Building a wall. | INFJ Forum

Building a wall.

Eventhorizon

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Recent politics has seen the prop up of an unlikely canidate Trump due largely to what in my opinion is powered by some of his first comments regarding the building of a wall on the Mexican border to keep illegal aliens out.

This is a discussion about walls and the best way to implement change or, whether you feel as if illegal aliens should be monitored or controlled in any way.

To start I believe that illegal aliens need to be kept out of the country but more than that, we need to know who is coming into our country unannounced for national security purposes. However, building a physical wall in my mind is ignorant and will create more problems than it is worth. I believe that a combination of enforcing laws already on the books along with an electronic wall made of sensors used in conjunction with physical detainment is the solution.

So let the discussion begin. What say you?
 
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The US has both borders and a system of visas. At present both are undeniably in a state of shambles. Three highly simplified approaches could be:

1. Ignore it and hope for the best.
2. Negotiate an open border with Mexico and Canada, abolishing visas between those three countries.
3. Address porous borders and adapt visas to compensate for changes in cross-border movement.

I don't understand the disbelief and revulsion to the notion of a border wall. We humans have been using walls to separate the inside from the outside for longer than recorded history.
 
I wonder who will get the contract to build the wall (one of "The Donalds" companies). Maybe it can be outsourced to Mexico.
 
We need a wall but it better not be a physical wall. It would be an incredible waste of money, it would disrupt wildlife migration. ..and it wouldnt work. All it would end up being is a symbol.
 
I wonder who will get the contract to build the wall (one of "The Donalds" companies). Maybe it can be outsourced to Mexico.

Trump says he would get Mexico to pay for it. And while I dont like the idea of a physical wall I do like the fact that Mexican politicians and leaders basically being slapped in the face with the idea.
 
We need a wall but it better not be a physical wall. It would be an incredible waste of money, it would disrupt wildlife migration. ..and it wouldnt work. All it would end up being is a symbol.
Ideologues turn everything into symbols, but pragmatists just want something which will work and be low-maintenance.

A wall is sometimes just a wall. Cigar anyone?
 
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Job creation. ;)
 
Also, since the Mexicans are paying for it, let's not skimp. I'm thinking, maybe, fifty feet high. What about you guys?
 
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Job creation. ;)
Hopefully it would have some architectural quality. I think it would be pleasant if it had some historical/cultural references:
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Hopefully it would have some architectural quality. I think it would be pleasant if it had some historical/cultural references:
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Great idea. It could be a magnificent symbol of American independence, except this time it's about independence from the third world.
 
Do you know of the integrity and design of this wall you have pictured?
 
They would just dig under it. They have already proven to be master tunnel builders. Im telling you a physical wall is practically worthless and causes more issues than its worth.
 
Current patrols could be minimised and re-deployed to sweep the border with ground penetrating radar.
 
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Did the Great Wall of China keep the Mongol horde out 100%?
 
I read a really cool essay about the border in Rebecca Solnit's "Endless City" volume on San Francisco, definitely worth checking out if the border interests you.

I wish the world would value and respect cultural borders more greatly than economic borders. That's just my little fantasy, I don't expect it to be treated seriously.
 
We need a wall but it better not be a physical wall. It would be an incredible waste of money, it would disrupt wildlife migration. ..and it wouldnt work. All it would end up being is a symbol.
Just want to say that I agree with you here. There's little to add to this. It's puzzling just how little criticism is raised on how impractical it would be.
 
Immigration, even illegal immigration, is a net benefit for the country. We would probably be better off deporting all Trump supporters than deporting all undocumented immigrants.


Open immigration would by even very conservative estimates double the world's wealth.


We don't need to keep Mexicans out of the USA any more than we need to keep New Yorkers out of Florida.



Building a wall is a huge waste of resources. I might be ok with it if Trump wants to squander his entire fortune paying for it personally (the most modest cost estimates are approximately equal to what he claims as his total net worth, so it would leave him with about to the amount of wealth he deserves), but not if it would require using imminent domain to confiscate private property (as Trump loves doing).




Migration is a natural right. If any government is to be allowed to infringe upon that right it needs to have a very compelling interest in protecting other natural rights. I could support measures to limit the movement of violent criminals or those carrying highly contagious diseases, but current regulations are ridiculous.


We don't really need "deportation," just occasional extradition or quarantine.


Economic protectionism is never a good enough justification. That always means making most of us worse off in order to help those with political connections.


Issuing only a very limited number of visas in limited categories is not acceptable. We should not require any visas at all.


Voluntarily working for an employer and being paid what the private parties agreed upon (to do anything that would be morally permissible if done without remuneration) is also a natural right. There should never be any government intervention, save perhaps to ensure informed consent as to either party's qualifications or lack thereof. If an employer wishes to hire only natives then the state should not stop him, but neither should it stop any employers from hiring illegal immigrants.


Almost all of Abraham Lincoln's arguments against slavery apply just as well to the right of migrants to work to support themselves.


Our contemporary immigration regulations are the modern version of the Fugitive Slave Acts. I only hope that future generations will recognize them as such.




If legal immigration was made easy for everyone wanting to come here for peaceful purpose (and if we also end the "War on Drugs," which is far more harmful than the drugs themselves), there would be very little incentive for anyone to come here illegally. That would make it much easier to address the few remaining cases of those who still would try to enter illegally for malicious purposes.




Protecting the culture is also a rather stupid rationale. Cultures are a fluid set of values and practices which individuals ought to be free to accept or reject. (Most cultural values from across the world cannot stand up to scrutiny and probably ought to be rejected.) All cultures evolve primarily by borrowing from other cultures. Attempts to describe the nature of any particular culture tend to degenerate into rather insulting parodies. No one should be bound to blindly follow traditions of the culture in which one happens to have been born. Viewing foreigners' cultures as hostile is probably the most effective way to prevent those immigrants from interacting with their new neighbors enough that they become assimilated and mostly join the dominant culture instead of maintaining the traditions which the natives fear.




Residency and citizenship are different issues though. Granting anyone citizenship as soon as he crosses the borders seems imprudent. I frankly think it is unwise to grant anyone citizenship automatically based on happenstance of birth. Those who will be voting and influencing public policy should have to sign some citizenship contract demonstrating informed consent, perhaps after passing some tests to ensure at least a basic understanding of the Constitution. I recognize that this would require amending the constitution, but it is a deeply flawed document in need of a major overhaul anyway.






p.s. The Great Wall of China was never intended to stop a Mongol invasion. It was mostly meant to stop successful raiders (Mongols and others) from retreating back home with all their loot. Its guards were so corrupt that they often helped the invaders cross both ways in exchange for a share of the stolen goods. At best, they helped send messages to various army outposts in order to let the Chinese troops know where to go to track the raiders down to punish them and take their booty as bonus pay. The goods rarely found their way back to their rightful owners, unless the owners were rich and powerful.


Building the wall was also a huge waste of resources, funded by centuries of high taxation and forced labor which were much more harmful to the Chinese commoners than the Mongols themselves ever were before becoming the "legitimate" Imperial government. Even then, the Mongol rulers were not as bad as many native Chinese regimes were both before and after them. Great powers rarely fall to external forces unless their own leaders are so bad that the common man begins to recognize the invaders as a lesser evil.


(Note that the wall was really a variety of smaller walls and watchtowers of very different ages and qualities, originally intended to serve only local areas, which were linked together fairy late. In many areas it is merely a crude fence or a rough mount of dirt, without any of the aesthetic qualities of the portions most often photographed.)
 
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ERECT THE WALL!