Beuracracy, compromise, and other icky things in real life

[GracieRuth]

I need a release valve. I soooooo do not want to have to deal with Beauracracy (with a capital B). But I'm driven to change things for the better, so I'm consciously making the effort of trying to develop political skills. Anyone else in that boat?

When I'm in any given community, I look for the leader, and shmooze my way into a friendship. That way I can be "the person BEHIND the person on the throne." I'm just far more comfortable being a quiet influence behind the scenes.

WELL... What do you do when there is no leader? When there is no one at the helm?

Basically, I attend a synagogue that is devolving due to lack of leadership and insurmountable red tape. We can't even get a minyan (quorum) for Saturday morning anymore, which means we can't do many of the things that are SUPPOSED be done. Because I CARE about that, I've organized my thoughts, met with the rabbi, and am now working with a phenominally organized ENTJ to prepare for the Board a submission for a Shabbat Task Force that will address the many assundry issues that need to be tweaked. When I keep my "eyes on the prize" I'm very excited about this. But when I consider the realities of having to work with a dysfunctional Board, and having to make compromises, and basically trying to get people on my side who are content with stagnation, I just feel like, "Why am I asking for this?" So I'm venting a bit, but trying to be pragmatic. Sigh, sometimes you just gotta do things yourself, eh?

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has successfully learned to deal with such situations. And if anyone else wants to vent, go for it!

Shalom

 

[Ryo]

Basically, I attend a synagogue that is devolving due to lack of leadership and insurmountable red tape. We can't even get a minyan (quorum) for Saturday morning anymore, which means we can't do many of the things that are SUPPOSED be done. Because I CARE about that, I've organized my thoughts, met with the rabbi, and am now working with a phenominally organized ENTJ to prepare for the Board a submission for a Shabbat Task Force that will address the many assundry issues that need to be tweaked. When I keep my "eyes on the prize" I'm very excited about this. But when I consider the realities of having to work with a dysfunctional Board, and having to make compromises, and basically trying to get people on my side who are content with stagnation, I just feel like, "Why am I asking for this?" So I'm venting a bit, but trying to be pragmatic. Sigh, sometimes you just gotta do things yourself, eh?

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has successfully learned to deal with such situations. And if anyone else wants to vent, go for it!

Shalom

I can relate. I really hate politics. I worked for a very rigid and political organization for the past year and it was incredibly frustrating. Solid leadership is important in order to get anything done.

It sounds like you've got a plan. ENTJ's can be a wonderful resource when it comes to executing new initiatives. I worked with one myself and her confidence and capability kept me motivated. I think you may be surprised by how many people agree with you and could be potential allies. In situations like that, sometimes people have just become cynical and may not believe that you can actually make changes. I doubt they're actually content with the situation. If this is something that you care about, as it sounds like you do, go for it. It may feel like you're the only one who cares but that may be because you're the one who was meant to care. If you commit to making an impact, things will fall into place for you. Try not to focus on all of the potential problems at once. Take it one step at a time.

I was surprised by how many people were watching me as I struggled against a frustrating system and felt like I was alone. I really was making a difference, it just seemed daunting to me sometimes. People still tell me how much I inspired them by staying loyal to my values.

 

[the]

I hate politics unless I understand how the game is supposed to be played. Then I dont mind it unless something goes not according to rules/plans.

 

[Kgal]

Originally Posted by GracieRuth

Basically, I attend a synagogue that is devolving due to lack of leadership and insurmountable red tape. We can't even get a minyan (quorum) for Saturday morning anymore, which means we can't do many of the things that are SUPPOSED be done. Because I CARE about that, I've organized my thoughts, met with the rabbi, and am now working with a phenominally organized ENTJ to prepare for the Board a submission for a Shabbat Task Force that will address the many assundry issues that need to be tweaked. When I keep my "eyes on the prize" I'm very excited about this. But when I consider the realities of having to work with a dysfunctional Board, and having to make compromises, and basically trying to get people on my side who are content with stagnation, I just feel like, "Why am I asking for this?" So I'm venting a bit, but trying to be pragmatic. Sigh, sometimes you just gotta do things yourself, eh?

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has successfully learned to deal with such situations. And if anyone else wants to vent, go for it!

Shalom

I can relate. I really hate politics. I worked for a very rigid and political organization for the past year and it was incredibly frustrating. Solid leadership is important in order to get anything done.

It sounds like you've got a plan. ENTJ's can be a wonderful resource when it comes to executing new initiatives. I worked with one myself and her confidence and capability kept me motivated. I think you may be surprised by how many people agree with you and could be potential allies. In situations like that, sometimes people have just become cynical and may not believe that you can actually make changes. I doubt they're actually content with the situation. If this is something that you care about, as it sounds like you do, go for it. It may feel like you're the only one who cares but that may be because you're the one who was meant to care. If you commit to making an impact, things will fall into place for you. Try not to focus on all of the potential problems at once. Take it one step at a time.

I was surprised by how many people were watching me as I struggled against a frustrating system and felt like I was alone. I really was making a difference, it just seemed daunting to me sometimes. People still tell me how much I inspired them by staying loyal to my values.

I think you captured it Ryo. Good for you!

One of the abilities of being an INFJ is the way we can connect with - and - get others to see common ground. You may be surprised at what you can do [MENTION=4576]GracieRuth[/MENTION] just by talking with people, finding out their interests and concerns, and passing the information on to others.

I know I despise politics, in general, because of all of the lying and posturing and the shallowness of it all.
But you know something - after all these years of a bunch of narcissists in political offices - it sure would be nice to see some INFJs get elected!

Good luck to both of you!

 

[Lerxst]

Detachment is a wonderfully underrated thing sometimes. When I get involved in politics, I think to myself "Why am I getting involved in politics?" and 99% of the time, the answer to that, doesn't justify the stress.

You know the phrase, "You can lead a horse to water..."? If I show people a method that is right and works but they don't want to go along with it for their own ridiculous reasons, that's their loss. If they destroy something that's good due to their own selfishness, again, that's their loss since I was never attached to it in the first place.

I will admit though, those are my own religious values showing through (non-attachment).

 

[Norton]

There is bureaucracy whenever people are brought together and organized for a common purpose. Operating within a bureaucracy is uncomfortable for introverts because doing so requires significant interpersonal interaction, communication and persuasion, which are extroverted activities. It is no accident that ENTJs and ENFJs are particularly effective leaders. Introverts can be effective in a bureaucracy by allying themselves with talented extroverts in leadership positions and acting as "advisors." One hazard for the INFJ is that, invariably, working within a bureaucracy challenges, and sometimes compromises, one's principles. This is very hard on INFJs for whom principles are paramount. I gave up on bureaucracies long ago and have been self-employed for more than twenty five years. But, I'm an INTP, so my problems with bureaucracies have more to do with my impatience, their inefficiencies, and the collective idiocy and diffusion of responsibility within groups.

Have you considered attending another synagogue?

 

[After the Rain]

Bureaucracy and politics exist to make humans depersonalized, and to boost

 

[Norton]

Bureaucracies and politics exist because people exist. They seek power and compete with each other. They form alliances and often act a cross purposes. Bureaucracies and politics are a reality everywhere. A smart person realizes this and learns to operate effectively within that context.

The term "bureaucracy" per se is not necessarily a pejorative, even though it is often used as such. Some bureaucracies are extremely efficient and effective. However, saying one hates politics means that one is destined to hate it whenever more than two people get together to get something done. In a group, politics is an inevitability because people with different ideas and aspirations naturally compete with each other for power. It is inherent in any organization. So, if you hate politics, you had better stay away from any group of people that has a mandate to get things done, however, inefficient they may be.

 

[After the Rain]

"A smart person realizes this and learns to operate effectively within that context"

 

[Norton]

"A smart person realizes this and learns to operate effectively within that context"…so peace, prosperity and justice triumphed (and will triumph) throughout the history of humankind!!!

For better or worse, we're still around, including you. Of course, blaming war, poverty and injustice on bureaucracies is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Bureaucracies exist and will continue to exist whether you like it or not. That's just the way things are. So, if you want to be angry and bitter go and fight bureaucracies and see where it gets you--you'll lose. It's better to learn how to operate effectively within a bureaucracy and, perhaps, change it for the better. This is the practical, effective, less stressful approach. It's also something for which INFJs may be well suited.

 

[After the Rain]

I love to see

 

[bickelz]

I love to see ‘the bigger picture’ and possibility in everything. I have not been enchanted with any systems to be disenchanted and fight them; therefore, I entrust it to someone incomparably bigger than me. Absolute knowledge we will never possess. Yes,bureaucracies are symptomatic medicines with side effects.

What? Bureaucracies are meant to spread power out rather than have an authoritarian figure making decisions by itself btw.

 

[After the Rain]

believe what you have to believe

 

[54192&#cmy]

I need a release valve. I soooooo do not want to have to deal with Beauracracy (with a capital B). But I'm driven to change things for the better, so I'm consciously making the effort of trying to develop political skills. Anyone else in that boat?

When I'm in any given community, I look for the leader, and shmooze my way into a friendship. That way I can be "the person BEHIND the person on the throne." I'm just far more comfortable being a quiet influence behind the scenes.

WELL... What do you do when there is no leader? When there is no one at the helm?

Basically, I attend a synagogue that is devolving due to lack of leadership and insurmountable red tape. We can't even get a minyan (quorum) for Saturday morning anymore, which means we can't do many of the things that are SUPPOSED be done. Because I CARE about that, I've organized my thoughts, met with the rabbi, and am now working with a phenominally organized ENTJ to prepare for the Board a submission for a Shabbat Task Force that will address the many assundry issues that need to be tweaked. When I keep my "eyes on the prize" I'm very excited about this. But when I consider the realities of having to work with a dysfunctional Board, and having to make compromises, and basically trying to get people on my side who are content with stagnation, I just feel like, "Why am I asking for this?" So I'm venting a bit, but trying to be pragmatic. Sigh, sometimes you just gotta do things yourself, eh?

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has successfully learned to deal with such situations. And if anyone else wants to vent, go for it!

Shalom

I hate the machine. It churns out divisions among the people. It makes others choose sides so that they stay in power. The problem with trying to change it is that they want to hold on to their power. Just as the aristocrat's did years ago. Look at Christianity for example pick your denomination what are they all? The differences come down to others wanting to have control and power over another. As in any group there are followers and leaders. The leaders will always rise and the sheep will follow. By being behind the scenes your just playing the game and letting your ideas to be taken away by the leader. He claims all the credit and takes all the power. And discards you when you disagree. Being second place means your the first to go when things go wrong your the scape goat. They cry it was your idea. I see it as your either all in or nothing. You either stand on your own feet and own yourself or your a sheep.

As much as I would like to lead I don't want followers. I want thinkers. I want others to make up their own minds. To think for themselves. There will always be opposition because they want power. I crave no power just freedom. There is no way that I can do anything for anyone. Even if my words create a spark it is up to them to run with the flame and keep it burning. Most people won;t go the distance. So I complain from the sidelines and do nothing. And do my own thing. I cannot change the world. Although I can make sure that I talk with those who need my help and help them get to where they want to be. It's too bad that the world cannot see that we are all inter connected in this life. It does not matter what or who they are we all need one another.

We all use one another to one degree or another. I have found that if you can find a use for a man you have done him a service one that he will not forget. And it will reciprocate and come back to you. If you put bad into the world that is what you will receive in return. The ripples of our lives will come to bear no matter how good or bad. They all come back and spread around. No man is an island. And even if you don't accomplish what you started out to accomplish others will see and know that you tried. And that may be more important than meeting the goal you set. Because in the end you started something. Which was better than doing nothing at all. Leaders are made. True leaders represent all with no self interest.

 

[bickelz]

believe what you have to believe

Is that what you meant in the first place or are you being condescending? Because if it's the latter, I can go all Madisonian Pluralism on your ass.

 

[After the Rain]

No, what I meant is what I wrote. No, I am not being condescending, but it is clear that you are rude- for example not even understanding my point but already threatening. I am saying "believe what you have to believe" because you will believe it whether I agree or disagree with you. And that is fine with me.

 

[bickelz]

No, what I meant is what I wrote. No, I am not being condescending, but it is clear that you are rude- for example not even understanding my point but already threatening. I am saying "believe what you have to believe" because you will believe it whether I agree or disagree with you. And that is fine with me.

You still haven't answered my original question when I first quoted you so in context of the writing on the internet, it is interpreted as condescending by

1. Not answering my question and;
2. Telling me to run along and "believe what I want"

 

[After the Rain]

1) I do not think that you are easily offended type
2) I think this is fun for you
3) Why is so important for you that I should answer you when you will mock my answer anyway?
4) You think that you are not condescending when you say to a female and older person than yourself "on your ass"
5) If you seek respect give respect first - this is why I think that you do not care for my answer but just want to argue

 

[the]

No, what I meant is what I wrote. No, I am not being condescending, but it is clear that you are rude- for example not even understanding my point but already threatening. I am saying "believe what you have to believe" because you will believe it whether I agree or disagree with you. And that is fine with me.

1) I do not think that you are easily offended type
2) I think this is fun for you
3) Why is so important for you that I should answer you when you will mock my answer anyway?
4) You think that you are not condescending when you say to a female and older person than yourself "on your ass" <<<(ME) How would he know?
5) If you seek respect give respect first - this is why I think that you do not care for my answer but just want to argue

Boxy you trollin'.

 

[After the Rain]

Ah, already everybody here knows your trolling posts! Very attractive at that as well!