Joker from The Dark Knight and Tyler Durden of Fight Club with a mocking grin. By Mersault from The Stranger and Zarathustra via Nietzsche with a load of sarcasm. By Oscar Wilde and Alex DeLarge. Then maybe that message would carry through with a bit more of the correct context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Pb1CaGMdWk

How awful. How wrenching and awful.
 
I have no idea what the solution is for bullying. It's one thing I'm really clueless over. The problem with violent retaliation is that it often leads to more and more violence. But I suppose when you hit rock bottom, there's nowhere to go but up.
 
I hate to say it and I feel conflicted about it (and I know its wrong, not PC, etc., etc., etc.) but my personal experience with bullies was that if you hit them hard, fast, and unpredictably, first, and follow it with a violent combination, you never have to worry about them again or anyone else, for that matter. I was (am?) a good fighter and I'm ashamed to say that I enjoyed it. I taught my kids to fight well, too. If you're going to hit, hit hard, fast, and mean it. We all engaged in various martial arts (particularly Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido) over the years and have never worried about bullies or being picked on.

Kids that get picked on should be taught to defend themselves. Were I the father of daughters instead of sons, they would have learned the same skills. You can have all kinds of the lovey-dovey, anti-violent programs for bullies but they'll never work. Bullying comes from a deeper, more primitive place in the mind. It's motivated by fear and only suppressed by a greater fear. If a bully is afraid of you, you're safe.

My older son used to get into fights a lot when he was young because he was small. But, he was quick and talented, and defended himself quite effectively, developing a reputation that served as a shield against bullies. Once I was called into the principal's office and told that my son was on the way to becoming a juvenile delinquent. This really annoyed me because I felt it was typical of the feminine mindset and culture that dominates elementary school and just "doesn't get" boys. Well, my son didn't become a criminal but, rather, is an extremely successful, confident human being.

By the way, in fighting, I'd take speed over brawn any day.

Knowing your kid is being bullied and not actively doing something about it borders on child abuse because the end result is the same whether you beat your kid or you allow someone else to do it. Note that I'm talking about self-defense.
 
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Norton said:
I hate to say it and I feel conflicted about it (and I know its wrong, not PC, etc., etc., etc.) but my personal experience with bullies was that if you hit them hard, fast, and unpredictably, first, and follow it with a violent combination, you never have to worry about them again or anyone else, for that matter. I was (am?) a good fighter and I'm ashamed to say that I enjoyed it. I taught my kids to fight well, too. If you're going to hit, hit hard, fast, and mean it. We all engaged in various martial arts (particularly Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido) over the years and have never worried about bullies or being picked on.

Kids that get picked on should be taught to defend themselves. Were I the father of daughters instead of sons, they would have learned the same skills. You can have all kinds of the lovey-dovey, anti-violent programs for bullies but they'll never work. Bullying comes from a deeper, more primitive place in the mind. It's motivated by fear and only suppressed by a greater fear. If a bully is afraid of you, you're safe.

My older son used to get into fights a lot when he was young because he was small. But, he was quick and talented, and defended himself quite effectively, developing a reputation that served as a shield against bullies. Once I was called into the principal's office and told that my son was on the way to becoming a juvenile delinquent. This really annoyed me because I felt it was typical of the feminine mindset and culture that dominates elementary school and just "doesn't get" boys. Well, my son didn't become a criminal but, rather, is an extremely successful, confident human being.

By the way, in fighting, I'd take speed over brawn any day.

Knowing your kid is being bullied and not actively doing something about it borders on child abuse because the end result is the same whether you beat your kid or you allow someone else to do it. Note that I'm talking about self-defense.
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Exactly, it is self defense. I've been disappointed seeing people who were unconfident as teens, some of my friends, learn to stick up for themselves... and they turned into exactly the thing they hated. The flipped, and went from the bullied to the bullies. They learned how to abuse others, instead of being abused. That's just nasty.
 
[MENTION=3454]DrShephard[/MENTION] Mr Hat has something to say.

I partially think that having the Queens starting beating everyone's ass would get them respect and people would stop thinking gay people are sissies [MENTION=1678]Norton[/MENTION].

But truthfully, that's not how it should be done (especially in this situation). There is a breaking point though because you cannot just let people trample over you and expect the system to fight for you. I, for one, am willing to get into a fight over it, if someone incites the violence against me and/or another person but as a last resort.

You shouldn't go looking for a fight but when you get knocked on your ass, you have to stick up for yourself.

In the particular faction of gay bullying, I think we just need to educate people about it and not make it taboo.
 
If people have the mistaken notion that gays are weak and incapable of defending themselves, stomping a bully's instep and sweeping his legs out from under him might change an attitude or two.

If you take several dance lessons, you're already a better dancer than 98% of people. The same goes for fighting.
 
I don't really understand all this talk about martial arts and self-defense. Couldn't you just creep up behind said bully at another time, and hit him over the head with a heavy object of your choosing? A skinny girl could do it, and it would work. Doesn't really matter how big the guy is, heavy rock --> head = knock out. Pretty scary for the bully too. Whenever he sees you, he's gonna be asking himself "am I about to get shanked? Does he have a knife is his pocket?". Have the guy standing with his back to the wall every day.
 
When they say "don't stoop to their level", they are stooping to their level. They are ignoring your complaints and pretending your suffering doesn't exist. The solution is always to fight.

In regards to the idea that "it gets better", school bullies become workplace bullies, child abusers and petty tyrants. The solution for them, which I hope will be made available in the coming decades, is to scan them for psychopathy and eliminate them if they turn out to be psychopaths, then repeat the process on their parents.

Out To Lunch, the problem is that the courts don't take kindly to this sort of thing.
 
Simply put, I don't agree with "shutting the fuck up" when someone is bullying you. I think at some point you have to put the bully in his/her place. If you continue to try to ignore the bullying or wait until it gets better, it's NOT going to stop the bully in the mean time. I don't really see any point in living in misery over being tormented by peers.

I feel like society is trying to strip everyone of their ability to defend themselves whether it be physically, verbally or otherwise. I believe we have a right to stick up for ourselves and to suggest that people just sit back and take it because "it gets better" is almost cruel. It's not about stooping to anyone's level, it's about self preservation, self defense and not allowing yourself to be continuously but in a position where you're being physically or psychologically tormented.

I agree with [MENTION=1678]Norton[/MENTION] that there seems to be a stereotype that gays are weak and defenseless but they're not. They can defend themselves except the school system doesn't allow for that.

I think it's incredibly unfortunate that someone would commit suicide because of someone else but such is the world we live in.
 
I tend to agree with some of the points raised. I think that the "it gets better" approach is probably a result of people thinking to avoid Columbine-like incidents. Ironically, I think it is the disenfranchised and continuously bullied students who pose a greater risk of going off and bringing that gun to school.

It reminds me of the "turn the other cheek" message given in organized religion--you know, where you are promised a better afterlife "the meek shall inherit" if you suffer in this one. IMO this message is usually delivered to rationalize injustice--sure you are poor and downtrodden but you are earning your place in heaven so don't worry. Sure you shouldn't be bullied but if you just stick it out for a couple of years, it won't matter.

Practical applications for reducing the number of bullies and such behavior would be in the pre-school and kindergarten level. It is amazing how children mirror adult's behavior--bullies tell us a lot about how we view the "other". We prattle on about acceptance and honoring diversity but the truth is that we are intent upon rigid socialization and narrowly defined parameters of "acceptable" behavior/attitutes/appearance.

We need to learn and teach anger management, conflict resolution and other more acceptable techniques to parents so they can pass them onto their children.
 
In some cases it is better for the victim to walk away but in others they must stand their ground or they will be run over. I think it is necessary sometimes to fight. However, there are problems. Some people are just not fighters and those who are run the risk of trouble with the law so that choice must be considered carefully.

I think way too much emphasis is played on the victim's role when compared to the role of the community. Responsible adults should intervene when they witness bullying. This is the action that works! Instead, it seems people prefer to stand on the sidelines. Why? Could it be that they are afraid of an overly litigious society where everything is settled by courts instead of common sense? Why come to the rescue of your neighbour when it could become your own undoing?
 
OK the reason people get bullied at school, I think, is because of lack of confidence. It's not so much physical size (although this can certainly be an important factor). A little person with confidence is unlikely to get picked on. Perhaps a good solution involves helping kids build more confidence in themselves. You don't have to physically beat someone's brains out to get them to stop bothering you. Having the confidence to berate the other person should be enough.
 
First let me get a pet peeve off my chest. Being bulled is not owned by gays. I was bullied MERCILESSLY and I was not gay, not fat, etc. What I WAS, was INNOCENT. I matured a little more slowly that my peers, so socially I was still in grade 3 or 4 when everyone else was in grade 5 and 6. And I responded to bullying with shock and withdrawl, which pointed out to every bully in the class that I was the perfect victim. What I'm saying is that bullies don't "look for gays." They look for victims of any ilk. And bullying is an atrocity no matter who is being bullied.

Next point. Bullying will never stop until we decide that every single individual has a moral obligation to step in and help the victim. We need to do this as adults, and we need to teach it to our children. Whether it is on the playground or in Nazi Germany, the only thing it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. The kids that come to watch the fight are just as guilty of bullying as the one doing the punching. And those who are in authority should be ousted if they don't step in. I mean it. We need to fire principals and teachers who are too lazy to find out the details of the fight before suspending BOTH.

“Do not stand idly by while your brother’s blood is at stake.” Leviticus 19:16
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If you have a child that is being bullied, the most helpful thing you can do is teach them to FIGHT BACK.
  • Role play with them verbally. Teach them stuff like "I am rubber you are glue..."
  • Teach them how to physically fight, so that the threat of a fight doesn't overwhelm them. Make sure your kid knows, "If you start a fight you are grounded for life. But if someone hits you first, you FINISH the fight."
I remember the day my son was suspended for fighting. I asked him what happened. He said, "They were picking on Alex and wouldn't stop. So I told them to stop. So he swung at me and I clobbered him." I said, "Good for you." And I took him out to lunch.
 
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it seems people prefer to stand on the sidelines. Why?
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It is easiest on the mind to assume the victim deserves it. If we entertain the notion that the victim has done nothing to bring this on himself, then we have to face the stark reality that it could happen to us, too. This is what is biologically etched into the DNA of most people. It can, however, be overcome with teaching and societal pressure to act differently.
 
Out To Lunch said:
I have no idea what the solution is for bullying. It's one thing I'm really clueless over.
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http://www.nobully.org.nz/grownup.htm
http://www.nobully.com/
http://www.stopbullying.gov/

The problem with violent retaliation is that it often leads to more and more violence.
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This is actually not true. The overwhelming majority of bullies turn tail if the victim doesn't respond helplessly. You don't want your kid to start bullying other innocents, but you DO want them to show the bully that , "Hey! Do you REALLY want to mess with me? Is it worth THIS amount of effort?" One or two fights, and the bully will go off looking for easier prey.

In the adult world, on rare occasions you DO run into people bent on the utter destruction or anhilation of person X or group Y. In such a case, you basically have to be willing to fight to the death. To assume that they are going to negotiate reasonably is simply an invitation for them to plan further attacks. In such a situation, peace is not an option, in fact "seeking peace" is what will escalate the violence. It's kill or die. Pick one.
 
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I have had a really hard time with this particular issue lately.

It makes you really angry when someone you love, someone you care about, is emotionally abused to the point that they no longer believe life is worth living. One of the only reasons that people make it through this tough time is when people stick up for each other and don't allow abuse to go on as if it was alright. I just keep thinking that if a handful of people had not stood up and said that it was HORRIBLE for someone to suggest they harm themselves on a public forum with all of this person's friends watching and agreeing, someone would be dead. And it's a miracle that they are not.

If people had not stood up and fought back against these individuals horrible things would have happened.

I can't be more grateful.
 
Doesn't it make sense to teach kids to start off friendly and cooperative, fight back smartly when/if attacked, and then cooperate when/if others show signs of cooperation? That's what I would do.

If you teach them only to fight back, it can be either physically impossible (in some cases) or it can make them blind to signs that others may be potential allies or friends. Also, it could alienate potential allies or friends, get them a criminal record or killed. If the only thing you know how to do is fight back, hard and physically, then you eventually learn that is the only way. Winning cooperation is also important.

It is not always easy to fight back smartly when attacked, especially for children who literally have no idea whatsoever that they have allies, or potential ones, and that in the adult world things can truly get better. I think the It Gets Better video was addressing this sad ignorance, partly. Of course they should defend themselves.

So your vide:

"...change the "It Gets Better" videos to be done by The Joker from The Dark Knight and Tyler Durden of Fight Club with a mocking grin. By Mersault from The Stranger and Zarathustra via Nietzsche with a load of sarcasm. By Oscar Wilde and Alex DeLarge. Then maybe that message would carry through with a bit more of the correct context." sounds entertaining. But what would it tell kids to actually do? That won't land them in jail or the ER? In order to stop bullying?

I think you need to include specific step-by-step instructions, and keep in mind that some people lack martial arts skills.
 
I was always a "tattler" in school because quite honestly I didn't give a shit and I didn't have time to mess around with it. The same way as if someone was threatening me with physical violence etc now I would call the police, that's not unreasonable thing for an everyday citizen to do, it's one of the advantages of living in a culture such as ours in first world countries.
 
this is only temporary said:
Doesn't it make sense to teach kids to start off friendly and cooperative, fight back smartly when/if attacked, and then cooperate when/if others show signs of cooperation? That's what I would do..
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Yes it makes sense. Game theory has proven that the most effective strategy for life is to begin with the assumption that the other will cooperate, but to return tit for tat.
 
I think a lot of these passive kids (I used to be one of these) have problems because there's so much stigma about not fighting or being violent in school. I don't think fighting back in defense should be stigmatized. It allows people to have absolute power over others, when superiors aren't looking. I think people should learn about controlling violent tendencies if they are people who are violent to attack others, or it's something children should learn later on when the bullies start becoming mature and stop being bullies. I think if children weren't told to never fight back in defense, then there would be a lot less bullying in the world in the first place.
 
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