Ron Paul...

Lerxst

Lerxst

Well-known member
MBTI
INFJ
I just don't get you. Hasn't history, especially in this country, already proven that people just can't be trusted? How ignorant is it, with these past facts staring at us, to think that a movement towards more traditional American values will ever take hold, even if a Libertarian is in the White House?

We'll still have money, we'll still have classes and we won't have any government control over any of it. We'll have the industries like the Meat Packing Industry Upton Sinclair exposed at the turn of the 20th century, running rampant all over again.

We need a Socialist Revolution in the US, and I mean a true revolution. Some extreme measure that will get us back in line with the direction the rest of the civilized world has been going before we spread our cancerous influence on them. We don't need a bunch of Hippies smoking pot in a grassy field or a bunch of people trying to turn back the hands of time by 100 years.

We need to advance and so far everything I've seen and heard from Ron Paul preaches the exact opposite.
 
I have no faith in Revolution.
 
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CindyLou said:
Why do you trust government so much? This is an honest question.
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Because people legally own and use guns in my state. If it weren't for prison, many of them would probably use them on others! And who creates those laws?
 
Utah has the nation's most permissive gun laws, according to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, but it has one of the lowest murder rates in the country. California, with the strictest laws, has a homicide rate higher than the national average. While I think that there are people in government and in law that have good intentions, what matters is the outcome. IMO the libertarian mindset is the one that most closely considers and acknowledges human nature and tries to work with it, instead of admit it does not exist. I work with elected officials at the state and local level and am consistently doing facepalms, and government positions of power attract a sketchy type of person imo. Lol. Also, my ex narc was a lawyer and in politics; he was in a liberal think tank always trying to find ways to control people for his own interests while appearing to have their best interests at heart before his downfall...so take my opinion with a grain of salt as well. :) I don't trust them. Sorry, it permeates all my thinking right now. Lol. I do think that some of the more extreme Libertarians don't account for the robber barons like you mentioned, but I don't think Ron Paul is one of those libertarians. I'm not sure. I'll have to think about it some more. Sorry for rambling. lol
 
CindyLou said:
Utah has the nation's most permissive gun laws, according to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, but it has one of the lowest murder rates in the country. California, with the strictest laws, has a homicide rate higher than the national average. While I think that there are people in government and in law that have good intentions, what matters is the outcome. IMO the libertarian mindset is the one that most closely considers and acknowledges human nature and tries to work with it, instead of admit it does not exist. I work with elected officials at the state and local level and am consistently doing facepalms, and government positions of power attract a sketchy type of person imo. Lol. Also, my ex narc was a lawyer and in politics; he was in a liberal think tank always trying to find ways to control people for his own interests while appearing to have their best interests at heart before his downfall...so take my opinion with a grain of salt as well. :) I don't trust them. Sorry, it permeates all my thinking right now. Lol. I do think that some of the more extreme Libertarians don't account for the robber barons like you mentioned, but I don't think Ron Paul is one of those libertarians. I'm not sure. I'll have to think about it some more. Sorry for rambling. lol
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I just don't trust anybody in general, especially when money's involved. (period for emphasis). I have family that's done a lot of work abroad in 3rd world countries. There, if you wave a $20 bill in your hand at the airport, they don't even make you wait in the Customs line. People with even the slightest bit of wealth need to hire body guards and hope their bodyguards don't kidnap them (no, seriously, it happened to a friend who would just be considered "middle-class" in the US!). It's total anarchy since even the government officials are in it for themselves (if you pay them more than the criminals, they might consider looking into a problem).

That's the Ron Paul ideology at work right there, mixed with a dose of human nature. On one side you get the "haves" who control people with the idea of money and on the other side, you get the "have not's" who resort to extreme measures to get money.

Remove money as a driving force and suddenly a lot more people are free to better themselves without resorting to violence.
 
[MENTION=2890]Lerxst[/MENTION] I agree with you, but is there a way to remove power and control as a driving force as well? Sorry to spin everything around my narc but it was my first encounter with evil at an age I could comprehend it and apply it to the big picture, and I'm still trying to process it. Lol. I apologize, it's probably annoying. My narc wasn't money hungry, he just wanted MINE, he didn't want to make his own (all the while telling everyone how independent he was lol) I do agree with you, money itself isn't bad, but the love of it is. At the same time anyone in power or in control will abuse it as well. I do agree with you though, Ron Paul himself isn't as vile as some of the libertarians so I tend to cut him some slack. The system that Ayn Rand tried to sell SHOULD give people pause, I could go on that forever. Lol. Well, and she was just wrong. I dont' think Ron Paul is that type of libertarian though, I believe he is an honest and good man, I'm not sure though. I'd have to look into it. Did I say that I agreed with you already? I'm really getting your point, something I hadn't considered or didn't WANT to consider is that lawless business is just as corruptible as the government. Corporations/business is not always bad, I know that for a fact but they do consist of people. Maybe I'm just looking out for myself, I don't like to think that way but I don't like being told what to do when I think I can do it better. Lol.
 
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CindyLou said:
Utah has the nation's most permissive gun laws, according to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, but it has one of the lowest murder rates in the country. California, with the strictest laws, has a homicide rate higher than the national average.
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Correlation is not causation.
 
Ron Paul is hardly a libertarian in the traditional sense of the word. To truly be a libertarian, one must realize that social justice, in all forms, is at the basis of humanity's needs as a whole. You can't be "free" until you have no oppressors.
 
I am not from the USA but I have been following Ron Paul for a while and I like him quite a bit. I hope he gets elected because from what I can observe from the outside, the USA is going down the tubes. Maybe you need something radically different there. Who knows. I think he's the most interesting Candidate that's been out there for a long time and personally I feel like change is going to come whether in the name of Ron Paul or otherwise.

The system the USA has been operating under for the last however many years just is not working anymore. I think at least that is obvious. If you do what you've always done, you get what you've always got. Ron Paul may be a bit extreme for some but at least he is vastly different and the MOST consistent over the last several years. It's something.
 
sandra_b said:
I am not from the USA but I have been following Ron Paul for a while and I like him quite a bit. I hope he gets elected because from what I can observe from the outside, the USA is going down the tubes. Maybe you need something radically different there. Who knows. I think he's the most interesting Candidate that's been out there for a long time and personally I feel like change is going to come whether in the name of Ron Paul or otherwise.

The system the USA has been operating under for the last however many years just is not working anymore. I think at least that is obvious. If you do what you've always done, you get what you've always got. Ron Paul may be a bit extreme for some but at least he is vastly different and the MOST consistent over the last several years. It's something.
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Where did I put that chart again.... hold on a sec...

Even better, I found this one:

usprimaries_2007.png


American Politics have always been in the upper-right. Ron Paul might be less-so, but he's still depending on the system that we've been using since over 200 years ago. Some charts put him down in the lower-right.

Now on this chart, in the upper left would be the Communists likes Stalin or Lenin. In the lower-left would be the likes of Gandhi and the Dalai Lama.

If you want to get to the opposite of what we already have and have had, where would one need to look? I find it interesting that this chart actually lists Dennis Kucinich at all (Democrat - Congressman for Cleveland, ran for President in 2004 & 2008) since he was my actual vote in the last election.

It's a sad state of ignorance that people in the US automatically shout "Socialist" like it's a curse word and stick it up in that upper-left corner with the Communists. Meanwhile, the Socialists in this country are looking up at them from their lower-left corner and wondering what the hell everyone is talking about and pointing to.

Ron Paul isn't the drastic change people think he is. He still relies on "the system" and relies heavily on Capitalism in his agenda. Since the 1900's, the US has shifted from the Libertarian end to the Authoritarian side - fueled in part by the corporations who really like that kind of security (good for business) and the Democrats who created the rules along the way. Ron Paul wants to regress us back to the lower end of that scale but... it's still far-leaning to the right side of the social aspect.

It's different from what we currently have, but not up to par with where the rest of the world is. I'd almost view it as a step backwards, or at best, to the side, but not a step forward.
 
Not to sound like I'm totally bashing him though, he is the lesser of all the evils so far. Don't know if that would really be a compliment however.
 
Lerxst said:
Not to sound like I'm totally bashing him though, he is the lesser of all the evils so far. Don't know if that would really be a compliment however.
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I understand what you're saying. Then again, I'm all for capitalism. Socialism is okay. I am from Canada so I know how it is to live in a country that does the whole free healthcare, etc deal. We're not socialist but people like to think we are. That's fun.

I just think that even if he's not a COMPLETE opposite choice he is, so far, the best choice. I think what I like most about him is his hatred for your Federal Reserve (I think it's a crime that it even exists). I also like that he's a complete constitutionalist and that he's not one of those people who thinks that in order to secure freedom you have to take away freedom.

Here's a handy thing that I read about Socialism today:
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.
Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
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Do you think that's accurate about Socialism or that it's an unfair characterization?
 
The only reason I hope he gets in is that he's so crazy and extreme he'll never get anything passed and he'll veto everything presented.
Maybe that'll at least buy us some time before the whole country collapses from politicians trying to "fix" things. (At least that's what I've been telling myself..)

I do like that he is against the US being the worlds bully.. And that he isn't keen on being Big Brother.
I don't really understand where the Ron Paul "revolution" is coming from though.. To me, everything he stands for harkens back to a time when social darwinism was most popular.
Just doesn't sound like progress to me.

Or Newt can get in there and get to work on making the moon the 51st state. Let him worry about outer space instead of fucking stuff up here even more.
Really American politics are a joke. I don't know anyone that feels confident making a choice in the next election. It's almost embarrassing... These are our best and most qualified??

Our representatives aren't representing us, and it seems like every other week I'm hearing about new legislation proposed that undermines the constitution and whatever is left of our democracy.

I'm hesitant to say that Ron Paul is any different, but honestly, I'd rather have Paul than Obama.. who literally came out in the last State of the Union and asked to be granted more executive power..
Now, Obama wants to increase taxes to help people pay get out of foreclosure..Just more take from the poor to give from the poor. I can't even afford to own a home let alone pay for someone else's ...yet he's got almost 100 million dollars of campaign money that he's mostly sitting on, just waiting for the republicans to run out of funds. How many homes do you think that would save? Ok I'm off topic.
/rant.
 
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acd said:
The only reason I hope he gets in is that he's so crazy and extreme hell never get anything passed and hell veto everything presented. Maybe that'll at least buy us some time before the whole country collapses from politicians trying to "fix" things. I do like that he is against the us being the worlds bully.. And that he isn't keen on being Big Brother.
I don't really understand where the Ron Paul "revolultion" is coming from.. To me, everything he stands for harkens back to a time when social darwinism was most popular.

Or newt can get in there and get to work on making the moon the 51st state. Let him worry about outer space instead of fucking stuff up more here.
Really American politics are a joke. I don't know anyone that feels confident making a choice in the next election.
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Lol I don't know anyone either. I suspect Newt is mentally ill. Just my opinion. I like Paul because he is against the US being a bully, just like you said and he is honest. He won't change if he gets elected. He distrusts government like I do, so right now..idk.

A lot of libertarians don't understand how people work. A lot of sketchy people are attracted to the "greed is good" argument. The John Stossels of the world for example. I don't think Ron is one of those people.
 
Say what you want about about the guy, but he's sure as hell a lot more consistent then any other candidate that's run in the last 12 years. Vote for him and at least you know what your getting yourself into.
 
CindyLou said:
Lol I don't know anyone either. I suspect Newt is mentally ill. Just my opinion. I like Paul because he is against the US being a bully, just like you said and he is honest. He won't change if he gets elected. He distrusts government like I do, so right now..idk.

A lot of libertarians don't understand how people work. A lot of sketchy people are attracted to the "greed is good" argument. The John Stossels of the world for example. I don't think Ron is one of those people.
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I don't trust anyone in government, running for an office of even higher power, who says they don't trust the government.
Obama ran on the same premise.
Perhaps I am way too cynical.
 
acd said:
I don't trust anyone in government, running for an office of even higher power, who says they don't trust the government.
Obama ran on the same premise.
Perhaps I am way too cynical.
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Perhaps, or maybe you're just realistic. I tend to take the half glass full approach with people and it has gotten me into trouble before.
 
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