A serious discussion on Nationalized healthcare

[Eventhorizon]

We all can imagine a perfect health care system. You get sick and everything possible is done to figure it out, fix you in the best possible way and with no cost to you.
What keeps this from happening? If this can't happen, what's the alternative?

Who has real and factual data as to the cost of such a system because we also know, nothing is free.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I did not want this to be part of the op for fear of putting people off from the discussion. I want to say though that here in America, best intentions aside our lawmakers have shown they are not up to this task. Projected costs of Obamacare weren't even close. So much so even the detractors couldn't guess how bad it would be. So... what options should be considered? Should we have independent panels working on this. Should it take as long as it takes to put something in place that actually works? Should it not be influenced by politics. Or should we simply regulate drug producers, hospitals and doctors instead? I mean we are talking about a socialistic system anyway...why not go out and simply regulate?

 

[Stu]

https://www.infjs.com/threads/the-lack-of-affordable-healthcare-in-the-us.33357/

 

[Eventhorizon]

https://www.infjs.com/threads/the-lack-of-affordable-healthcare-in-the-us.33357/

My thread is not limited to the US though it's obviously what I am most concerned about.

 

[CindyLou]

We all can imagine a perfect health care system. You get sick and everything possible is done to figure it out, fix you in the best possible way and with no cost to you.
What keeps this from happening? .

With no cost?

 

[Eventhorizon]

With no cost?

The point is, people want a fantasy. Which is fine but simply not realistic . What I am asking for is an actual working plan that gives those who want it the closest to what they want, then I want to know the real cost of it.
This is something our lawmakers can't give us for some reason. I suspect the reason is the cost, nothing is actually workable in the real world. People who support nationalized healthcare in a way where they would rather see something than nothing do not understand that anything you put in place is destined to fail because it can't actually work in the real world.

 

[Skarekrow]

The point is, people want a fantasy. Which is fine but simply not realistic . What I am asking for is an actual working plan that gives those who want it the closest to what they want, then I want to know the real cost of it.
This is something our lawmakers can't give us for some reason. I suspect the reason is the cost, nothing is actually workable in the real world. People who support nationalized healthcare in a way where they would rather see something than nothing do not understand that anything you put in place is destined to fail because it can't actually work in the real world.

It works just fine for most of the world...you’re argument against it being cost-effective or possible is just silly.
We don’t have healthcare for all because it’s all a huge money making machine.
It’s going to be awfully hard to claw back the money that the insurance companies and drug companies (amongst others) charge.
This is why there should be some kind of Federal oversight, because it should be awfully clear to everyone now that our healthcare is not affordable...it works in a for-profit manner....so long as that is the driver of policy and laws via lobbyists who have flooded Congress with money and legal bribes - nothing will change price-wise...it may get shifted around as to who pays what and who get subsidized (the rich or the poor?), but again - they are in the business of making money at every level of our healthcare system...that must change first.
If you go and read about how some people like Sanders would pay for universal healthcare...it is paid for by closing tax loopholes that corporate America take advantage of.
There are many healthcare plans out there that work and we have a lot of data from those countries who have had universal healthcare for decades in most cases.
Anyone from another country here with universal healthcare have any stories about how terrible it is?
What is your experience with it?
Has it bankrupted anyone you know?
Can you afford your medications?
Can you afford to go to the doctor? A specialist?
How long is a wait time at an ER?
How long to get a procedure approved?
How much to you pay for surgery?
How about dental?
Do you pay hundreds of dollars to fill a cavity?
If you have an emergency do you ever debate in your head if you should seek medical help because it might cost too much?
Anyone?

 

[Skarekrow]

https://www.infjs.com/threads/the-lack-of-affordable-healthcare-in-the-us.33357/

Well....see....his is different....it’s more legitimate because EH started it and not me....my facts don’t jive with his “alternative truths”.
More and more he just looks disconnected from reality.

 

[Professor Snep]

The point is, people want a fantasy.

Which is fine but simply not realistic. What I am asking for is an actual working plan that gives those who want it the closest to what they want [...].

Get rid of diseases by building a huge wall.

But seriously: my guess is that it all depends on your world view. For example, I don't believe people want a fantasy, but that they rather want a practical solution for their everyday problems. Especially when they have nothing, and the status quo is undesirable. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to deal with their biggest issues. You need something to build on, and that thing shouldn't be quicksand.

 

[Faye]

National healthcare would only be a fraction of what we spend on military.

We could also significantly reduce costs be investing in preventative care, proper health education in middle/high schools, changing agricultural policy and some food regulations, etc.

 

[Skarekrow]

National healthcare would only be a fraction of what we spend on military.

We could also significantly reduce costs be investing in preventative care, proper health education in middle/high schools, changing agricultural policy and some food regulations, etc.

It always strikes me as a contradiction when the GOP “party of fiscal responsibility” is so against healthcare for all and against moving from the for-profit model that will continuously and consistently drive up costs in all areas of healthcare in the US with the BS excuse that having healthcare is not something all should have as humans...they call it an entitlement and group it in with the demonization of the poor.
Sorry...but there are a lot of Americans who would gladly see their taxes go to fund universal healthcare....then if the rich folks want to purchase other insurance plans on top of that for specific reasons, then they should be able to....but we should also have a set of basic health rights including access to affordable healthcare.
Number one reason for bankruptcy for like the last decade or so has been medical bills and people’s lack of ability to pay such extravagant prices.
Obamacare was a set of rules for the healthcare industry to follow...now it needs to be amended so it is fiscally balanced.
Just give the people a public option...and let’s see how many sign up and how well it works!
Give it a chance and let’s see who is paying more and what kind of quality is given?
They won’t even give it a try because they know there goes the profits.

 

[Skarekrow]

Hmmmm....wonder why it didn’t pass?

 

[Vicarious]

Hmmmm....wonder why it didn’t pass?

Lol, no outpatient care without hospitalization, but also won't cover hospitalization. So basically, it would cover nothing at all. Why am I not surprised?

ETA: This is essentially exactly how things worked before the ACA went into effect, and I very much doubt that any of the insurance companies would lower any of their current rates, so we would be taking at least 10 steps backwards if they were able to pass this steaming pile of crap.

 

[Faye]

It always strikes me as a contradiction when the GOP “party of fiscal responsibility” is so against healthcare for all and against moving from the for-profit model that will continuously and consistently drive up costs in all areas of healthcare in the US with the BS excuse that having healthcare is not something all should have as humans...they call it an entitlement and group it in with the demonization of the poor.
Sorry...but there are a lot of Americans who would gladly see their taxes go to fund universal healthcare....then if the rich folks want to purchase other insurance plans on top of that for specific reasons, then they should be able to....but we should also have a set of basic health rights including access to affordable healthcare.
Number one reason for bankruptcy for like the last decade or so has been medical bills and people’s lack of ability to pay such extravagant prices.
Obamacare was a set of rules for the healthcare industry to follow...now it needs to be amended so it is fiscally balanced.
Just give the people a public option...and let’s see how many sign up and how well it works!
Give it a chance and let’s see who is paying more and what kind of quality is given?
They won’t even give it a try because they know there goes the profits.

I completely agree with you. Yeah, they do not care about fiscal responsibility. They never have really.

The GOP can no longer claim it believes in fiscal responsibility

 

[Skarekrow]

Lol, no outpatient care without hospitalization, but also won't cover hospitalization. So basically, it would cover nothing at all. Why am I not surprised?

Well...this is how we had it before the ACA enacted the patient protection laws that it imposed.
People had “insurance” that didn’t actually cover anything at all...they were bogus plans that left people high and dry when they needed healthcare.
I can’t believe the cuts to Medicaid for children...and most of those who voted for the Republicans self-identify as “Christians”, they are anti-abortion, pro-life, whatever you want to call it....but then the funding for any kind of care for that child once it is born is poorly funded already...this would be even worse...and estimated 8 million children would have lost health insurance.
That’s just sick in the head.

I agree that the ACA isn’t working great, and there are many who are paying very large premiums...but I don’t think anyone wants to see 24 million + lose health insurance to fix it....because it’s not 24 million of those who can afford to buy their own....it’s the elderly, the disabled, the poor, children, etc. who would suffer because of this.
I just don’t see how people can square such apathy in their mind and heart?
All this while the bill would have given huge tax breaks to the wealthy....Trump himself would have gotten a $2,183,552.00 tax break...while Granny gets thrown out in the street.

Once again...we need single payer...we need the ability to bargain for prices on medications.
When one pill can cost $600 a day for the rest of someone’s life...then something is rotten...someone is gouging someone.
The drug companies excuse of R&D cost is BS and old.
The people need to stand up for healthcare for all...it’s about time...it’s the right thing to do...it’s the fiscally responsible thing to do...it’s the human thing to do.
Anyone who says that universal healthcare could never happen here are echoing and parroting the lies of the profit machine.

 

[Skarekrow]

I completely agree with you. Yeah, they do not care about fiscal responsibility. They never have really.

The GOP can no longer claim it believes in fiscal responsibility

It’s all about profits over people...it has been that way for a long time...but since the mid 90’s we have seen healthcare cost grow exponentially to a point of ridiculousness if it were not reality.
It’s time to tell those businesses dictating indefensible prices for their services to fuck off.
It’s time to cut them out of the equation and have a real healthcare system for all.

 

[James]

I think America has historically had a different culture towards health care provision. The ideal of which I guess is that it funds innovation, and for the the very wealthy provides superlative healthcare. I think though even very poor countries like Cuba, have shown a more proactive and preventative health care system means, life expectancy can be greatly increased and health care costs lowered.

I think that's the road the UK should be looking for, spend money to save money - the byproduct being to provide the same or better level of health care with better outcomes, at lower cost. The NHS budget for 2015/16 in the UK was £116 billion - http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/about/Pages/overview.aspx

Just at a crude guess based on population that would be approx 5 x for the US so roughly $600-$700 billion. That's end to end though, and my guess is a national health care plan, at least covering the basics, could be implemented in the US at a much, much, lower figure. I think the barrier is far more the insurance companies opposition than financial. Though I do think some of the costs being levied for drugs now - may need regulation, where it is clearly exploitative profiteering.

In terms of finance, it would pay for itself, in many ways. It provides a level of social stability, a healthier workforce for employers, and makes the country more attractive to invest and employ people in. I think that would be part of the route to take - are there any ways could it lower costs and regulation for employers? Anything that can make a new plan more attractive to those who might have the power and influence to actually get it done. I think America is the only one of the G7 countries, not to have such a system. To me it needs a bi-partisan fact based plan to really make it happen.

That's just an outsiders perspective, and in no way would i endorse copying anything else from Cuba - apart from their preventative care approach.

 

[Vicarious]

Well...this is how we had it before the ACA enacted the patient protection laws that it imposed.
People had “insurance” that didn’t actually cover anything at all...they were bogus plans that left people high and dry when they needed healthcare.
I can’t believe the cuts to Medicaid for children...and most of those who voted for the Republicans self-identify as “Christians”, they are anti-abortion, pro-life, whatever you want to call it....but then the funding for any kind of care for that child once it is born is poorly funded already...this would be even worse...and estimated 8 million children would have lost health insurance.
That’s just sick in the head.

I agree that the ACA isn’t working great, and there are many who are paying very large premiums...but I don’t think anyone wants to see 24 million + lose health insurance to fix it....because it’s not 24 million of those who can afford to buy their own....it’s the elderly, the disabled, the poor, children, etc. who would suffer because of this.
I just don’t see how people can square such apathy in their mind and heart?
All this while the bill would have given huge tax breaks to the wealthy....Trump himself would have gotten a $2,183,552.00 tax break...while Granny gets thrown out in the street.

Once again...we need single payer...we need the ability to bargain for prices on medications.
When one pill can cost $600 a day for the rest of someone’s life...then something is rotten...someone is gouging someone.
The drug companies excuse of R&D cost is BS and old.
The people need to stand up for healthcare for all...it’s about time...it’s the right thing to do...it’s the fiscally responsible thing to do...it’s the human thing to do.
Anyone who says that universal healthcare could never happen here are echoing and parroting the lies of the profit machine.

Absolutely. I agree with all of this. I remember trying to work with the insurance companies before the ACA was enacted, when I worked in admitting. It was a nightmare, all of the hoops we had to jump through in order to get a patient pre-authorized for an inpatient hospitalization, whether acute or voluntary, which STILL wouldn't guarantee that they would actually pay. Then, they would want to discharge people too soon as well, often requiring patients to be readmitted, causing Medicare to "ding" the hospital for post-discharge readmissions, and the vicious cycle would start all over again with the insurance companies. It's just sickening. No one should have to choose between going bankrupt or ruining their credit and getting decent healthcare.

 

[Skarekrow]

I think America has historically had a different culture towards health care provision. The ideal of which I guess is that it funds innovation, and for the the very wealthy provides superlative healthcare. I think though even very poor countries like Cuba, have shown a more proactive and preventative health care system means, life expectancy can be greatly increased and health care costs lowered.

I think that's the road the UK should be looking for, spend money to save money - the byproduct being to provide the same or better level of health care with better outcomes, at lower cost. The NHS budget for 2015/16 in the UK was £116 billion - http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/about/Pages/overview.aspx

Just at a crude guess based on population that would be approx 5 x for the US so roughly $600-$700 billion. That's end to end though, and my guess is a national health care plan, at least covering the basics, could be implemented in the US at a much, much, lower figure. I think the barrier is far more the insurance companies opposition than financial. Though I do think some of the costs being levied for drugs now - may need regulation, where it is clearly exploitative profiteering.

In terms of finance, it would pay for itself, in many ways. It provides a level of social stability, a healthier workforce for employers, and makes the country more attractive to invest and employ people in. I think that would be part of the route to take - are there any ways could it lower costs and regulation for employers? Anything that can make a new plan more attractive to those who might have the power and influence to actually get it done. I think America is the only one of the G7 countries, not to have such a system. To me it needs a bi-partisan fact based plan to really make it happen.

That's just an outsiders perspective, and in no way would i endorse copying anything else from Cuba - apart from their preventative care approach.

It is totally feasible....it’s all a matter of priorities, that is where the people need to make themselves heard...because there really is an army of Lobbyists on the floors of Congress...it’s not only the insurance companies and drug companies...but it is the medical device manufacturers...I remember we got this new piece of equipment in the Neuro room before I stopped working there...it was called an O-Arm....as opposed to a C-Arm which take normal x-rays....this was basically a portable CT scanner...we all had to wear a shit-load of lead and hide behind lead shields every time we used it...we bought ours used at the hospital...the price? $1.5 million.
But Trump want to build a giant wall that we don’t need...double our Naval ships...give huge tax breaks to the wealthy while actually raising taxes on the poor and the middle class.
His tax plan destroys any social safety net program out there.
But back to the topic, it’s also the hospitals...we either get shorted by someone without insurance and then pass the cost onto the rest of those with insurance - which is part of why the costs have gone up. Because either way we pay for those who need emergency medical attention if they are insured or not....the cost or the savings gets passed onto the consumer. But we also have giant Catholic conglomerate hospital groups who give out multimillion dollar bonuses to their CEOs and upper management...they deserve some of the blame. The Doctors themselves deserve blame as well. Yes, you went to school for a long ass time...and yes you should be compensated for it....but I have worked with Surgeons who drive Lamborghinis...have been to their houses with wine cellars made of illegally imported rare wood...closets the size of my own living room....it is unnecessary and is not benefitting our economy while the majority of our population is living paycheck to paycheck with no extra capital to go spend and buy goods thus propping up the economy.
There is an estimated $21 Trillion hidden away in offshore bank accounts that should be going toward our nation and it’s infrastructure, medical care, etc., etc., you know taxes, that help to fund the stuff the rest of us who aren’t D. Trump are stupid enough to pay.
Then we have advertising....for drugs, for this or that...ask your doctor if you should take this new great drug!
Moda Healthcare spent $40 million to have it’s name on the Rose Garden Arena...so now it’s the Moda Center....that is in just one city.
All while people can’t pay their medical bills or afford to buy their medications....or must choose between meds and eating or heat.
Fuck them for doing that.
The profit factor needs to go.

Absolutely. I agree with all of this. I remember trying to work with the insurance companies before the ACA was enacted, when I worked in admitting. It was a nightmare, all of the hoops we had to jump through in order to get a patient pre-authorized for an inpatient hospitalization, whether acute or voluntary, which STILL wouldn't guarantee that they would actually pay. Then, they would want to discharge people too soon as well, often requiring patients to be readmitted, causing Medicare to "ding" the hospital for post-discharge readmissions, and the vicious cycle would start all over again with the insurance companies. It's just sickening. No one should have to choose between going bankrupt or ruining their credit and getting decent healthcare.

When my meds basically gave me a heart attack I was discharged a day too soon imho...I was having difficulty even walking...my BP was still up way too high....then when I went to get my medications I had been taking for pain for the last two years the insurance decided that it was too expensive and cut everyone off the drug. So I had to switch...which was poorly timed because of the other thing.
It honestly could have killed me...the amount of physical stress that all that put me under at once.
Thankfully that wasn’t the case with me....but for someone who might have been a bit older and not had as young of a heart it could have been disastrous.
Yes...hospitals hate pneumonia cases because the patients are not cost effective...they want heart attacks with a 3 day average stay and a half million dollar bill.
Disgusting.

 

[James]

It is totally feasible....it’s all a matter of priorities, that is where the people need to make themselves heard...because there really is an army of Lobbyists on the floors of Congress...it’s not only the insurance companies and drug companies...but it is the medical device manufacturers...I remember we got this new piece of equipment in the Neuro room before I stopped working there...it was called an O-Arm....as opposed to a C-Arm which take normal x-rays....this was basically a portable CT scanner...we all had to wear a shit-load of lead and hide behind lead shields every time we used it...we bought ours used at the hospital...the price? $1.5 million.
But Trump want to build a giant wall that we don’t need...double our Naval ships...give huge tax breaks to the wealthy while actually raising taxes on the poor and the middle class.
His tax plan destroys any social safety net program out there.
But back to the topic, it’s also the hospitals...we either get shorted by someone without insurance and then pass the cost onto the rest of those with insurance - which is part of why the costs have gone up. Because either way we pay for those who need emergency medical attention if they are insured or not....the cost or the savings gets passed onto the consumer. But we also have giant Catholic conglomerate hospital groups who give out multimillion dollar bonuses to their CEOs and upper management...they deserve some of the blame. The Doctors themselves deserve blame as well. Yes, you went to school for a long ass time...and yes you should be compensated for it....but I have worked with Surgeons who drive Lamborghinis...have been to their houses with wine cellars made of illegally imported rare wood...closets the size of my own living room....it is unnecessary and is not benefitting our economy while the majority of our population is living paycheck to paycheck with no extra capital to go spend and buy goods thus propping up the economy.
There is an estimated $21 Trillion hidden away in offshore bank accounts that should be going toward our nation and it’s infrastructure, medical care, etc., etc., you know taxes, that help to fund the stuff the rest of us who aren’t D. Trump are stupid enough to pay.
Then we have advertising....for drugs, for this or that...ask your doctor if you should take this new great drug!
Moda Healthcare spent $40 million to have it’s name on the Rose Garden Arena...so now it’s the Moda Center....that is in just one city.
All while people can’t pay their medical bills or afford to buy their medications....or must choose between meds and eating or heat.
Fuck them for doing that.
The profit factor needs to go.



When my meds basically gave me a heart attack I was discharged a day too soon imho...I was having difficulty even walking...my BP was still up way too high....then when I went to get my medications I had been taking for pain for the last two years the insurance decided that it was too expensive and cut everyone off the drug. So I had to switch...which was poorly timed because of the other thing.
It honestly could have killed me...the amount of physical stress that all that put me under at once.
Thankfully that wasn’t the case with me....but for someone who might have been a bit older and not had as young of a heart it could have been disastrous.
Yes...hospitals hate pneumonia cases because the patients are not cost effective...they want heart attacks with a 3 day average stay and a half million dollar bill.
Disgusting.

I agree with what you say, to me it shows the barbaric nature of 'unregulated' capitalism at it's worst. How anyone can attempt to justify the non-treatment of life threatening conditions, even for children, is insanity. I think though it will need a bi-partisan effort to get things changed. To push through and side line, the obstacles and barriers you describe.

Something I have learned the hard way, to get things done, sometimes you have to talk to and deal with people you disagree with. To find and focus on the few things you do agree on, and build from there.

How you describe the treatment given to you, seems outrageous. I can't get my head around how varied and complex the American system is. It seems bizarre. I would think even a 'state by state' basic care plan could save money. my guess would be as an employer, anything that lowered stress for my staff, gave me less headaches for regulation, and improved their health to attend work and perform i would be in favor of.