review: entp first date

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MBTI
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Went on a first date today with this extremely charming and witty older (by four years) girl today. She is a piano teacher and professional classical singer, and we met up for Italian food and coffee after her church gig—she attends church every single week because she has a job in the choir, and also because her parents are conservative as fuck, and in her words she "cosplays as a angel" every Sunday but doesn't like the closed mindset of the Christians in her family and likes to escape once in a while (very sexy thing to say)

We'd been chatting for about a week on The Internet before we met, so I knew generally what her vibe was, but IRL rapport is a different matter, and I was very happy to find us slide into an easy conversational rhythm. She kept making self-deprecating jokes about how she talks too much, but the truth is that she talks about interesting things, and has a good internal barometer of when she starts repeating herself and needs to change topics.

She wore a modest black shirt and long pink skirt (church day)

We talked for like 5 hours (actually a very typically date length here in Korea, my understanding is that Americans tend to go shorter on the first date?) and the subject of MBTI came up (it is a big trend here right now). She tried to guess my type one letter at a time and said ESFJ I think? definitely the first two letters were wrong, anyway, then I told her I was an INFJ and she was like word, we have one letter in common but then the subject changed and I forgot to ask her what her type was

At the end she asked me to "review"/rate how the date went in my eyes (imagine having the balls to ask this. so hot). I told her "thirteen stars" without specifying a denominator because I am a troll af

She said, "Omg, out of hundred? What's my general issue?" I said no, out of ten.

We made plans to meet again on Tuesday

Our subway routes home overlapped, so we rode together for three stations where some creepy old dude kept glaring at us because I am a foreigner who actually knows how to speak Korean and because she has breasts. She changed seats when I got off

We texted and I (remembering certain salacious accounts on the INFJs forums about the excellent sexual chemistry between INFJs and ENTPs, as well as her remark about one letter in common) randomly asked if she was an ENTP and she was like how the fuck did you know

Then I powered up my Arch Linux™-powered laptop from 2012, pressed my super-secret hotkey to open the Firefox web browser, typed infjs.com in the address bar (jk, I just typed the first 1.5 letters and it autocompleted, I'm not an actual cyborg (yet)), clicked forums, clicked Psychology and MBTI, clicked Create Thread
 
ultrauber said:
She wore a modest black shirt and long pink skirt (church day)
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She’s good and plenty. :P

Sounds nice. Very nice indeed. :)

In my experience, in the past, if there was something there, a date would always last for hours. The nature of the engagement simply required that much time. It takes time to listen, and it takes time to share, and sometimes it was like the both of us were discovering a secret world.

Best Wishes,
Ian
 
We had a second date on Tuesday.

Overall, it was a wonderful time. We ate shabu-shabu, talked about her grievances with her family and my hopes for my little brothers as they enter young adulthood. I got to see a little more depth to her this time, and I needed some time to process it. I still like her, but there was a yellow flag that reminded me of an ex who turned out to be a flaming narcissist, and I am trying to decide if the yellow flag is a genuine cause for concern or just an autoimmune response to a superficial similarity that doesn't really mean anything.

From our conversation this time, it was clear that she feels a little insecure about her position in life—she had a lot of expectations foisted on her at a young age that she would be more successful or famous in her music career, and she has watched some of her peers go on flashy adventures in foreign countries that left her feeling ordinary in comparison. But she also is self-aware enough not to beat herself up over it. I think she just needs someone to tell her that she is special just as she is. When I look at her, I see plenty to admire: A young woman running a successful small business, pursuing cool hobbies, making music every weekend. I think that for all the envy and FOMO she conveys, there are others who envy her just the same.

The yellow flag came when we were strolling by the river and she told me a story from her childhood about how she bought a hamster for $3 from an old lady on the street and tried to raise it secretly in her bedroom because her parents didn't like pets. She was 9 at the time, and she kept the hamster in a tiny box the size of her purse with three airholes, feeding it scraps of potatoes and carrots after dinner. It died in a week, and she was devastated, but tried to keep it a secret, but of course her mom notice the smell and her dad had to go bury it with a trowel on his way to work one morning.

In words, she told me that this was a traumatic and formative experience, that she cried about it for weeks and has never really wanted pets since them because the sense of responsibility is too much to handle.

But as she told the story, she kept laughing in a way that could be interpreted as insecurity but could also be interpreted as psychotic delight. It was hard for me to put together the traumatic, dark tone of the story with her casual demeanor. So I asked her, in the gentlest way possible, "That sounds like it must have been a very intense thing for a little girl to go through. I'm confused why you are laughing as you tell it," and she got very embarrassed, saying, "You must think I'm some kind of psycho, I'm so sorry, it's just that I was so young then, I know better now, of course..."

Indeed, maybe I shouldn't have put her on the spot: Sometimes when I have a powerful, negative emotion that is hard to process as simple anger or sadness, it comes out as laughter because I just don't know how else to express it, or perhaps because I am eager to earn the approval or reassurance of the person that I'm talking to. I think this might be what was going on here. I offered that up as a potential explanation, and she appeared to agree, but maybe I put words in her mouth.

But then, this narcissist I dated a while would often brag about her ability to manipulate other people to her will, saying things like, "You are so lucky I am dating you," and laughing as she related stories about victimizing others.

What do you think? Is it a red flag or a yellow flag?
 
ultrauber said:
We had a second date on Tuesday.

Overall, it was a wonderful time. We ate shabu-shabu, talked about her grievances with her family and my hopes for my little brothers as they enter young adulthood. I got to see a little more depth to her this time, and I needed some time to process it. I still like her, but there was a yellow flag that reminded me of an ex who turned out to be a flaming narcissist, and I am trying to decide if the yellow flag is a genuine cause for concern or just an autoimmune response to a superficial similarity that doesn't really mean anything.

From our conversation this time, it was clear that she feels a little insecure about her position in life—she had a lot of expectations foisted on her at a young age that she would be more successful or famous in her music career, and she has watched some of her peers go on flashy adventures in foreign countries that left her feeling ordinary in comparison. But she also is self-aware enough not to beat herself up over it. I think she just needs someone to tell her that she is special just as she is. When I look at her, I see plenty to admire: A young woman running a successful small business, pursuing cool hobbies, making music every weekend. I think that for all the envy and FOMO she conveys, there are others who envy her just the same.

The yellow flag came when we were strolling by the river and she told me a story from her childhood about how she bought a hamster for $3 from an old lady on the street and tried to raise it secretly in her bedroom because her parents didn't like pets. She was 9 at the time, and she kept the hamster in a tiny box the size of her purse with three airholes, feeding it scraps of potatoes and carrots after dinner. It died in a week, and she was devastated, but tried to keep it a secret, but of course her mom notice the smell and her dad had to go bury it with a trowel on his way to work one morning.

In words, she told me that this was a traumatic and formative experience, that she cried about it for weeks and has never really wanted pets since them because the sense of responsibility is too much to handle.

But as she told the story, she kept laughing in a way that could be interpreted as insecurity but could also be interpreted as psychotic delight. It was hard for me to put together the traumatic, dark tone of the story with her casual demeanor. So I asked her, in the gentlest way possible, "That sounds like it must have been a very intense thing for a little girl to go through. I'm confused why you are laughing as you tell it," and she got very embarrassed, saying, "You must think I'm some kind of psycho, I'm so sorry, it's just that I was so young then, I know better now, of course..."

Indeed, maybe I shouldn't have put her on the spot: Sometimes when I have a powerful, negative emotion that is hard to process as simple anger or sadness, it comes out as laughter because I just don't know how else to express it, or perhaps because I am eager to earn the approval or reassurance of the person that I'm talking to. I think this might be what was going on here. I offered that up as a potential explanation, and she appeared to agree, but maybe I put words in her mouth.

But then, this narcissist I dated a while would often brag about her ability to manipulate other people to her will, saying things like, "You are so lucky I am dating you," and laughing as she related stories about victimizing others.

What do you think? Is it a red flag or a yellow flag?
Click to expand...
If you're surprised by people laughing when they recount trauma, wait until you meet a Jewish comedian! We're all about letting laughing about getting stuck in attics. Laughter is a typical and totally normal human reaction to stress. It's called "nervous laughter."
 
regarding the comment from @slant

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Cheers,
Ian
 
@ultrauber – As you suggested, there are many possibilities for why she laughed. It is a sign of psychosis, but it is also a sign of being overwhelmed by emotion (particularly if you don't want to react with a vulnerable emotion like crying). Laughter is a way to deflect deep, vulnerable emotions. Neurodivergent people (including ADHD) may laugh at emotional moments, too, because of the way their brains process emotional moments. Sometimes it is just about being so tired of crying over a tragedy that you have to "bounce back".

She doesn't know you well and telling you this story was a vulnerable moment where she knew you could judge her, but it was also a chance to bond. Laughter could have been her defense mechanism. Telling someone you're only on a second date with about something terrible you did as a child is daring on the vulnerability scale. That said, telling you the story was a way to test how receptive you are to sharing deep emotions and secrets, so she was likely observing your reaction, too.
 
Asa said:
She doesn't know you well and telling you this story was a vulnerable moment where she knew you could judge her, but it was also a chance to bond. Laughter could have been her defense mechanism. Telling someone you're only on a second date with about something terrible you did as a child is daring on the vulnerability scale. That said, telling you the story was a way to test how receptive you are to sharing deep emotions and secrets, so she was likely observing your reaction, too.
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Thank you. This is about what I thought, too, and that's why I tried really hard to be as gentle as possible in asking her about the laughter and make it clear that I wasn't judging her, just trying to understand. We set up a third date, so I don't think I totally blew it. Haha, not yet …
 
slant said:
If you're surprised by people laughing when they recount trauma, wait until you meet a Jewish comedian! We're all about letting laughing about getting stuck in attics. Laughter is a typical and totally normal human reaction to stress. It's called "nervous laughter."
Click to expand...

From the linked Wikipedia article,
In Stanley Milgram's obedience experiment, subjects ("teachers") were told to shock "learners" every time the learners answered a question incorrectly. Although the "learners" were not actually shocked, the subjects believed they were. As they were going through the study, many of the "subjects showed signs of extreme tension and conflict".[4] Milgram observed some subjects laughing nervously when they heard the "learners'" false screams of pain. In A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness, neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran suggests that laughter is used as a defense mechanism used to guard against overwhelming anxiety. Laughter often diminishes the suffering associated with a traumatic event.
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Interesting, and reassuring to know that this is a common stress response.
 
I laugh every time when I talk about my traumas. It's the result of not really knowing how to act when sharing the stories. It's too absurd, too weird, too overwhelming, too painful. Like the mind can't quite grasp it.

"Yeah my mom beat me and then we went to the amusement park."
See how insane that sounds?

So I'll join Slant, Ian and Asa in saying that the laughing by itself is not a red flag.
 
ultrauber said:
I don't know if that is a fake fact or not.
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It's an indicator but not a truism, because it's an open display of a lack of empathy.
Other psychological traumas could result in a child acting out similarly, while not being a socio/psychopath.
But it's such an egregious act, especially if repeated, that socio/psychopathic tendencies would/should be investigated.
 
ultrauber said:
I learned once that a common feature of psychopaths is that as children they relish torturing/hurting animals. I don't know if that is a fake fact or not.
Click to expand...

It is a fact. Psychopaths are also more likely to torture and abuse animals in adulthood. However, abused children (victims of abuse) also often abuse animals as a reaction to being abused themselves. :grimacing:

I've read a lot about this because it is a big topic in animal rights circles.

Edit: It's important to remember (at least in the context of your retelling) that her intention was to keep it as a pet, not harm it. It just went horribly wrong because she was a naive child. A lot of little kids (and adults, actually) harm animals when their intention is to help them.
 
We have been in regular contact, but haven't been able to meet again since the second date. Ironically (?), her elderly dog's health has taken a steep downturn, and she and her family are taking turns staying up all night and monitoring its health, so this has put her free time a bit at a premium. I hope I can see her again soon. In the meantime we are having lovely phone calls. She has a captivating voice, and knows it.
 
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