An INFJ vs INFP Puzzler

[Actual]

So we all know how notoriously difficult it can be to sort these two types out. Well that's nothing, I present to you the following puzzle.

INFP Andy believes fiercely in the values of being logical, rational, objectively true, and putting others before himself. His value system by definition must be logically consistent and rational based on the premises that underlie the system. Andy's value system includes an objective moral truth applicable to all and he can explain why that is in a logical and rational way.

INFJ Jack believes that being true to one's value system is an objectively valuble thing, because it means that one has good will. He's also a huge Kierkegaard fan. Jack also wants others to understand that he has means well because he wants understanding in case he makes any mistakes and he wants to avoid any damaging conflict by that shared understanding. Jack also believes that individuality is a treasure because it resists the dehumanizing aspects of collectivism. Jack won't accept everything anyone believes, by no means, he simply cannot (not everything can be true at once, it's logically impossible), but he'll fight for your freedom to believe them insomuch as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Now, tell me how to differentiate between these two.

This problem is precisely why I am unable to type myself with any significant degree of confidence. :-(

 

[Actual]

[No longer needed was able to edit post above]

 

[Gaze]

Andy is Te-valuing or Te-dom

Jack is Fi-valuing or Fi-dom

Andy sounds like an XNTJ. Jack sounds like an INFP.

 

[Actual]

Andy is Te-valuing or Te-dom

Jack is Fi-valuing or Fi-dom

Andy sounds like an XNTJ. Jack sounds like an INFP.

Both are the same person. Now what?

 

[Actual]

Andy is Te-valuing or Te-dom

Jack is Fi-valuing or Fi-dom

Andy sounds like an XNTJ. Jack sounds like an INFP.

Actually, I just thought about this in a new way. Ok, so that's what they *sound* like.

But why does one's beliefs have to married to their type? Do we have free will or not? Are you not projecting an archetype upon them? What if you take my premise as truth, so *sounds* is irrelevant, what then?

 

[Gaze]

Actually, I just thought about this in a new way. Ok, so that's what they *sound* like.

But why does one's beliefs have to married to their type? Do we have free will or not? Are you not projecting an archetype upon them? What if you take my premise as truth, so *sounds* is irrelevant, what then?

I'm not an MBTI expert but this is what I've come to understand about how the theory works. Others who are true experts can better clarify.

Here goes . . .

Since both Andy and Jack are coming from different perspectives and make decisions in specific ways which use or depend on specific functions that are not complimentary to to each other, it's not likely they are compatible as complements in one person. They theoretically couldn't exist in the same body if you hold to the MBTI theory. Yes, they will demonstrate the use of the same functions but some functions are more dominant, which means their opposing function won't be awake so to speak if the dominant one is highly active. Like Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. They would have two separate persons. It's more likely that one of these persons is merely a temporary state of being that is used or deployed in a particular situation but is not the most natural or preferred way to respond. You would need to separate what you are doing as a means to an end, to accommodate a particular situation vs. what is most naturally way for you think, feel, and respond without effort or adjustment to some external force to figure out which is the most likely type for you.

 

[Actual]

Andy is Te-valuing or Te-dom

Jack is Fi-valuing or Fi-dom

Andy sounds like an XNTJ. Jack sounds like an INFP.

Regardless of how this turns out I will gladly take the mantle of INFP.

I am sick and tired of reading articles about how this type is an illogical elven fairy, and I'll challenge *any* INFJ to a philosophical debate. (Good luck, you'll need it.)

My ego is not dependent on my MBTI type. The truth of my beliefs is not dependent on my MBTI type. I will not be leveled or dehumanized or dismissed or discredited based on my MBTI type.

The truth stands alone, apart from me, and is not contingent on what I believe. The truth doesn't give a rats a$$ what I or anyone else feels is right.

Give me INFP, and by God, though even the entire world and all the forces of hell are arrayed against me, they shall be as a gnat attacking a world of granite. For I shall stand with the truth and the truth is no respector of person, ideal, or intention or force of man or force of evil.

Let them see this realization of an INFP and fear it.

 

[Actual]

You would need to separate what you are doing as a means to an end, to accommodate a particular situation vs. what is most naturally way for you think, feel, and respond without effort or adjustment to some external force to figure out which is the most likely type for you.

And how in the world would I achieve that from within my own head, cognitive framework, and worldview? :-( It sounds like I'm better off trying to type from a physical description or just giving up on it altogether at least in terms of self typing.

I'm a slave to my own subjectivity, so I don't see how I could step outside that to evaluate this in an objective way. I could try, but it would inevitably be tainted. I know too much about the theory at this point.

Even any past experience I could filter through the theory and justify nearly any type.

 

[jyrffw54]

And how in the world would I achieve that from within my own head, cognitive framework, and worldview? :-( It sounds like I'm better off trying to type from a physical description or just giving up on it altogether at least in terms of self typing.

I'm a slave to my own subjectivity, so I don't see how I could step outside that to evaluate this in an objective way. I could try, but it would inevitably be tainted. I know too much about the theory at this point.

Even any past experience I could filter through the theory and justify nearly any type.

I think you need to study the functions themselves more thoroughly before coming to any further conclusions.

 

[Actual]

I think you need to study the functions themselves more thoroughly before coming to any further conclusions.

I already have. For weeks now. I can map myself to both types quite easily as well as to others. I can see myself as dang near any type if I map things one way or another. The truth is elusive to me.

And pardon my intensity, but how the heck does one differentiate Ni+Fe from Fi from within oneself? I sure can make no claim to achieve it. And I'm expressive and empathetic with people (Fe?) but my value system is independent of what they care about it. (Fi and Ti and Te b/c it's objective truth but it's internally logically consistent and resonates with my value system.)

I know no reality but what I have experienced and thus cannot compare and contrast among others.

This isn't an explicit challenge to the system though it may be implicitly. I really do want to know.

I can see myself as INTJ, INFP, INFJ, INTP, and ENTP or ENFP. But I'm definitely not an extrovert.

INFP vs INTP test yields INTP.
ENTP vs INTP test yields ENTP.
INFP vs INFJ test yields INFJ.

So what am I supposed to believe? No freaking way I'm an extroverted type. I recharge alone. Period. I've never come up as an extroverted type on a behavioral test. Not even once.

 

[Actual]

It seems that this is generally all dependent upon *how* someone believes something and not *what* one believes, but then how do I explain how I believe what I believe after I have already rationally justified it?

And if it's rationally justified then it doesn't need a *how* anymore because it stands alone as objectively true or at least true based on a logically consistent framework.

So my best hope really is meeting an expert and getting their impression based on past experience, so it seems.

 

[Actual]

I think you need to study the functions themselves more thoroughly before coming to any further conclusions.

Alright, I'll try yet again and shelve my frustration this time.

The problem seems to be confusing what one believes with how one's mind works and being able to identify with much of the processes (or think I identify at least).

Since this is about how one's mind works and not about what one believes, then I think it can be said that Andy + Jack is completely possible and not contradictory at all in terms of what they believe.

Otherwise type would dictate belief, which is ridiculous given the diversity of beliefs in each type, at least according to celebrity types.

So the question is how do they think, not what do they believe. So I need to try to isolate my beliefs from my thinking process despite the stereotypes of each type's beliefs.

If I stay on this long enough I should be able to reach a conclusion. I woke up thinking about this and I'll probably obsess over it until I can figure it out or until I get frustrated again and need to take a break before circling back again to hopefully see this from a new angle.

Your help is sound and appreciated despite my own faults in the matter.

 

[Actual]

Went and took cognitive function test on celebrity types to try to stir something up.

It appears to indicate INFJ, but I still need to get a better grasp on the theory and the functions to be convinced.

I want to be convinced, but I want to be the one convinced and have the conviction be true.

Will just keep reading and reading. I got True Type book last night and will read through it today. I'm like a bulldog on a bone on this, lol.

My wife hates it when I go obsessive on something because it tends to dominate everything until I one day just drop it and that's it, usually.

It's often either pedal to the metal or nothing at all.

My penance for my INFP rant should be to stop being disgustingly hypocritical. But I just hate the notion of anyone being looked down upon as less reasonable or rational based on their type and that then being an excuse to treat them lessly. But that is my ugly problem. :-( Why do I value rationality that much, should I?

But I digress.

 

[James]

Hi @Actual

I think it can be difficult as INFJ usually are not 'strong' "J" types. but.. we are Js. We like to be able to shift and change, but we want there to be a plan, we still like order. We don't like 'chaos' and very rapid change generally.

Real world example for me, is that my ex would just put cd's back any way. I like them to be "alpha order" so I can find them straight off. I purposely mixed them up to try to 'adapt' more to spontaneous thinking and relaxing about disorder. However it still bugs me. Even now I want to stop typing this and sort it out, but I try to laugh at myself and leave it as it is. How are you around things like that. Organised, alphabetical or 'free and easy' ?

There's quite a brilliant thread here of INFJ experiences that if you relate to ? Then it might help. I see you've redone the test several times, which I think is a fairly classic INFJ behavior. Ultimately I'd say the MBTI was about recognising our behavior patterns and adapting to them to understand ourselves and others better.

https://www.infjs.com/threads/you-know-youre-an-infj-when.32587/

I hope that helps.

 

[Actual]

Hi @Actual

I think it can be difficult as INFJ usually are not 'strong' "J" types. but.. we are Js. We like to be able to shift and change, but we want there to be a plan, we still like order. We don't like 'chaos' and very rapid change generally.

Real world example for me, is that my ex would just put cd's back any way. I like them to be "alpha order" so I can find them straight off. I purposely mixed them up to try to 'adapt' more to spontaneous thinking and relaxing about disorder. However it still bugs me. Even now I want to stop typing this and sort it out, but I try to laugh at myself and leave it as it is. How are you around things like that. Organised, alphabetical or 'free and easy' ?

Thanks, I'll look through that. It is actually this J vs P issue that stands in the way above anything else.

I test as INFP due to that now. Though in college I first tested INTJ and then INFJ before forgetting about MBTI for years and years, but I had a bunch of books and stuff, the kiersey book, gifts differing, others. Fast forward over a decade and now I am more P than ever.

I get liking alphabetical and ordered and I do that when I write software I am picky about the structure and clash with others over it, but I generally don't care about it in the external world.

If I started a bookshelf alphabetically I'd be obsessive over keeping it that way, but if it was just chaotic to begin with I'd leave it.

My wife (definite 'J') and I clash over this all the time All the time. Is it possible that an inferior Se can manifest like that in INFJ? My messiness and not noticing any problem or mess is a constant issue. I either don't see the issue, or I don't care because I'm too busy with something else that I do care about and it's usually reading about something like Jungian typology. Always reading and learning about something.

It is hilarious how I don't see things though, It is really funny. Obvious things for days or weeks. My wife has to find everything, because I can look right at something and just not see it. Constant issue in the household.

I also take great pleasure in being spontaneous but I don't know if that's because it's natural or because I am aspiring to it. I want to be like that, I don't know why. I yearn to be spontaneous and free, including with my emotional expression. That said, I am generally also very lazy unless something matters to me and then I'll be on that like white on rice and work to death until it's completed.

Could the desire for closure in INFJ manfiest generally outside of being a planner or organized or clean at home?

For example, if there is ambiguity about a personal, moral, or ethical situation I will obsesss over it and try to come to a resolution as quickly as possible as it will stay in my mind forever unless I purposely supress it. If I can't come to a resolution then it will depress me.

So yeah, it is this one issue "J vs P" that stands in the way more than anything to figuring out my type.

I'll read that thread and see if it helps. Any further thought is appreciated.

One last thing. If I was single and you saw my house, my car, my desk at work, etc. Disaster areas! You'd think I was P hands down. No contest. (if left to my own devices)

I also dislike planning and organization. I don't want to plan vacations or my weekends unless it's something specific we want to do to insure that it happens.

By contrast, my wife plans the everloving crud out of everything including running around with a little day planner. I see the value in it. I need lists when getting groceries. I just don't like doing it. We are so different here it's not even funny.

So you can see how this issue is a problem for me if identifying with INFJ.

 

[Actual]

Is it possible that I am just an INFP like Andy, above? With a developed Te? But then that doesn't explain the low Si score and high Fe, unless I just need to toss those tests out the window.

Ugh, I hate this.

I'll try a different cog function test later.

 

[Actual]

So I take another test just hours later and get completely different results other than super low Si and Te. Strong Se is also common.

But this one indicates higher Ne than Ni and higher Fi than Fe and higher Ti than Fi (but so close as to be insignificant especially considering my values).

This is why this quest feels impossible. I'm probably too old and experienced or have too many beliefs that cut across type stereotypes or something for these tests to be very effective.

So I better get to reading more including that True Type book.

 

[James]

Thanks, I'll look through that. It is actually this J vs P issue that stands in the way above anything else.

I test as INFP due to that now. Though in college I first tested INTJ and then INFJ before forgetting about MBTI for years and years, but I had a bunch of books and stuff, the kiersey book, gifts differing, others. Fast forward over a decade and now I am more P than ever.

I get liking alphabetical and ordered and I do that when I write software I am picky about the structure and clash with others over it, but I generally don't care about it in the external world.

If I started a bookshelf alphabetically I'd be obsessive over keeping it that way, but if it was just chaotic to begin with I'd leave it.

My wife (definite 'J') and I clash over this all the time All the time. Is it possible that an inferior Se can manifest like that in INFJ? My messiness and not noticing any problem or mess is a constant issue. I either don't see the issue, or I don't care because I'm too busy with something else that I do care about and it's usually reading about something like Jungian typology. Always reading and learning about something.

It is hilarious how I don't see things though, It is really funny. Obvious things for days or weeks. My wife has to find everything, because I can look right at something and just not see it. Constant issue in the household.

I also take great pleasure in being spontaneous but I don't know if that's because it's natural or because I am aspiring to it. I want to be like that, I don't know why. I yearn to be spontaneous and free, including with my emotional expression. That said, I am generally also very lazy unless something matters to me and then I'll be on that like white on rice and work to death until it's completed.

Could the desire for closure in INFJ manfiest generally outside of being a planner or organized or clean at home?

For example, if there is ambiguity about a personal, moral, or ethical situation I will obsesss over it and try to come to a resolution as quickly as possible as it will stay in my mind forever unless I purposely supress it. If I can't come to a resolution then it will depress me.

So yeah, it is this one issue "J vs P" that stands in the way more than anything to figuring out my type.

I'll read that thread and see if it helps. Any further thought is appreciated.

One last thing. If I was single and you saw my house, my car, my desk at work, etc. Disaster areas! You'd think I was P hands down. No contest. (if left to my own devices)

I also dislike planning and organization. I don't want to plan vacations or my weekends unless it's something specific we want to do to insure that it happens.

By contrast, my wife plans the everloving crud out of everything including running around with a little day planner. I see the value in it. I need lists when getting groceries. I just don't like doing it. We are so different here it's not even funny. So you can see how this issue is a problem for me if identifying with INFJ.

I'm no expert but the more I read the more I think you're INFJ . The messy disorganised thing is not so much an indicator to me, as INFJ tend to be highly creative and probably one of the weakest J type. It's more the intention or wish. I always want to be more organised, and I think the determination to resolve the J or P issue is typical INFJ whereas I think an INFP woul leave it open as a true P type and be more relaxed about it.

Not seeing detail or finding things ? sounds to me typically highly intuitive and symptomatic INFJ behavior. Seeing the Forest not noticing the trees.

I think if you go through that thread if you are INFJ it will ring true to you over and over again.

 

[Actual]

I'm no expert but the more I read the more I think you're INFJ . The messy disorganised thing is not so much an indicator to me, as INFJ tend to be highly creative and probably one of the weakest J type. It's more the intention or wish. I always want to be more organised, and I think the determination to resolve the J or P issue is typical INFJ whereas I think an INFP woul leave it open as a true P type and be more relaxed about it.

Not seeing detail or finding things ? sounds to me typically highly intuitive and symptomatic INFJ behavior. Seeing the Forest not noticing the trees.

I think if you go through that thread if you are INFJ it will ring true to you over and over again.

Yes, I am reading through and it is uncanny. Too much to be a coincidence I think. Especially about the random people confiding in me. I have had a CEO do that even. Unbelievable. I was told by Director in my mid 20s that I was wise beyond my years after he brought me aside to discuss something. When I was in college I even had a drop zone owner confide in me about a relationship issue he had. The guy was in his 50s or something! And I was a college sophomore, lmao. But I did my best.

As far as the J/P thing, I suspect it may have some relation to inferior Se and possible its relation to Ne. I experienced some serious emotional trauma in my early 20s (I don't even want to share it despite what I already have shared) and spent some time escaping via extreme Se pursuits for years and years. It will still bring me to tears, easily, 16+ years later and always will.

I suspect a lot of the weirdness there could be related to the Se inferior. That's going to be my working theory for now at least.

Still reading that thread but it is uncanny. I must be some odd INFJ variant due to life circumstances and experience.

 

[James]

Yes, I am reading through and it is uncanny. Too much to be a coincidence I think. Especially about the random people confiding in me. I have had a CEO do that even. Unbelievable. I was told by Director in my mid 20s that I was wise beyond my years after he brought me aside to discuss something. When I was in college I even had a drop zone owner confide in me about a relationship issue he had. The guy was in his 50s or something! And I was a college sophomore, lmao. But I did my best.

As far as the J/P thing, I suspect it may have some relation to inferior Se and possible its relation to Ne. I experienced some serious emotional trauma in my early 20s (I don't even want to share it despite what I already have shared) and spent some time escaping via extreme Se pursuits for years and years. It will still bring me to tears, easily, 16+ years later and always will.

I suspect a lot of the weirdness there could be related to the Se inferior. That's going to be my working theory for now at least.

Still reading that thread but it is uncanny. I must be some odd INFJ variant due to life circumstances and experience.

As I read your post, I think you are very likely INFJ. It's just a theoretical framework after all, a way to try and explain how different people seem to have 'types' of behavioral preferences or patterns of behavior. There's no 'This is the best' type, just hopefully a way to adapt to how we are (good and bad) and understand ourselves and others better.

The 'confessions' thing to me ? That's a classic INFJ trait, people sense we are different, and will listen and help. They just open up to us, often totally random and unplanned, even near strangers. Often people in authority, they are quite often isolated and really very wishing they could talk to someone. Worse counterpoint though ? INFJ are typically very slow and reluctant to open up themselves. We are highly sensitive and get hurt easily. It's ironic almost.

I am sorry about what happened in your 20's. It seems to me you have come through that now though, pushed on and built a largely good happy life. I feel confident you will deal with your recent relationship matters in that same constructive way. Whatever the outcome you will cope, adjust and make things good for your family. Make them good for yourself too though. You are just as important.

Take care.