Real Black? | INFJ Forum

Real Black?

Flavus Aquila

Finding My Place in the Sun
Banned
Mar 14, 2009
10,032
5,724
1,102
Australia
MBTI
INTJ - A
Enneagram
10000
There's something North Americans say as a criticism, which I don't understand: calling some people real blacks, and calling other people white-blacks.

This doesn't seem to have anything to do about the particular tone of skin a person has, but seems to be a character judgement. I never encountered this usage in the few years I spent in the US... well, perhaps a mild form suited to my being Australian, when people would ask if I had ever wrestled a crocodile, and were disappointed I hadn't.

WTF do people mean by calling black people white in a pejorative way? (Or the inverse). From what I understand, this happens to other people, not just black.

Example:
... anyone of some diversity would be nice and a bit more representative of our nation, and Ben Carson is about the whitest black man he could have tapped
https://www.infjs.com/threads/obama...ent-in-living-memory.32968/page-3#post-960917


(It sounds like some commentary on authenticity, but that is usually about personal authenticity to one's views, not to some broad racial stereotypes).
 
Last edited:
It's because white people aren't automatically afraid of that particular black guy, so he is an Uncle Tom.
 
It is a simple case of someone alienating another when the other person doesn't subscribe to the alienator's system which grants him leverage or comfort.

You can bring race into it if that's what you want to do, @Flavus Aquila C:
Race is part of it, but nationality, or any other grouping plays a part as well.

It bugs me that people will say things like, "You're not a real:
* Black
* White
* Australian
* American
* etc."

Perhaps my annoyance is that it is deductive, and not inductive: that some preconceived notion of what qualifies as an essential group trait becomes a measure of authenticity, rather than authentic individuals being what defines the group.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gaze
Race is part of it, but nationality, or any other grouping plays a part as well.

It bugs me that people will say things like, "You're not a real:
* Black
* White
* Australian
* American
* etc."

Perhaps my annoyance is that it is deductive, and not inductive: that some preconceived notion of what qualifies as an essential group trait becomes a measure of authenticity, rather than authentic individuals being what defines the group.
My point is that the issue is more abstract than race.
 
My point is that the issue is more abstract than race.
My implied point is that people inexplicably attach a lot of cultural junk to the most superficial and arbitrary things about a person.

What is the abstract issue you see in people being held to an artificial construct, as a measure of their authenticity?
 
My implied point is that people inexplicably attach a lot of cultural junk to the most superficial and arbitrary things about a person.

What is the abstract issue you see in people being held to an artificial construct, as a measure of their authenticity?
authenticity is abstracted as well because it doesn't matter why one is alienated. You can make anything up. I guess as long as it makes someone feel guilty for not being someone who benefits you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gaze and CindyLou
authenticity is abstracted as well because it doesn't matter why one is alienated. You can make anything up. I guess as long as it makes someone feel guilty for not being someone who benefits you.
Do you mean that people calling black people "not really black", may be about trying to eliminate contradictions to the suppositions underlying some agenda?... that non-stereotypical individuals are a political inconvenience?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gaze
Do you mean that people calling black people "not really black", may be about trying to eliminate contradictions to the suppositions underlying some agenda?... that non-stereotypical individuals are a political inconvenience?
This is way too many words to possibly get out of what I said. If I'm saying anything, it is that one group alienates another if they are oppositional or not beneficial.
 
This is way too many words to possibly get out of what I said. If I'm saying anything, it is that one group alienates another if they are oppositional or not beneficial.
Or at a more fundamental level, one group will prevent others from becoming a group. (By making them pariahs).
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc
It's another way of creating in groups and out groups, who is cool and who is not. Someone is not cool if they are not reflecting perceived essential qualities that make someone fit in with the group or culture they are accusing them of not being faithful to. It's almost seen as a kind of disloyalty or betrayal of the race. It makes people affirmed in the idea that there is some essence or core of a person which identifies them as the label they are supposed to be and if they don't follow the script or behavior patterns stereotypically associated with that group, then they are not "black enough."

In our world, we like labels and categories, and definitions. They make us feel we know who or what it is we are dealing with. It makes us uncomfortable when people don't fit into neat categories, so we describe them as being opposite as @ruji mentioned, or as negative examples of what it is when someone is not being what they "should" be. It's also tied to a false sense of what it means to be "real". We have these forced ideas about what makes someone real.

For example, I've been told I've lost my culture or that I'm hiding it because my accent is not longer as strong. So, I'm no longer a real . . . . because I'm not obviously and visibly reflecting the behavior of someone who is authentically living in that place anymore. The assumption is I'm not longer as real, because I'm not speaking the dialect everyday and not singing the songs or participating in the culture regularly, despite still feeling every bit of my home culture in me, as a person, memory, experiences, consciousness. Now I'm seen as less of this culture, even if I don't feel this way. But honestly, I am likely more American than my home culture at this point in terms of behavior, but I think of myself as a mix of both cultures. Why do I have to choose? Labels. We don't give people the right to choose. We make them choose a side, and then scold them for not choosing the "right" side.

I've also been told I'm not as loud as I was expected to be. Naively, I thought this was a compliment at one point, not realizing how insulting it was to believe this. This comment implied some belief that speaking loudly was some indication that a particular group didn't know how to speak appropriately and quietly, indicating they were less sophisticated as communicators, and didn't know better (which supposedly meant less educated). Speaking evenly and with a moderate tone was considered a sign of status and "good breeding" :D in previous centuries. At some point, it was determined that speaking quietly, and calmly is associated with decorum, composure (aristocracy), and superior upbringing. That's what proper ladies and gents do. So, clearly, those who spoke loudly didn't have the right breeding, and didn't know better.

As ridiculous as these ideas sound today, these are the assumptions which guided much of our thinking for a long time. Ironically, speaking loudly was also associated with speaking out of term, essentially challenging the authority, and questioning the status quo. No one likes anyone challenges the status quo. This is why the Uncle Tom persona was seen as good and bad. He was submissive, which was seen as supporting the justification of slavery. If the slave would just behave and act properly (similar to the way the master's behaved or the way the master's expected them to be behave), then they would have it easier, be rewarded, treated better, able to be redeemed from the inherent evil of being black, etc.

The Uncle Tom was considered a huge problem of course because it supported the view of the slave as someone who could be redeemed of their "black" nature by doing things to please the masters, adopting traits of their masters, showing they were capable of good and right qualities. It meant they could overcome the inherent "badness" that came with being black if they were to behave the right way. Being accommodating and submissive was perceived as catering to the belief that being black was inherently wrong, but could be redeemed with good behavior.

On the other hand, any slave or freeman working with the masters would be seen as compromising if they behaved as they did. They were seen as race traitors, unfairly so. Many went along to get along, and that was seen as betrayal, although it may have saved many their lives.

The tendency for a long time was to support stereotypes of blacks as mostly loud, boisterous, reactive, and angry. This mean that they were being abnormal or Uncle Tom-like if they are calm, relaxed, thoughtful, and even tempered. Clearly, that's not being a "real" black. *rolls eyes* So, there you have it. The history of the perception of blackness in a nutshell.

Stating that someone is not _____ enough is also part of the idea that people should reflect their race, a social construct, in how they think and behave. It's like a social contract. There is an assumption of an unwritten code book out which supposedly says everyone who belongs to a particular race believes that, "We all agree to think, feel, behave, and act in a manner commonly associated with being ____".

We have this idea that people should be defined almost entirely by their race, ethnicity, or nationality (and gender). These things are seen as key features of who someone is and the main way people come to learn about and understand each other. Without these categories, we feel lost, and are not sure how to interact, so it's easier to have these specific things we can identify as a set of traits to make us feel affirmed in our belief that people have a core self that can't be changed, though these traits are purely arbitrary, made up social categories and descriptions.
 
Last edited:
@ gale Awesome post.

What do you think is the motivation (or perhaps unconscious limiting factor), which balks at seeing each individual as they are?

...Why is the overlay of labels so high up on the list of priorities in some instances?...
 
  • Like
Reactions: sassafras and Gaze
you might want to read this:

http://www.theroot.com/please-stop-your-whiny-diatribes-academic-achievement-1791932540

http://www.vox.com/identities/2017/...ids-academics-school-achievement-gap-debunked

But overall I think there should be a difference between 'not a real black' as in, having academic achievements or passions in academics, not liking R&B or Hip-hop
and 'not a real black' as in internalizing white supremacy and supporting the subjugation of black people as a whole.
The same goes to other groups.

But this is not the ideal reality; and we as a society do have our arbitrary standards of worthiness. ("You're not a real American if you don't want Muslims to go away from America!")
 
you might want to read this:

http://www.theroot.com/please-stop-your-whiny-diatribes-academic-achievement-1791932540

http://www.vox.com/identities/2017/...ids-academics-school-achievement-gap-debunked

But overall I think there should be a difference between 'not a real black' as in, having academic achievements or passions in academics, not liking R&B or Hip-hop
and 'not a real black' as in internalizing white supremacy and supporting the subjugation of black people as a whole.
The same goes to other groups.

But this is not the ideal reality; and we as a society do have our arbitrary standards of worthiness. ("You're not a real American if you don't want Muslims to go away from America!")
This isn't a proper reply I'm making, but I find something interesting as an offshoot from your post.

If a black person easily integrates, is well received, and successful in stereotypically white culture (eg: being part of the Wall Street crowd), does he/she undermine, or mythologise the notion of racial division, white oppression, and disadvantage? Is calling someone "uncle Tom", or "the whitest black guy", a ridiculing of someone who contradicts fundamental notions/excuses which are held/used?
 
This isn't a proper reply I'm making, but I find something interesting as an offshoot from your post.

If a black person easily integrates, is well received, and successful in stereotypically white culture (eg: being part of the Wall Street crowd), does he/she undermine, or mythologise the notion of racial division, white oppression, and disadvantage?

Individually? Good for the person.
Socially? It depends.

From whose perspective?
From the side of the majority culture; it's highly easy to pat themselves on the back and say "WE BEAT RACISM", while ignoring those who doesn't fit their standard. That is pure tokenism + respectability politics...so I guess that is mythologizing. ("Racism is over! Sexism is over!")

From the side of the minority culture; it's also easy to call the individual traitors to their group, but discrimination and oppression works systematically. So I won't say it does anything to the greater picture. Discrimination and oppression does not crumble just because one of its legs are toppled. Especially if the individual does not challenge the greater system, the assumption.

What happens after or during the process? If the individual in question does something to change the landscape. Whether by bringing more minorities to the area, or changing the standard, then it can be said that the individual is undermining the notion-- by changing the landscape. If nothing happened, it's simply respectability politics at work. It's someone adapting to its environment.

Arguably that strengthens the notion of white oppression. Because that shows that only certain traits / code of behavior / values are prized. Worse if the individual rise to the top by undermining others of their group ("I'm not like other girls! I don't gossip and bitch and whine and play dressup! I'm totally like, not vapid and shallow like them other bitches!")

Is calling someone "uncle Tom", or "the whitest black guy", a ridiculing of someone who contradicts fundamental notions/excuses which are held/used?

Sorry, can you explain what you mean ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: t5juyt
Individually? Good for the person.
Socially? It depends.

From whose perspective?
From the side of the majority culture; it's highly easy to pat themselves on the back and say "WE BEAT RACISM", while ignoring those who doesn't fit their standard. That is pure tokenism + respectability politics...so I guess that is mythologizing. ("Racism is over! Sexism is over!")

From the side of the minority culture; it's also easy to call the individual traitors to their group, but discrimination and oppression works systematically. So I won't say it does anything to the greater picture. Discrimination and oppression does not crumble just because one of its legs are toppled. Especially if the individual does not challenge the greater system, the assumption.

What happens after or during the process? If the individual in question does something to change the landscape. Whether by bringing more minorities to the area, or changing the standard, then it can be said that the individual is undermining the notion-- by changing the landscape. If nothing happened, it's simply respectability politics at work. It's someone adapting to its environment.

Arguably that strengthens the notion of white oppression. Because that shows that only certain traits / code of behavior / values are prized. Worse if the individual rise to the top by undermining others of their group ("I'm not like other girls! I don't gossip and bitch and whine and play dressup! I'm totally like, not vapid and shallow like them other bitches!")



Sorry, can you explain what you mean ?
Refer to the thread title and OP.
 
What do you mean by "contradicts fundamental notions/excuses which are held/used?" and what are these notions / excuses are you talking about?
 
What do you mean by "contradicts fundamental notions/excuses which are held/used?" and what are these notions / excuses are you talking about?
If people believe that there is an active suppression of success against members of a community, a member of that community succeeding without hastles (across years of study and work) would contradict the belief that there is an active campaign against that community.

Is it possible that people would rather believe that there is a conspiracy against their community, to the point that they arbitrarily exile any member of their community who defies the false beliefs and succeeds? (Ie: if people wish to believe that their community is oppressed, anyone who succeeds cannot be accepted as part of that community, so that belief in oppression can survive).
 
If people believe that there is an active suppression of success against members of a community, a member of that community succeeding without hastles (across years of study and work) would contradict the belief that there is an active campaign against that community.

Is it possible that people would rather believe that there is a conspiracy against their community, to the point that they arbitrarily exile any member of their community who defies the false beliefs and succeeds? (Ie: if people wish to believe that their community is oppressed, anyone who succeeds cannot be accepted as part of that community, so that belief in oppression can survive).
In that case, I doubt it's a binary between active suppression vs smooth sailing progress to success.
What you said is possible but that's going to happen between individuals and not communities.

Because America has a black president, and look what still happened during Obama's presidency. :|

There are also lots of other alternatives that can happen:
One can be actively impended and still succeeded (That, in fact, seems to be what happened with minorities in America in many ways).
One can succeed while bearing the cross of god knows how many discrimination (again, Ex-President Obama)
One can get into the fast lane due to other sort of privileges. (Money is the easiest one. But there are also title, power, gender)

Success in itself doesn't nullify the suppression and systemic injustice.

In fact I also question another thing; why is it that only active suppression matters? There are also subtler ways of suppression. Just because they are hard to point out, does not mean they cannot harm or deter someone.