What issues do Conservatives find "outrageous"? | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

What issues do Conservatives find "outrageous"?

GracieRuth said:
I don't know why this isn't obvious to everyone, but unless you are being held at gun point and raped, pregnancy is entirely voluntary. We women are not hamsters controlled by our hormones.
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I like sex, therefore, I am going to continue to have it.
I should not have to refrain from having sex because someone else has applied their ideology to my body.
And this is the 21st century, not the 12th. Women are able to decide when and if they will become pregnant.
There is no reason why a woman should not be able to utilize scientific advancements in medicine that allow her to make that decision.
If that is a problem, ask yourself why.
 
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acd said:
I like sex, therefore, I am going to continue to have it.
I should not have to refrain from having sex because someone else has applied their ideology to my body.
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Grow up. You make choices, and are adult enough to understand your choices have consequences. Thinking you have some kind of "right" to have sex without any threat of pregnancy is like the person who thinks they should be able to pizza and donuts and Big Macs without having to worry about weight gain. It's just immaturity and I'm rolling my eyes.

FWIW I'm not even against using birth control. I'm just responding to the (lack of) reasoning of your post.

On a more compassionate note, please be smart. Contraception is far from perfect. I have a friend who had twins she conceived while on the pill. My parents used just about every contraceptive in the books and still had six kids. All contraception does is reduce the odds. It doesn't give you a free ride. Anyhow, best of luck to you.
 
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GracieRuth said:
Grow up. You make choices, and are adult enough to understand your choices have consequences. Thinking you have some kind of "right" to have sex without any threat of pregnancy is like the person who thinks they should be able to pizza and donuts and Big Macs without having to worry about weight gain. It's just immaturity and I'm rolling my eyes.

FWIW I'm not even against using birth control. I'm just responding to the (lack of) reasoning of your post.
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You have missed the point entirely..
 
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I really feel the need to comment on how outrageously ignorant this thread has become. (and when did erectile dysfunction become a genuine insurance accepted medical issue?)
 
acd said:
You have missed the point entirely..
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Well let's see if I got your point. You said:
I like sex, therefore, I am going to continue to have it.
I should not have to refrain from having sex because someone else has applied their ideology to my body.
And this is the 21st century, not the 12th. Women are able to decide when and if they will become pregnant.
There is no reason why a woman should not be able to utilize advancements in medicine and science that allow her to make that decision.
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Now if I were to rephrase that in my own words, you like sex (as do most of us) and you believe that contraception makes it possible for you to enjoy sex without the threat of pregnancy (this is where your error lies). My response to you is that when things seem too good to be true, they are usually not true. It is NOT true that contraception gives you a free ride, only that it reduces the odds.

Now I'm faced with two possibilities. Either you are young and naive, and even if that is true, if I try to educate you, its hard for it not to come across as condescending. The other possibility is that you actually DO know what the method failure rate of various contraceptives are, and are simply in denial. If that is true, my only hope of accomplishing anything beneficial is to thump you hard enough to stir you out of your comfort zone, even though it means I'll come across as kind of a jerk. Either way I have to choose between silence and NOT trying to help you, or making a bad impression and at least making the effort to help. I think I'm old enough that it doesn't matter to me as much as it used to what other people think of me.

BTW, I do remember being 20 years old, and saying something almost identical as your comment to my therapist. When my therapist knocked down my logic, I was VERY angry. But she was still correct. It took 15 years and a lot of stupidity and unecessary suffering before I could finally swallow what she said. I am an incredibly stubborn and arrogant person. I can only hope that you are a better person than me.
 
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GracieRuth said:
I don't know why this isn't obvious to everyone, but unless you are being held at gun point and raped, pregnancy is entirely voluntary. We women are not hamsters controlled by our hormones.
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There's a problem with this statement. You say pregnancy is entirely voluntary, yet you go on to detail how various contraceptives may, and do fail.
 
Peppermint said:
There's a problem with this statement. You say pregnancy is entirely voluntary, yet you go on to detail how various contraceptives may, and do fail.
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I can't believe I have to spell this out. Having sex is voluntary (unless you are being raped) therefore pregnancy is voluntary. This is, I think, the third time I've said this on this thread. There is nothing wrong with my writing skills. Anyone who still doesn't understand what I'm saying is choosing not to understand, and I'm not responsible for that.

We had a joke when I was a kid that the only 100% safe form of contraception was an aspirin--girl, you keep that aspirian between your knees and you will never get pregnant. :D
 
GracieRuth said:
I can't believe I have to spell this out. Having sex is voluntary (unless you are being raped) therefore pregnancy is voluntary. This is, I think, the third time I've said this on this thread. There is nothing wrong with my writing skills. Anyone who still doesn't understand what I'm saying is choosing not to understand, and I'm not responsible for that.
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I disagree with that you're saying, it's not a matter of a misunderstanding. Sex is voluntary, but pregnancy isn't, this is because while pregnancy does follow from sex, it doesn't follow always - the use of contraceptives changes that. It's about probability, you see. If someone has unprotected sex, the chances are high they will get pregnant and your logic applies here well. But if one is using contraception the possibility of not getting pregnant is very high. Use of contraception changes the act of sex and it's implications, it's not the same situation anymore. Sure mistakes happen always, but the exception isn't the rule.

Hopefully you understand what I'm getting at - if one is having protected sex they are not voluntarily choosing the consequences of the act, because by far, the consequences are REMOVED. Also, don't forget that voluntarily implies intent and choice, which is absent here.
 
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Peppermint said:
I disagree with that you're saying, it's not a matter of a misunderstanding. Sex is voluntary, but pregnancy isn't, this is because while pregnancy does follow from sex, it doesn't follow always - the use of contraceptives changes that. It's about probability, you see. If someone has unprotected sex, the chances are high they will get pregnant and your logic applies here well. But if one is using contraception the possibility of not getting pregnant is very high. Use of contraception changes the act of sex and it's implications, it's not the same situation anymore. Sure mistakes happen always, but the exception isn't the rule.

Hopefully you understand what I'm getting at - if one is having protected sex they are not voluntarily choosing the consequences of the act, because by far, the consequences are REMOVED. Also, don't forget that voluntarily implies intent and choice, which is absent here.
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I do understand you, and honestly, I don't want to take this, which is kind of a molehill, and make it seem like a mountain. I just know that when I was young, I had a tendency to rationalize doing things that weren't always in my best interest, and only adopted a more practical lifestyle when the school of hard knocks threw me against a wall more than a few times. There are people out there not as pig-headed as I am who are able to learn from the mistakes of others, and that's what I'm hoping for here.

If you and anyone else can be very honest with yourself here that having sex means you are taking a chance you might get pregnant, even if you use contraception, and you choose knowingly to take that chance, then you are making a mature decision. But if you are deluding yourself that "It won't happen to me," then you are setting yourself up. You could easily end up in the ugly heart wrenching hell hole where you have to decide whether to have an abortion, give your baby up for adoption, or raise your child alone without the benefits of a father.

Not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer. Not everyone who eats junk food becomes diabetic. Not everyone who has sex gets pregnant. That's not the point. The point is that the risk is very real. If I choose to eat a western diet loaded with sugar and high fructose corn syrup and tons of trans fat and stuff, I AM choosing to risk my health, even though not everyone with this diet gets sick. Do you see what I'm saying? Were I to end up diabetic, I would be to blame, since no one put a gun to my head and forced me to eat those donuts.

And it really does NOT follow that just because you like something you are going to continue doing it. I absolutely love sweets -- oh for a glazed donut, a Godiva chocolate, a Numero Uno pizza slice. But I choose not to eat those things because of the consequences. I LOVE sex. I think men are wonderful! But I choose not to have sex unless there is a wedding ring on my finger. So for someone to say, "I like X, therefore I will continue doing X"... B just doesn't always follow A.

And I'm fully aware that there will be people in this world that say, "Okay if I climb that cliff I might fall and die, but the thrill and joy cliff climbing brings me would make it worth even dying." AND I'm also sure that there are plenty of other INFJ's who are like me, and will have to learn from life, not from some random stranger on an internet forum. :D
 
acd said:
Where can you get birth control pills without a prescription? That's news to me!

Birth control pills can be inexpensive, but as of now, you still need a doctor to prescribe them. And not everyone has health insurance that allows them to see a doctor regularly... and currently, conservative republicans have been working on shutting down Planned Parenthood, which provides low income women with exams and prescriptions to affordable birth control. (Mitt Romney said, "Planned Parenthood, we're going to get rid of that." of course then he waffled and said he just would eliminate federal funding to PP... Why??? Maybe because some of them provide abortions.. NEVERMIND the fact that PP does not receive ANY federal funding for abortions.. He would only be denying health care services to millions of women. Or maybe it's because there is a growing trend among conservative repubs in office in which they can't handle the fact that woman are able to make decisions regarding their own body and reproduction.)

The cost of birth control ranges depending on brand and device (patch, IUD)..

And birth control pills are more effective at preventing pregnancy than condoms, anyway.

I wish the pill were over the counter. It would make this all a lot easier for a lot of people... The FDA is considering doing that..


ALSO.. I know a few women who have tried to get a tubal ligation, but were told bu doctors that no one would perform the procedure unless the woman already had at least two children.
So.. that's kind of fucked.
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I wouldn't be against the pill being made over the counter, though they might need to play with it a bit more to make it safer(safer as in better controlling hormonal shifts) along side of that let's keep abortion out of the picture seeing as that devolves incredibly quickly and everybody generally knows where everyone stands.

That being said, I did not know about the tubal litigation, that's ood. Still better and cheaper ways of dealing with the problem.
 
Peppermint said:
I disagree with that you're saying, it's not a matter of a misunderstanding. Sex is voluntary, but pregnancy isn't, this is because while pregnancy does follow from sex, it doesn't follow always - the use of contraceptives changes that. It's about probability, you see. If someone has unprotected sex, the chances are high they will get pregnant and your logic applies here well. But if one is using contraception the possibility of not getting pregnant is very high. Use of contraception changes the act of sex and it's implications, it's not the same situation anymore. Sure mistakes happen always, but the exception isn't the rule.

Hopefully you understand what I'm getting at - if one is having protected sex they are not voluntarily choosing the consequences of the act, because by far, the consequences are REMOVED. Also, don't forget that voluntarily implies intent and choice, which is absent here.
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Distracting from the fact doesn't change it.
 
I had written my opinion, but it got lost before I was able to submit it.

I was going to say that I am all for better women's healthcare, but only up to a point. The reason is that I don't think the reasoning behind more and more healthcare has really been considered as of yet. It's well intentioned and idealistic to want better healthcare for women, but reality doesn't always work out the way we want it to and I don't believe the consequences of such decisions have really been addressed yet. Consider how pharmaceutical companies continually push for more diagnoses of illnesses that are treated with their products rather than actually addressing what might be in the better interests of the patients.

If we begin to argue that pregnancy is a detriment to certain people at risk (i.e. low income families) and we propose 'beneficial' solutions such as government paid contraceptives, at what point does it begin to resemble eugenics? You may think choice is still involved up until a point, but it's a slippery slope that people forget about. All of a sudden government sponsored sterilization programs are instituted for the 'benefit' of 'at risk' populations. What about families who's offspring are 'at risk' for genetic disease? Maybe it is a benefit and maybe it isn't, but I don't think you can clearly say one way or the other.

Again, I am for better healthcare for women, but I think it's important not to overstate one side of the issue without greater consideration.
 
I think that it is perfectly fine to expect a government run health care program to assist patients in mitigating health risk in a way that the patient sees fit. Birth control pills seem like a reasonable means of mitigating the risk of contraception to me. In fact, I am sure that for at least as many women who want to be on birth control, there is one man who wants her on birth control too. Might as well share the cost.
 
uberrogo said:
I think that it is perfectly fine to expect a government run health care program to assist patients in mitigating health risk in a way that the patient sees fit. Birth control pills seem like a reasonable means of mitigating the risk of contraception to me. In fact, I am sure that for at least as many women who want to be on birth control, there is one man who wants her on birth control too. Might as well share the cost.
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I feel like clarifying some more simply because I know this is a hot topic issue and I do not want to convey a mistaken inference from my comments. I would agree with uberrogo's stance as a reasonable expectation to have. In the case of abortion, I am neither for or against. In a perfect world people would accept the consequences of their actions (in cases other than rape for example though that also wouldn't occur in a 'perfect' world), but being that we do not live in such a world I accept that women who choose to have an abortion accept the physical, mental, and emotional consequences of such an action and I do not feel any need to pass any judgement upon their decision.

I am all for women having good affordable healthcare. My position is simply from an argumentative point of view. We should be careful not to conclude that sex is a purely instinctive, involuntary consequence of human behavior because then we get into troublesome issues of controlling that behavior when it shouldn't be. If we disregard people's ability to choose to have sex and the consequences of such choices, we are controlling and eliminating people's ability to choose by restating it as an elimination of risk rather than choice. Sometimes we have to allow some risks and the consequences. We can't promote the ability to choose without also allowing people to accept their own consequences as well. It's a really delicate balance, so I wanted to keep some balance in the argument without appearing that I oppose women's ability to make informed decisions. I hope that that is clear enough so as not to anger anyone.
 
On the previous point of voluntarity...there is alot of confusion. I got confused myself and had to go over it a few times to get some implications straightened out.

Sex is voluntary and pregnancy is voluntary. The use of contraceptives is voluntary. It's reduction of pregnancy is a voluntary choice. There is no applicable use of the word 'involuntary' to be used anywhere in this thread. I think people are misreading some implications in how they are each using the word. There was a misunderstanding at some point in the discussion. I think it had to do with the mixing of 'unwanted pregnancy' versus voluntary pregnancy and also the choices in both sex and pregnancy, i.e. you can choose to have sex and get pregnant or choose to have sex and not get pregnant or choose to not have sex and not get pregnant. You can even choose to not have sex and get pregnant with artificial insemination if you so choose.

Of course the risk of pregnancy is not entirely voluntary (unwanted pregnancy) with contraceptives, but can be depending on what methods are used i.e. tubal ligation. The point being that the level of risk involved IS voluntary and therefore pregnancy is voluntary.
 
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Actually people are largely controlled by their hormones, the part of our brains that makes us more intelligent than other animals is far less in control than all of us would like to believe. Don't believe me? Try not eating for 48 hours while in an area where the smell of food is plentiful.
 
uberrogo said:
Is that a court room procedure?
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I saw the mistake in the typing after I posted, I decided I liked the screw up of the spelling more then the actual spelling. I call it failing upwards.
 
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