INFJ and Autism

acd · Jan 7, 2020

Ameline said:
I am a high functioning autistic person and INFJ.
I think the key here that people miss about empathy is that what most people are doing is not *really* empathy. They just put themselves into another's shoes, more or less sucessfully, and measure their empathy level on their enthusiasm for doing so rather than whether their imagination gives them a correct answer or not. That's how you get people claiming to be highly empathetic with animals who think a dog in distress is smiling or that a tense, skittish cat is in need of some cuddles. That also extends to people who's life experiences are vastly different to theirs, like not fully grasping the extent to which early trauma affects personality development or the psychological impact of poverty (demonstrated clearly with the penal system btw)
Similarily, the autistic brain is also different. I can't tell you how many times people tried to get empathetic with me by putting themselves in my shoes and spectacularly failing at correctly understanding what I feel (made worse by their insistence that they are correct). The opposite case was also frequently true. The issue is that the "actor" who you put into my shoes is nothing like me because my brain is different to your experience. Living in a neurotypical society, I had many "corrective experiences" on that account. Most people didn't.
That said, I consider myself a highly empathetic person. I learned to observe people and support my "feelings" with concrete findings. I don't put myself in other people's shoes the way I was taught empathy works. I observe how they are actually feeling without imposing, which is actually more natural to me. Some even called me psychic for that when I was more open about it. I yearn for connection and do my best to make others feel better. One way my autism comes into the mix is my utter confusion on how to apply social expectations to the mix, though. Say, I've met a guy who was missing his hand. He was very non-challant about it and made constant jokes about the fact. I noticed the frayed edges of that presentation right away, though. An anxiety, determination to not be vulnerable, a fight for self-worth. I wished to connect to him, make him feel like everything's fine and make sure to get him understand that he's an amazing human being (which I was sure of after spending a few days in his company). I failed to understand how to do that without breaking through boudaries set up by his mask, though. Another time I was talking with a girl I knew. She talked about how happy she's with her boyfriend and how great it is since they moved in together. She projected a happy, confident persona, but I noticed a pattern of fear and unease at the edges. My thought was that he's abusive. I was rather certain. I later turned out to be right. But I didn't know how to get close enough for that discussion to be appropriate since we weren't close. I was so confused that I hid in the bathroom, actually. I felt that there's something that needs to be addressed, but there literally is no template how to breach the surface and dive into what's real. And I couldn't continue with the interaction on the surface level. Social rules make people happy, but they're also a tools to hide the real things behind ritual and masks. That's incredibly confusing.

I think the trouble with typing autistics is that you're trying to determine the personality of a cat living in a world of dogs. The behavior of the cat will not be true to it's personality in that environment because it's pressured to cope and conform with something alien to it. I don't think that this "adjusted" personality has much weight, rather one should look inward to understand their inner workings instead of relying on performance in such a case. For example if I lived in a world of people of the same neurotype, I would struggle significantly less with connection and my unique way of understanding the world would not be discounted (and not force me to adopt a meachanically sound "thinking" strategy that I could demonstrate).

This is really interesting and helpful. I hope you stick around and share more perspectives.

Asa · Jan 7, 2020

Ameline said:
I am a high functioning autistic person and INFJ.

Welcome, Ameline. I'm already enjoying your presence here and hope you stick around.

Ameline said:
I think the key here that people miss about empathy is that what most people are doing is not *really* empathy. They just put themselves into another's shoes, more or less sucessfully, and measure their empathy level on their enthusiasm for doing so rather than whether their imagination gives them a correct answer or not. That's how you get people claiming to be highly empathetic with animals who think a dog in distress is smiling or that a tense, skittish cat is in need of some cuddles. That also extends to people who's life experiences are vastly different to theirs, like not fully grasping the extent to which early trauma affects personality development or the psychological impact of poverty (demonstrated clearly with the penal system btw)

I notice this, too, and it really bothers me. Instead of trying to understand animal behavior and treat animals in a way that makes sense to the animals, they act to please themselves.
It is the same with relating to other humans.

Ameline said:
Similarily, the autistic brain is also different. I can't tell you how many times people tried to get empathetic with me by putting themselves in my shoes and spectacularly failing at correctly understanding what I feel (made worse by their insistence that they are correct). The opposite case was also frequently true. The issue is that the "actor" who you put into my shoes is nothing like me because my brain is different to your experience. Living in a neurotypical society, I had many "corrective experiences" on that account. Most people didn't.

Thank you for giving the above analogies and common errors and relating it to your own situation.

Ameline said:
(made worse by their insistence that they are correct).

I don't understand why people argue they know other people better than those people know themselves. (Well, I do think I understand why people are like this, but it is annoying. Haha.)

I don't think what you are describing is true empathy, but people pantomiming empathy. They are not feeling what the other person feels but imagining how they would feel, which is not the same thing at all. It doesn't mean they do not care when they mess up this way, but we could all learn from listening and you are giving a good example by sharing your own life experiences. So, thank you again.

Ameline said:
That said, I consider myself a highly empathetic person. I learned to observe people and support my "feelings" with concrete findings. I don't put myself in other people's shoes the way I was taught empathy works. I observe how they are actually feeling without imposing, which is actually more natural to me. Some even called me psychic for that when I was more open about it. I yearn for connection and do my best to make others feel better. One way my autism comes into the mix is my utter confusion on how to apply social expectations to the mix, though. Say, I've met a guy who was missing his hand. He was very non-challant about it and made constant jokes about the fact. I noticed the frayed edges of that presentation right away, though. An anxiety, determination to not be vulnerable, a fight for self-worth. I wished to connect to him, make him feel like everything's fine and make sure to get him understand that he's an amazing human being (which I was sure of after spending a few days in his company). I failed to understand how to do that without breaking through boudaries set up by his mask, though. Another time I was talking with a girl I knew. She talked about how happy she's with her boyfriend and how great it is since they moved in together. She projected a happy, confident persona, but I noticed a pattern of fear and unease at the edges. My thought was that he's abusive. I was rather certain. I later turned out to be right. But I didn't know how to get close enough for that discussion to be appropriate since we weren't close. I was so confused that I hid in the bathroom, actually. I felt that there's something that needs to be addressed, but there literally is no template how to breach the surface and dive into what's real. And I couldn't continue with the interaction on the surface level. Social rules make people happy, but they're also a tools to hide the real things behind ritual and masks. That's incredibly confusing.

This is all relatable. Even if you are "seeing through people" it is hard to know how to react unless you know the person well. Try to take the social cues from them. If they're not discussing it, don't bring it up. In the case of the woman in an abusive relationship, try to form a friendship so your support is there when she needs it, but don't bring up something you sense if she doesn't speak about it unless you know for a fact that she is in danger. Real danger is worth losing a friendship over, but if you wreck the friendship by bringing it up when she is ignoring it, you won't be able to help her when she needs it.

Ameline said:
Social rules make people happy, but they're also a tools to hide the real things behind ritual and masks.

Yes, it is true. And a lot of the time social rules are not very helpful. Haha.

Ameline said:
I think the trouble with typing autistics is that you're trying to determine the personality of a cat living in a world of dogs. The behavior of the cat will not be true to it's personality in that environment because it's pressured to cope and conform with something alien to it. I don't think that this "adjusted" personality has much weight, rather one should look inward to understand their inner workings instead of relying on performance in such a case. For example if I lived in a world of people of the same neurotype, I would struggle significantly less with connection and my unique way of understanding the world would not be discounted (and not force me to adopt a meachanically sound "thinking" strategy that I could demonstrate).

This is a good analogy. To an extent we all evaluate others by comparing to self, but I disdain this method when used as a "scientific" method that creates otherism, or skewed data based on self-perception vs "the other", or when we are not aware that self is not the starting point.

This must be so frustrating at times. Do you have places you can go to just be you, instead of a cat in a dog world? Do you imagine a time in the future when autism is accepted and not considered "other"? I do. I think things may change as autism becomes better understood and more prevalent (with proper diagnoses).

Yollie · Sep 16, 2020

I think that any MBTI type can have Asperger's/ASD, but statistically, I've heard that INTX types are the most common.

Zola · Nov 22, 2020

The way I see it, Fi causes people to feel sympathy by projecting their own experiences onto others. "I have been in that situation before, and it made me feel like this, so the other person probably feels that way, too." The sympathy is filtered through their own value system. It can elicit strong emotions and a feeling of righteousness that borders on advocacy.

In contrast, Fe observes without internalizing. It doesn't run through the prism of our own personal experience. It's cool-headed and accurate. This is true empathy.

Example: When my cat was dying, I used Fi. I judged her by my own viewpoint, thinking she was sad and afraid. Then she caught a baby rabbit and gutted it. Then she caught a squirrel and strangled it to death. She had a good time. At first, I was appalled and angry. Then I realized my error and self-corrected to using Fe. I had been judging her end-of-life experience by human standards. She, herself, in no way felt sad or afraid any more than she felt sorry for that rabbit and squirrel. To be sure, she was sick: she felt tired, hungry, thirsty, nauseated, or sometimes in pain. But the rest of it was my own interpretation. She went out of this life like the hunter and warrior she was.

Ruthy · Jan 10, 2021

TheFoolishOwl said:
I was wondering how an INFJ autist would function considering that Autism, especially high functionning autism, is often associated with an extreme thinking preference due to a different developmental pattern.

However, my guess would be that while Autists would tend score as thinkers, many of them could actually be feelers and not know it because they would look more like someone in a loop than the usual person of one type.

What do you think ? Does anyone have Autism here to help me understand ? Or just an opinion.

I do actually have autism, and am infj. For me, I have a very hard time, or rather I can't read social cues. So I am very empathetic and understand people mostly, but I can't understand them at all at the same time. I can't "read people" in the awesome way the infjs say they do, but I am undoubtedly infj. I tend to think about book characters a lot and to understand them and enjoy analyzing the characters in my mind (not with English teachers). I enjoy phycology and Philosophy as many other infjs do.

Truth is though, I really do struggle with understanding people. I have never hated anyone, and I have never been bullied. Ever. I don't know why this is, and I don't know if it's things other autistic infjs experience, if it's just me, or if it's because the people around me just aren't like that. For a long long time I thought it was just the last explanation, but looking back at all the places I've been, I find that highly unlikely. So now's the question: Have I been bullied and I just haven't realized it, or have people just been naturally against hurting me. I honestly don't know. I've never hated anyone, and I can say that I've treated everyone pretty much equally, and perhaps because I am autistic, I never naturally realized when someone was doing something to me, unless it was physical, which didn't happen to me, being that I was never really alone with other kids my age, and adults don't let that happen. I do thing I was deceived once, by a girl, when I was away at sleep away camp. I really did like her and considered her a friend. Looking back, I think she may have been messing with me a lot and was lying to me about things. But, see, I never noticed. And she probably didn't want to hang out with me a lot, but that was fine because I was usually in my own world anyway. I never really sought out attention from other kids, because for one thing I was able to go without it because I could entertain myself in my mind, but also because I noticed that kids didn't really want to be my friend. Probably because I just have a very different personality type and can't pick up on social cues. I told myself that going over and talking to people was probably just me trying to get attention, me asking questions was again, just away of trying to impress people and annoying them, because no one cares. I thinking must've annoyed people, because I remember once in class I was telling a girl my dream, and she just looked at me and said, "I don't care." I thought, ok, she doesn't care. That's fine, it doesn't offend me (I've been telling myself it doesn't offend me for years) This is just advice. Don't talk to people. I still did though. That was basically what I worked on I'm middle school, teaching myself not to be more social, but to be less social and quiety and to not talk, which was hard because I am naturally a talkative person. So I started thinking a lot in my mind about fictional characters from the books I read, and they were basically my life. All I ever thought about was them, and what they did, and different scenarios they went through, and so I had not friends. I did have some friends through out my life, substantial connections that I would count as friends, not including my family, because I am very close with all of them. I can count all those friend off my fingers though. Now that I'm older, though, and I've been able to catch up to my peers I don't know how, I just know that I can interact better with them, I have made friends, 3 good ones in particular, and I can say it has made all the difference in my life. Them, and the connection with my family as long as I have known them, has been a positive one. It is because I have always gotten along so well with my family and been loved by them, that I have never felt like something as wrong with me. That, and overall autism and childhood naivety, both of which have actually saved my self esteem tremendously. Honestly, I have been so blessed to have them.

Ok, that's a lot I wrote there. If you are reading this, thank you, I hope you found that interesting. This is something I've told no one irl, so feel honored. Bye, have a nice life.

Mike S · Jan 14, 2022

I retired from fire dept in 2020 one week before all the covid lockdowns. I've struggled with moving forward and rejoining the social system. I was awarded a Disability Pension and diagnosed with uncontrolled HTN, PTSD, Depression, Anxiety. Over the past 5 years or so Ive really been trying to understand why Ive felt so awkward and broken my whole life. The therapists and psychs that I was assigned from work had no experience with fire dept issues let alone ASD. Now that I reflect on my life and my youth I can see clearly that ASD has been with me. Growing up I would have difficulty with being around numbers like phone numbers and letters like on license plates or billboards. My brain would start to multiply, add, divide, etc to come up with different solutions to self-created math problems. My mind would and still does attempt to form words or assign numbers to letters and 'decode' them. I used to complain to mom as a child that it bothered me and she just told me I was smart. I was homeschooled until 4th grade and would do my own schoolwork and then do my sisters who was two grades higher than me and I would get 100% on everything.

My mom would tell me that I should play with my brother and sister but I always like playing alone better. My brother is a year older than me and my sister two years older. So, we were close enough in age to play but found it difficult. As a kid when we would play in the neighborhood or hang out I was the one that wouldnt say anything or was at the back of the group and didnt seem to matter to anyone. It would always amaze me how people would communicate and laugh and discuss off-topic things. I have no ability to carry a conversation that has no meaning to me. When faced with social situations I learned early that drinking helped me and I would become a completely different person that was outgoing and people liked. I also learned that discussion in social situations are extremely difficult for me and drain me very fast. When discussing a topic a lot of the times I need ruminate the new information even if I dont necessarily agree with it. Ive notice my brain switches from the posterior 'critical thinking' and becomes a very fast, anxious, thought process that seems to move a the forward part of my thinking (like fight or flight)...

When I went into school in the 4th grade it was very difficult for me to adjust. I was raised a strict protestant and understood its morals and ethics very well. My mom, I believe, is mentally ill by my assessment, at least from a childs perspective. My mom had a friend and they would get together and this lady would 'visions' from God, so she said. A lot of this memory came out after attending therapy, but I believe all this recollection has only hurt me. Ive built walls in my mind my entire life as this is the only way I know how to deal with things. If not they loop in my head like numbers and letters. One such time this lady came over she told my mom she had a dream that there was burried treasure in our backyard. I remember looking out that back door and watching this lady and my mom walk around the yard and this lady would begin to 'get weak' where she felt 'the power of god'...me and my brother had to dig up half that back yard. Then she had a vision it was under a fruit tree but we had none in the yard. So, we had a hong kong orchid tree that my dad planted and he said for me and my brother to dig out...alas, nothing. Then, it switched to the front yard. If people asked what we were doing we were to tell them burying a time capsule. This lady has influenced my mom and still does. When I was kid my mom told me the holy spirit told her Iwas snorting cocaine because I got nosebleeds while playing basket ball a few times. She told my brother he would grow up to be like Ted BUndy if he didnt change his ways. We werent allowed to own tapes, CDs or watch almost nothing as a kid. We werent allowed to play sports because my mom didnt trust anybody. My relationship with my parents has always been strained though I was once deemed the golden child. I had straight A's and perfect conduct until being placed in a high school full of nothing but trash and racists of all kinds.

I attemted to have a relationship with my parents several times. My mom always cut everyone out of her life that didnt agree with her religious views including her entire catholic family and my dad's parents. I knew it was a matter of time before I was cut off. Ive always had this overhwleming desire to make everyone happy and just couldnt understand and still dont why I dont fit in and why my brother can still go back there and my sister who never left because my mom brain-washed her.
My mom's friend I spoke of earlier has always tried to influence my mom's choices...I went to my parents house to talk with my mom about growing up and childhood and why I felt the way I do and she completely denied everything and told me my feelings arent valid because that stuff never happened. My brother remembers. A couple times as kids she told us the world was ending and I got her to let us open up our christmas gifts early.

I could say a lot more, far worse things that weve had to deal with. My dad was raped by a catholic priest as a kid for 3 years and his dad was raped by one as well. There is a lot of alcohol abuse and anger and rage in my family...

It was difficult for me as such a sensitive kid to live in that house. I felt all my dads pain. It always overwhelmed me so I taught myself to block things out. Others pain has always overwhelmed to the point of spontaneously started crying when seeing a homeless person. But Ive taught myself, through repition, to wall off thoughts.

Since Ive retire Ive had a lot of time to reflect. Ive taken my autism test and they all rate my very high. My wife filled one out by her perception of me and she rated me even higher. I know a Dr who has dealt with other patients and said a diagnosis at this point is just for paper.

I was placed on light duty before retiring from the fire dept as I was getting sever htn just walking into a fire station. While on light duty my emotions started coming out that Ive surpressed my entire life and felt i needed to be alone. i feel therapy has only made things worse as i was forced to remember everything at once. After leaving the fire dept I only kept in touch with 2-3 people and only by text once or twice every few months. Now, I have completely cut off contact with everyone. Being around fire dept related things including guys I worked with brings in floods of emotion that overwhelms me and forces my brain from critical thinking to fight or flight. It cause me great anxiety and in times past only drinking would stop it. I havent had a drink in 5 years and my social life has become nothing. I was drinking a lot of whiskey to help deal with all the pain and confusion Ive always felt. I havent talked to anyone since august last year. My wife doesnt say much and I think just realizes after being with me since 16 that my mind works different. Her and I shouldve never got married but thats another point. We are here now and have been married for 22 years and have to kids. I left home and 16 and got married at 20.

So, the problem Im facing is moving forward. My mind has never been able to 'group its thoughts'....my mind hops around on different tracks. I cant organize my thought process into something makes a function? if that make sense.

I was good at being a firefighter/paramedic because I was given protocols. A set of rules. Im good at memorizing and recalling things like rules. This is how Im able to operate. With rules. Societal rules. I have a hard time when others dont follow societal rules/social norms because thats how Ive learned to operated. One of the most difficult times in my career was when they did a large revamp of our protocols. My mind used those protocols as scripture - written in stone and now felt like I was being forced to learn new rules that completely contradicted the old ones.

My mind is missing something other people have that allow them to communicate freely. When Im around people I get overwhelmed by every other noise, conversation, facial expressions, smells, while constantly trying to think of something brilliant to say. I learned how to make jokes and have use that as my only tool and sometimes I dont think I know where 'the line' is in my current company. Everyone has become a victim too and sometimes I dont understand things I say until after I say them. Its hard to explain. I can read peoples emotions but not what they are thinking. I can predict the future but can make a decision, my has said Im psychic.

I dont know how to move forward. Im stuck. I sit at my house every day and collect plants. I feel like something in me broke. Im not the same person I used to be. Im not happy, ever. I have no friends that I could really connect with or any worth connecting. My brother, my only friend, got married and moved away this past year. I dont want to work in this area as I dont want to see anyone Ive worked with. The fire staions are just down the street and I can hear when their sirens go off.

Im trying to understand if I will ever find a way to function on my own? The fire dept gave me structure and forced me to be hang out with people. Though, as one can imagine, medical issues started to arise and it was like I was plugging holes for the last portion of my career.

The fire dept was my life and my wife is an ER nurse and I would drop off patients to her and we had a lot of the same friend groups from our employment. I feel like im neutered. Ive lost my pride. Ive lost my life. I dont know how to pick up and move forward. My mind is stuck in a loop.Therapy hasnt helped and has only made it worse. Ive got a script for marijauna now and have started just using that to make time disappear. I have no relationship with my wife other than watching The Office at night... Im lost.

I just cant figure out how to move forward. i have no desire to work in or near this city as I dont want to have to see people I worked with while Im working some other job. i dont need the money either.

Enso · Jan 14, 2022

Mike S said:
I retired from fire dept in 2020 one week before all the covid lockdowns. I've struggled with moving forward and rejoining the social system. I was awarded a Disability Pension and diagnosed with uncontrolled HTN, PTSD, Depression, Anxiety. Over the past 5 years or so Ive really been trying to understand why Ive felt so awkward and broken my whole life. The therapists and psychs that I was assigned from work had no experience with fire dept issues let alone ASD. Now that I reflect on my life and my youth I can see clearly that ASD has been with me. Growing up I would have difficulty with being around numbers like phone numbers and letters like on license plates or billboards. My brain would start to multiply, add, divide, etc to come up with different solutions to self-created math problems. My mind would and still does attempt to form words or assign numbers to letters and 'decode' them. I used to complain to mom as a child that it bothered me and she just told me I was smart. I was homeschooled until 4th grade and would do my own schoolwork and then do my sisters who was two grades higher than me and I would get 100% on everything.

My mom would tell me that I should play with my brother and sister but I always like playing alone better. My brother is a year older than me and my sister two years older. So, we were close enough in age to play but found it difficult. As a kid when we would play in the neighborhood or hang out I was the one that wouldnt say anything or was at the back of the group and didnt seem to matter to anyone. It would always amaze me how people would communicate and laugh and discuss off-topic things. I have no ability to carry a conversation that has no meaning to me. When faced with social situations I learned early that drinking helped me and I would become a completely different person that was outgoing and people liked. I also learned that discussion in social situations are extremely difficult for me and drain me very fast. When discussing a topic a lot of the times I need ruminate the new information even if I dont necessarily agree with it. Ive notice my brain switches from the posterior 'critical thinking' and becomes a very fast, anxious, thought process that seems to move a the forward part of my thinking (like fight or flight)...

When I went into school in the 4th grade it was very difficult for me to adjust. I was raised a strict protestant and understood its morals and ethics very well. My mom, I believe, is mentally ill by my assessment, at least from a childs perspective. My mom had a friend and they would get together and this lady would 'visions' from God, so she said. A lot of this memory came out after attending therapy, but I believe all this recollection has only hurt me. Ive built walls in my mind my entire life as this is the only way I know how to deal with things. If not they loop in my head like numbers and letters. One such time this lady came over she told my mom she had a dream that there was burried treasure in our backyard. I remember looking out that back door and watching this lady and my mom walk around the yard and this lady would begin to 'get weak' where she felt 'the power of god'...me and my brother had to dig up half that back yard. Then she had a vision it was under a fruit tree but we had none in the yard. So, we had a hong kong orchid tree that my dad planted and he said for me and my brother to dig out...alas, nothing. Then, it switched to the front yard. If people asked what we were doing we were to tell them burying a time capsule. This lady has influenced my mom and still does. When I was kid my mom told me the holy spirit told her Iwas snorting cocaine because I got nosebleeds while playing basket ball a few times. She told my brother he would grow up to be like Ted BUndy if he didnt change his ways. We werent allowed to own tapes, CDs or watch almost nothing as a kid. We werent allowed to play sports because my mom didnt trust anybody. My relationship with my parents has always been strained though I was once deemed the golden child. I had straight A's and perfect conduct until being placed in a high school full of nothing but trash and racists of all kinds.

I attemted to have a relationship with my parents several times. My mom always cut everyone out of her life that didnt agree with her religious views including her entire catholic family and my dad's parents. I knew it was a matter of time before I was cut off. Ive always had this overhwleming desire to make everyone happy and just couldnt understand and still dont why I dont fit in and why my brother can still go back there and my sister who never left because my mom brain-washed her.
My mom's friend I spoke of earlier has always tried to influence my mom's choices...I went to my parents house to talk with my mom about growing up and childhood and why I felt the way I do and she completely denied everything and told me my feelings arent valid because that stuff never happened. My brother remembers. A couple times as kids she told us the world was ending and I got her to let us open up our christmas gifts early.

I could say a lot more, far worse things that weve had to deal with. My dad was raped by a catholic priest as a kid for 3 years and his dad was raped by one as well. There is a lot of alcohol abuse and anger and rage in my family...

It was difficult for me as such a sensitive kid to live in that house. I felt all my dads pain. It always overwhelmed me so I taught myself to block things out. Others pain has always overwhelmed to the point of spontaneously started crying when seeing a homeless person. But Ive taught myself, through repition, to wall off thoughts.

Since Ive retire Ive had a lot of time to reflect. Ive taken my autism test and they all rate my very high. My wife filled one out by her perception of me and she rated me even higher. I know a Dr who has dealt with other patients and said a diagnosis at this point is just for paper.

I was placed on light duty before retiring from the fire dept as I was getting sever htn just walking into a fire station. While on light duty my emotions started coming out that Ive surpressed my entire life and felt i needed to be alone. i feel therapy has only made things worse as i was forced to remember everything at once. After leaving the fire dept I only kept in touch with 2-3 people and only by text once or twice every few months. Now, I have completely cut off contact with everyone. Being around fire dept related things including guys I worked with brings in floods of emotion that overwhelms me and forces my brain from critical thinking to fight or flight. It cause me great anxiety and in times past only drinking would stop it. I havent had a drink in 5 years and my social life has become nothing. I was drinking a lot of whiskey to help deal with all the pain and confusion Ive always felt. I havent talked to anyone since august last year. My wife doesnt say much and I think just realizes after being with me since 16 that my mind works different. Her and I shouldve never got married but thats another point. We are here now and have been married for 22 years and have to kids. I left home and 16 and got married at 20.

So, the problem Im facing is moving forward. My mind has never been able to 'group its thoughts'....my mind hops around on different tracks. I cant organize my thought process into something makes a function? if that make sense.

I was good at being a firefighter/paramedic because I was given protocols. A set of rules. Im good at memorizing and recalling things like rules. This is how Im able to operate. With rules. Societal rules. I have a hard time when others dont follow societal rules/social norms because thats how Ive learned to operated. One of the most difficult times in my career was when they did a large revamp of our protocols. My mind used those protocols as scripture - written in stone and now felt like I was being forced to learn new rules that completely contradicted the old ones.

My mind is missing something other people have that allow them to communicate freely. When Im around people I get overwhelmed by every other noise, conversation, facial expressions, smells, while constantly trying to think of something brilliant to say. I learned how to make jokes and have use that as my only tool and sometimes I dont think I know where 'the line' is in my current company. Everyone has become a victim too and sometimes I dont understand things I say until after I say them. Its hard to explain. I can read peoples emotions but not what they are thinking. I can predict the future but can make a decision, my has said Im psychic.

I dont know how to move forward. Im stuck. I sit at my house every day and collect plants. I feel like something in me broke. Im not the same person I used to be. Im not happy, ever. I have no friends that I could really connect with or any worth connecting. My brother, my only friend, got married and moved away this past year. I dont want to work in this area as I dont want to see anyone Ive worked with. The fire staions are just down the street and I can hear when their sirens go off.

Im trying to understand if I will ever find a way to function on my own? The fire dept gave me structure and forced me to be hang out with people. Though, as one can imagine, medical issues started to arise and it was like I was plugging holes for the last portion of my career.

The fire dept was my life and my wife is an ER nurse and I would drop off patients to her and we had a lot of the same friend groups from our employment. I feel like im neutered. Ive lost my pride. Ive lost my life. I dont know how to pick up and move forward. My mind is stuck in a loop.Therapy hasnt helped and has only made it worse. Ive got a script for marijauna now and have started just using that to make time disappear. I have no relationship with my wife other than watching The Office at night... Im lost.

I just cant figure out how to move forward. i have no desire to work in or near this city as I dont want to have to see people I worked with while Im working some other job. i dont need the money either.

Wow, thanks for sharing that was quiet a read. One thing that's pretty universal is that people are not good at stagnating, having a job that you at least semi enjoy keeps the routine and keeps people out of their head. Obviously hobbies do this too but there are only so many hobbies you can do and they don't pay the bills. There are some jobs out there you could do to ease yourself back into the workforce, things like uber or similar delivery type jobs where you work by yourself but you still interact with people and you are your own boss. These types of jobs can be a starting point until you figure out what you really want to do and they could get you out of the stagnation states. One thing to also consider is that people often go through hard times in life and they are specifically there for growth, whether you believe in god or something else there is always brightness on the other side it's and usually you get there by doing things rather than excessive contemplation. I often find insights come on their own throughout the day without having to sit and contemplate everything and all my issues, otherwise that just makes them worse.

Mike S · Jan 15, 2022

Enso said:
Wow, thanks for sharing that was quiet a read. One thing that's pretty universal is that people are not good at stagnating, having a job that you at least semi enjoy keeps the routine and keeps people out of their head. Obviously hobbies do this too but there are only so many hobbies you can do and they don't pay the bills. There are some jobs out there you could do to ease yourself back into the workforce, things like uber or similar delivery type jobs where you work by yourself but you still interact with people and you are your own boss. These types of jobs can be a starting point until you figure out what you really want to do and they could get you out of the stagnation states. One thing to also consider is that people often go through hard times in life and they are specifically there for growth, whether you believe in god or something else there is always brightness on the other side it's and usually you get there by doing things rather than excessive contemplation. I often find insights come on their own throughout the day without having to sit and contemplate everything and all my issues, otherwise that just makes them worse.

One of my biggest issues is not wanting to work in this city I live because the people I worked with live all over this city. Admittedly, I have become somewhat neurotic as well to this point. I avoid going to the grocery store at certain times because I know thats when the firefighters shop. I avoid driving down certain roads where fire stations are. Just today someone from the FD was knocking on doors soliciting their candidate for mayor. I knew the firefighter well but would never consider even answering my door. All of my life has been lived in this city and every street has another ghost of a bad call or patient that died. The catholic church just down the street from me is where my dad was raped. Housing prices have increased so dramatically that we would be foolish to move just to get in debt. My wife has worked for a hospital for almost 20 years and we live 1/2 mile from it.

The only thing I enjoy doing is growing fruit trees. I couldnt see myself doing anything else. ever. Unfortunately, property where I live is over $200k and acre and would be unprofitable to attempt to start a fruit farm. I gave everything in me to my fire dept job and have nothing left to give. I feel I just need seclusion. When I have even considered another job or career or going back to school nothing even compares with being a firefighter/medic. There is no feeling in the world I could compare with it. The stuff you see and the things you do...I will admit that as a firefighter I dreaded going to work a lot because I was mentally and emotionally fried. But there is something that comes with growing close to people you otherwise would never have met and living, sleeping, bleeding, and trying to save lives together. I get depressed just thinking about working another job. I feel so ashamed. I feel utterly worthless and not worthy of my pension. Most days I just want to die and just cant figure out how to make it work again. Ive lived in depression going nearly 4 years now with moments of what I thought was happiness.

My wife suffers. She is an extrovert and desires friendships with her friends and to go out but I havent been out with her or anyone my old friends in years now. Life has lost all its luster. I ignore phone calls of guys that do call or text. I have nothing to offer and nothing to say. I have done nothing with my time. And dont want them to see me like this.

Havent spoke to my parents or sister in almost 10 years. They live 15 minutes away.

Ive been retired nearly two years and am just about 43 years old now. I have only left the house to go grocery shopping and to purchase plants a couple times. I havent done anything. No vacations for nearly 5 years. I am just dead inside. I just dont feel like I can even consider a job that doesnt provide a shred dignity. I hate myself right now and am not motivated to do anything other than buy plants and then walk around my yard and look at them.

I dont want to see anything from the fire dept. So it limits my interactions. I hate attention and if I ran into someone I knew I would cry. I also hate eye contact so it makes even more difficult..... Its just how it is. Ever since seeing a therapist my emotions have surfaced and havent gone away. So I avoid. Its all I can do.

I just feel like Ive lived a lie. I mentally/physically wasnt able to be a firefighter so shouldve never been one. I feel like a fraud. Ive never been good at much but I received rewards as a medic. The funny thing was I always had a fear of blood but when my wife told me she was pregnant at 21 I knew I had to quit college and get a job fast and the fire dept was there. Its like being forced to take a drug and then being forced to quit...I think and INFJ wth ASD should never consider being a ff/medic. I cant believe the shit Ive done and now waste away.

I feel like Ive been hit from so many sides I dont know which way is up any more.

MoonFlier · Jan 16, 2022

Mike S said:
One of my biggest issues is not wanting to work in this city I live because the people I worked with live all over this city. Admittedly, I have become somewhat neurotic as well to this point. I avoid going to the grocery store at certain times because I know thats when the firefighters shop. I avoid driving down certain roads where fire stations are. Just today someone from the FD was knocking on doors soliciting their candidate for mayor. I knew the firefighter well but would never consider even answering my door. All of my life has been lived in this city and every street has another ghost of a bad call or patient that died. The catholic church just down the street from me is where my dad was raped. Housing prices have increased so dramatically that we would be foolish to move just to get in debt. My wife has worked for a hospital for almost 20 years and we live 1/2 mile from it.

The only thing I enjoy doing is growing fruit trees. I couldnt see myself doing anything else. ever. Unfortunately, property where I live is over $200k and acre and would be unprofitable to attempt to start a fruit farm. I gave everything in me to my fire dept job and have nothing left to give. I feel I just need seclusion. When I have even considered another job or career or going back to school nothing even compares with being a firefighter/medic. There is no feeling in the world I could compare with it. The stuff you see and the things you do...I will admit that as a firefighter I dreaded going to work a lot because I was mentally and emotionally fried. But there is something that comes with growing close to people you otherwise would never have met and living, sleeping, bleeding, and trying to save lives together. I get depressed just thinking about working another job. I feel so ashamed. I feel utterly worthless and not worthy of my pension. Most days I just want to die and just cant figure out how to make it work again. Ive lived in depression going nearly 4 years now with moments of what I thought was happiness.

My wife suffers. She is an extrovert and desires friendships with her friends and to go out but I havent been out with her or anyone my old friends in years now. Life has lost all its luster. I ignore phone calls of guys that do call or text. I have nothing to offer and nothing to say. I have done nothing with my time. And dont want them to see me like this.

Havent spoke to my parents or sister in almost 10 years. They live 15 minutes away.

Ive been retired nearly two years and am just about 43 years old now. I have only left the house to go grocery shopping and to purchase plants a couple times. I havent done anything. No vacations for nearly 5 years. I am just dead inside. I just dont feel like I can even consider a job that doesnt provide a shred dignity. I hate myself right now and am not motivated to do anything other than buy plants and then walk around my yard and look at them.

I dont want to see anything from the fire dept. So it limits my interactions. I hate attention and if I ran into someone I knew I would cry. I also hate eye contact so it makes even more difficult..... Its just how it is. Ever since seeing a therapist my emotions have surfaced and havent gone away. So I avoid. Its all I can do.

I just feel like Ive lived a lie. I mentally/physically wasnt able to be a firefighter so shouldve never been one. I feel like a fraud. Ive never been good at much but I received rewards as a medic. The funny thing was I always had a fear of blood but when my wife told me she was pregnant at 21 I knew I had to quit college and get a job fast and the fire dept was there. Its like being forced to take a drug and then being forced to quit...I think and INFJ wth ASD should never consider being a ff/medic. I cant believe the shit Ive done and now waste away.

I feel like Ive been hit from so many sides I dont know which way is up any more.

It seems you and I are opposite sides of the same coin Mike, nice to meet you.
So much of what you've written i could take verbatim and pop under my blog (I won't) but just saying I really feel you, and also fight for life and joy every day. These are conscious decisions we make.

I believe being forced into a job that you've held for ages does horrible things to our psyche, and not just INFJs, anyone. Add our desire to help and dedicate ourselves to our jobs and it's a recipe for disaster as the damage is seared onto our souls. We question who we are, long for the innocence of youth and ability to remake ourselves but that time has passed and all we have is the future. But is it ever too late to find that child within? Our dreams are still there, we just need to remember them and bring them out a little at a time.

Keep fighting for that joy. You deserve it.

Roses In The Vineyard · Jan 17, 2022

Mike S said:
One of my biggest issues is not wanting to work in this city I live because the people I worked with live all over this city. Admittedly, I have become somewhat neurotic as well to this point. I avoid going to the grocery store at certain times because I know thats when the firefighters shop. I avoid driving down certain roads where fire stations are. Just today someone from the FD was knocking on doors soliciting their candidate for mayor. I knew the firefighter well but would never consider even answering my door. All of my life has been lived in this city and every street has another ghost of a bad call or patient that died. The catholic church just down the street from me is where my dad was raped. Housing prices have increased so dramatically that we would be foolish to move just to get in debt. My wife has worked for a hospital for almost 20 years and we live 1/2 mile from it.

The only thing I enjoy doing is growing fruit trees. I couldnt see myself doing anything else. ever. Unfortunately, property where I live is over $200k and acre and would be unprofitable to attempt to start a fruit farm. I gave everything in me to my fire dept job and have nothing left to give. I feel I just need seclusion. When I have even considered another job or career or going back to school nothing even compares with being a firefighter/medic. There is no feeling in the world I could compare with it. The stuff you see and the things you do...I will admit that as a firefighter I dreaded going to work a lot because I was mentally and emotionally fried. But there is something that comes with growing close to people you otherwise would never have met and living, sleeping, bleeding, and trying to save lives together. I get depressed just thinking about working another job. I feel so ashamed. I feel utterly worthless and not worthy of my pension. Most days I just want to die and just cant figure out how to make it work again. Ive lived in depression going nearly 4 years now with moments of what I thought was happiness.

My wife suffers. She is an extrovert and desires friendships with her friends and to go out but I havent been out with her or anyone my old friends in years now. Life has lost all its luster. I ignore phone calls of guys that do call or text. I have nothing to offer and nothing to say. I have done nothing with my time. And dont want them to see me like this.

Havent spoke to my parents or sister in almost 10 years. They live 15 minutes away.

Ive been retired nearly two years and am just about 43 years old now. I have only left the house to go grocery shopping and to purchase plants a couple times. I havent done anything. No vacations for nearly 5 years. I am just dead inside. I just dont feel like I can even consider a job that doesnt provide a shred dignity. I hate myself right now and am not motivated to do anything other than buy plants and then walk around my yard and look at them.

I dont want to see anything from the fire dept. So it limits my interactions. I hate attention and if I ran into someone I knew I would cry. I also hate eye contact so it makes even more difficult..... Its just how it is. Ever since seeing a therapist my emotions have surfaced and havent gone away. So I avoid. Its all I can do.

I just feel like Ive lived a lie. I mentally/physically wasnt able to be a firefighter so shouldve never been one. I feel like a fraud. Ive never been good at much but I received rewards as a medic. The funny thing was I always had a fear of blood but when my wife told me she was pregnant at 21 I knew I had to quit college and get a job fast and the fire dept was there. Its like being forced to take a drug and then being forced to quit...I think and INFJ wth ASD should never consider being a ff/medic. I cant believe the shit Ive done and now waste away.

I feel like Ive been hit from so many sides I dont know which way is up any more.

Burnout like that is the sum of all fears for me knowing just how horrendous it can be and generally a large source of my unhappiness with society that never grows tired being perpetual motion people until either old age or disability takes hold.

niar · Jan 19, 2022

I'm autistic and an INTJ. I'm also a woman where autism expresses differently than men. Most people don't know about this about me, and when I tell them I usually get the reply ''you don't look autistic''. Which is really funny because I don't even consider myself highly functional. So I've stopped telling them for the most part. It's not their business and they shouldn't have to be told that someone's different in a specific way to treat people kindly and respectfully anyway.

I've met a few autistic people, and they range from wonderful people to toxic, just like everyone else. Autism doen't make it ok to be bullied and abused, which they very often do, but also it's not ok to treat others like dirt and then call it autism either, and I'd like people to keep both those things in mind when talking about ASD.

I feel like autism is an impossibility. To be able to be trully functional, in whichever way is meaningful to each person, and happy among NTs, it requires a level of patience and emotional maturity that no one has.

Enso · Jan 20, 2022

I don't know if this is just me and I don't know if I'm autistic but I certainly don't understand social cues. I feel like I do the slightest thing wrong socially and people feel like I'm power playing them and react in crazy ways. Like simply not responding how they want me too because of my own issues and they assume I'm tryna do some weird power play when I don't even understand the "power" cues anyways. It's a loose-loose situation.

Ren · Jan 20, 2022

Enso said:
I don't know if this is just me and I don't know if I'm autistic but I certainly don't understand social cues. I feel like I do the slightest thing wrong socially and people feel like I'm power playing them and react in crazy ways. Like simply not responding how they want me too because of my own issues and they assume I'm tryna do some weird power play when I don't even understand the "power" cues anyways. It's a loose-loose situation.

I relate to this. For some reason I've sometimes been suspected of power play when I mostly have no clue what's going on/am completely oblivious to these power dynamics.

I am able to navigate social interactions relatively well, though. It does involve wearing a bit of a mask, but oh well, such is life in society.

LezKitty · Jan 20, 2022

TheFoolishOwl said:
I was wondering how an INFJ autist would function considering that Autism, especially high functionning autism, is often associated with an extreme thinking preference due to a different developmental pattern.

However, my guess would be that while Autists would tend score as thinkers, many of them could actually be feelers and not know it because they would look more like someone in a loop than the usual person of one type.

What do you think ? Does anyone have Autism here to help me understand ? Or just an opinion.

Well good question! I do work with some ASD (autism spectrum disorder) adults, which are not quite INFJ. Well in my opinion at least. They do like people, just not many in one room, specially when its getting loud! One of them only can communicate with supported communication, bit he likes to talk. I think many people believe INFJ could be autistic because many people do not know that there are many different forms of ASD. And to tell if an ASD is INFJ or any other personality, I find quite hard to evaluate to be honest. But I mean does it matter at that point? I mean its about getting to know them and find out who they are and what they are able to cope with and how we can support them to live a most autonomous life.

Matty · Jan 21, 2022

Reading a few replies, I think a distinction needs to be made between a preference and a disability.

A strong judging preference, which is adept at categorising and bringing tasks to closure is different to an inability to comprehend or function in the absence of structure and order.

Autistic people seem to spend a lot of energy categorising and ordering the very basic functions of daily living, like getting food on the plate "right", and processing simple interactions into categories they understand.

That's different to comfortably listening to someone struggling to explain something problematic, then cutting through the ephemera and outlining the most efficient way to reach the desired outcomes.

One is a requirement for order, the other is an ability to create order. Similar distinctions can be made between other preferences and disabilities.

niar · Jan 21, 2022

Sometimes Yeah said:
Reading a few replies, I think a distinction needs to be made between a preference and a disability.

A strong judging preference, which is adept at categorising and bringing tasks to closure is different to an inability to comprehend or function in the absence of structure and order.

Autistic people seem to spend a lot of energy categorising and ordering the very basic functions of daily living, like getting food on the plate "right", and processing simple interactions into categories they understand.

That's different to comfortably listening to someone struggling to explain something problematic, then cutting through the ephemera and outlining the most efficient way to reach the desired outcomes.

One is a requirement for order, the other is an ability to create order. Similar distinctions can be made between other preferences and disabilities.

Neither is de facto a disability, and rather a different modus operandi. Your distinction is not necessarily a divide between NT and ND; it can be a distinction between different NDs.

niar · Jan 21, 2022

Enso said:
I don't know if this is just me and I don't know if I'm autistic but I certainly don't understand social cues. I feel like I do the slightest thing wrong socially and people feel like I'm power playing them and react in crazy ways. Like simply not responding how they want me too because of my own issues and they assume I'm tryna do some weird power play when I don't even understand the "power" cues anyways. It's a loose-loose situation.

Could be that you're awkward but because you're mostly ''neurotypical looking'' in general, people don't know what to think of you and assume it's a trick.

Ren · Jan 21, 2022

niar said:
Could be that you're awkward but because you're mostly ''neurotypical looking'' in general, people don't know what to think of you and assume it's a trick.

niar, would you by any chance have any online resources to suggest re NT and ND?

Especially how to figure out where one fits. I understand that ultimately a diagnosis by a professional is the best route.

niar · Jan 21, 2022

Ren said:
niar, would you by any chance have any online resources to suggest re NT and ND?

Especially how to figure out where one fits. I understand that ultimately a diagnosis by a professional is the best route.

I'll see what I can do. I have this test at hand that's a bit unorthodox but I've seen linked in a highly recommended doctor's website before:

http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php

Ren · Jan 21, 2022

niar said:
I'll see what I can do. I have this test at hand that's a bit unorthodox but I've seen linked in a highly recommended doctor's website before:

http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php

Thanks, I'll take a look

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