Pull this apart for me?

[jn56uytrx]

I feel we cannot truly appreciate the light without diving into the darkness.

I agree

In the darkness, I began learning
In the light, I began to see
The learning will always be part of me

If you were willing, I would like to learn more about your experience of the darkness.

 

[Ginny]

I realized they disliked him because the light he sent out was perceived to be not his genuine light, not that honest warmth of who we are, but a harsh defensive light that was not flattering to him and, in this case, caused those around him discomfort and injury, leading them to avoid him.

It is the sad side of lightbulbs, the ones that keep their flames protected by shielding it with an amplifier. The saddest I still find is the lightbulb that exploits the use of the amplifier, because they don't even know what they are doing. The protective lightbulbs can be taught/reached, because they have a small mental barrier that is see-through. I am optimistic about them. Not so much with the abusers. It feels like they don't want to be helped for their ignorance, you know? How can you help/teach those who don't want to be helped/learn, those who stifle growth for the use of a lightbulb?

 

[jn56uytrx]

Reading through the content of this thread, you seem to be using lots of Ni @tovlo. Assuming 'I' from how you describe yourself that gives INxJ. How would you feel about INTJ in contrast to INFJ?

I don't know. I don't think TeFi is a match for me vs FeTi, but the suggestion is intriguing enough that as I have time, I may go explore that in more depth. I will report back here any thoughts on this possibility.

This link is to a post I made a week after joining the forum in the Spring.


tbh I felt a bit like I'd walked into a party where everyone knew each other, but I knew no-one, and I didn't speak their language very well. I felt like I was intruding all the time if I joined in threads that were well under way, with coversations running between people who seemed to be old friends. Being nosy, though, I explored quite a bit for a while and only made a few posts to start off with - and found most people very friendly and supportive. I concentrated on a smallish number of threads where I felt comfortable and soon felt at home. I will confess though that to some extent I do the same in the Forum as I do in any social setting irl - I gravitate to a fairly small set of people I already know and tend to stick to them. It's always taken me ages to get to know new folk to the point where I am comfortable and I find it very stressful. It's a lot easier here because you can dip in and come back to it later in a way you can't at a social gathering - we can get to know folk to some extent from their posts as well before we actually contact them. But I think we still behave like typical introverts in this regard, even though INFJs are also fascinated by other people at the same time.

It's worth pointing out that there is a steady stream of new people joining and becoming active, while some of the existing members either disappear or go quieter for a while. That means that the character of the Forum does tend to change over time, even in the relatively short time since I joined - for example 8 months ago there was a lot of Ne in the threads from some very active INTP members, but there is less of this now.

Thank you for sharing that story and for your thoughts. Your experience reminds me I have been here before, and every time, I try to find some redefinition of self that will guide me to my true group where I will "fit" (the ugly duckling finding her family of swans-e.g. am I really Si and that's why I feel weird or do the wrong things?). Instead, I need to lean into the truth that my experience resonates very much here and will never be the same as anyone else, so I have to do the hard work of getting to know people and (much harder) letting them get to know me, which comes with the risk, and frankly reality, that they won't like what they see sometimes.

I tend to believe my little flame is so fragile it must be protected, but it is actually the breath of challenge to it's life that fans it and makes it stronger. And that only comes from allowing myself to stand in a room with other people who breath and move around.

Maybe I am in my swan family, maybe I am a duck in the company of swans, but today, it really doesn't matter. Want to go for a swim?

 

[Ginny]

Maybe I am in my swan family, maybe I am a duck in the company of swans, but today, it really doesn't matter. Want to go for a swim?

Spoiler: Who knows, maybe we're all just ducks

Spoiler: or maybe we're even geese

I looked for swans but that came up and it's too funny not to post

 

[jn56uytrx]

Spoiler: Who knows, maybe we're all just ducks

Spoiler: or maybe we're even geese

I looked for swans but that came up and it's too funny not to post

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Hey tovlo, I am also embarked upon my own 'OK now what is my actual bloody type?' journey and I'm currently trying on INTJ to test the fit.

So I'd just like to add from my perspective that being 'T' does in no way imply a reduced capacity (or even a reduced tendency) for emotional feeling, it's just a case of proficiency.

This means that an INTJ, for example, will still feel powerful emotions, just that they might be less proficient at distinguishing them than other types with feeling functions higher in their stack.

Comparing Fi with INFP, for example, the INTJ will still feel to the same depth, but it might have a more 'raw' and primitive character than those of the more sophisticated INFP.

This even extends to Fe - they might feel very deeply for the wellbeing of others, but figuring out how the others around them will have the character of bluntness when compared with an INFJ or ESFJ of similar development. That is, it might be so blunt as to be deceptive.

So yeah, with this in mind, have you investigated any T types (with regard to what @John K said, too)?

 

[just me]

If you were willing, I would like to learn more about your experience of the darkness.

I would have to become extremely vulnerable. I cannot send you PMs, as it shows an error. I could never on the www for all to see, unless God asked me to do so. It would bring me sorrow and the shame you mentioned.

Later in life, it was not so bad as early on. We learn to accept events, remember them in moments, and carry them forever. Some we may never reveal. I must sleep on this. It feels like an honor you would even care to know.

Now that I have read your answer to Ginny, after writing this above, I know you understand.

 

[just me]

We try to run away from the most common of spirits as we grow from the warmth surrounding us. Finding where we feel we should be can become almost deafening, while listening to the calling for us to draw even closer and enjoy the warmth. This can cause doubts of who we really are. Is what we feel actually our own light and our own warmth? Is it the light and warmth of other(s)? I think it almost sad how we find what we seek sometimes so many years later, after we have made so many decisions.
I question the worth of climbing our mountains, if we must crush that we have stepped on to get where we are. Can we ever fully glow in the light? Should we learn to glow as we can wherever we are? Sometimes I feel the pinnacles are snow-covered for a reason.

 

[just me]

All ducks?

This is about the Sissy Duckling. It may not need to be here, so I hesitate its placement. Please tell me to remove it if it is too much for here.

 

[Ginny]

We try to run away from the most common of spirits as we grow from the warmth surrounding us. Finding where we feel we should be can become almost deafening, while listening to the calling for us to draw even closer and enjoy the warmth. This can cause doubts of who we really are. Is what we feel actually our own light and our own warmth? Is it the light and warmth of other(s)? I think it almost sad how we find what we seek sometimes so many years later, after we have made so many decisions.
I question the worth of climbing our mountains, if we must crush that we have stepped on to get where we are. Can we ever fully glow in the light? Should we learn to glow as we can wherever we are? Sometimes I feel the pinnacles are snow-covered for a reason.

Is the flame not a part of who you are? And when joining another, isn't it empowered? Even if you should become doubtful, there is nothing that speaks against taking time to revisit the darkness for a while to see for yourself.
It is not disrespectful towards your past to change direction. The only mistake you could make is to stay put out of fear. I'm not saying you should cross oceans for something you're not sure about, either. Just make sure it is the right path for you.

 

[jn56uytrx]

So yeah, with this in mind, have you investigated any T types (with regard to what @John K said, too)?

I am in holiday world here, but actually did a little Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi research this morning. It was not as clear as I expected. I still think I landed with Fe/Ti, but I need more reflection to sort out the underlying thoughts on why. I will rejoin with some of those thoughts in a few days...

Thanks for sharing a bit of your reflection. This is a question I haven't researched much. Te/Fi is in the INFP picture I have researched, but in a different way, so it's nice to have your perspective.

 

[jn56uytrx]

I would have to become extremely vulnerable. I cannot send you PMs, as it shows an error. I could never on the www for all to see, unless God asked me to do so. It would bring me sorrow and the shame you mentioned.

Later in life, it was not so bad as early on. We learn to accept events, remember them in moments, and carry them forever. Some we may never reveal. I must sleep on this. It feels like an honor you would even care to know.

Now that I have read your answer to Ginny, after writing this above, I know you understand.

I do care very much, but also do not want you to experience discomfort in the sharing. I am glad that it already feels there has been some understanding even without the details. Sometimes the details are not the critical part of communication.

 

[just me]

Had to look for this to quote it properly: I will share it, and will not hide it or try to understand why it has come to me.

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Had to look for this to quote it properly: I will share it, and will not hide it or try to understand why it has come to me.

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

That's powerful. I love prose poetry and very elemental metaphors.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

However, that kind of forum activity is not really indicative of INFJs in general, but rather of members who have been here a while and don't necessarily have the time or energy to go deep all the time. In actuality, the lightness and playfulness tends to be done with the understanding that the members are 'deep thinkers', because they've tended to do it elsewhere

Expertly articulated, good sir.
Here is this...
Ɛ≡≡≡≡≡≡D

 

[Zola]

I enjoy a brief engagement with a clever and humorous thought, but large amounts of energy to engaging in back-and-forth banter rarely feels rewarding for its own sake to me.

This is primarily your I function. It's an energy level thing. Introvert = less energy for social banter.

Even when I can pull off a supported argument, I doubt I come off as an expert... one of the places in life I feel the greatest joy, when someone will play with me. That's how it feels to me when that type of conversation is happening--play.

Think about those conversations. When a disagreement occurred, did you pull back and reflect upon your viewpoint to achieve a harmonious middle ground (Fe)? Or did you get energized to push forward and persuade the other person to agree with you (Fi)? Did you consider that facts can be used to support different conclusions (Ti)? Or did you present facts as proven evidence (Te)?

I am good at reading people... I look for clues in body language and words, and other things I don't even think I would know how to name.

This is using Ni and Fe skills to read people. The question is, are you observing people's emotions or absorbing people's emotions? Here's an example: INTJs aren't bothered by an argument if they see it as "necessary" to prove a fact. INFJs will consider the "fact" as negotiable if it risks the relationship.

Now, I will digress a bit here. For a long time, I thought I was INTJ. I believe I did this as a defense mechanism because I am also a highly sensitive person. It was painful to realize how much negativity and bullshit people engage in. I wanted no part of it. However, isolation made me lonely. I asked myself which approach made me happier: Be authentic and seek authenticity? Or be accepting and seek acceptance?

...colleagues will answer in vague and basic ways that feel insulting to me... "was there something in the way I asked my question that led you to believe I didn't already know this?"

That's Fi getting its undies in a bunch. Fi can be egocentric at times. I don't like it much. If I take things personally, I get bent out of shape. It's unhealthy for me to go that route.

At times when people have been willing to play with me (in mapping the world), they drop out quickly and say, "that is a little too deep for me." It's disappointing, but I appreciate the honesty...I don't know the deeper answer either...

Why do the other people drop out of the discussion? Is it philosophical without provable answers? That qualifies as Ti, which is subjective handling of facts, putting them together internally to understand how it works. However, you give hints of using Te because you value bluntness and honesty, and say you don't know the answer. If you confuse Ti with Te in a discussion with other people, they are apt to become frustrated and walk away because Te demands external validation.

I do like structure... order and cleanliness ...schedule my time well and I get paperwork done accurately and on time. I like knowing what the expectations are in a situation. I like building frameworks ...guiding principles.

That would be J function, closure.

Have you considered INTJ?

 

[jn56uytrx]

This is primarily your I function. It's an energy level thing. Introvert = less energy for social banter.

I agree.

Think about those conversations. When a disagreement occurred, did you pull back and reflect upon your viewpoint to achieve a harmonious middle ground (Fe)? Or did you get energized to push forward and persuade the other person to agree with you (Fi)? Did you consider that facts can be used to support different conclusions (Ti)? Or did you present facts as proven evidence (Te)?

I wanted the other person to agree with me, but almost always, I withdraw and question my own perspective. TiTe, I don't know! I feel really confused. I don't even think I really consider "facts" all that much. I think about personal experience. I think about what frameworks of belief or thinking structures the other person might operate within and try to arrange my thoughts in that framework to communicate more clearly in the context of that conversation. I don't know if I really believe in "facts" other than sensory experience/perception that feels real to the person experiencing it, and things the two people engaging with each other both agree to. Is that Ti?

question is, are you observing people's emotions or absorbing people's emotions? Here's an example: INTJs aren't bothered by an argument if they see it as "necessary" to prove a fact. INFJs will consider the "fact" as negotiable if it risks the relationship.

I think the latter? See above? Not sure about observing vs absorbing. I do find emotional boundaries challenging; I intuitively want to match, but that is often draining, stressful, and unhealthy. I have gotten better at setting boundaries and I have wondered if some of that acquired skill is confusing things.

It was painful to realize how much negativity and bullshit people engage in. I wanted no part of it. However, isolation made me lonely. I asked myself which approach made me happier: Be authentic and seek authenticity? Or be accepting and seek acceptance?

My history has been be accepting and seek acceptance. I have been learning to stay grounded in my authentic experience even when everything around me is different and my experience may even be judged. I am still very much a work in progress there, as evidenced by this thread that essentially screams, "Define me." So, while I do value being authentic and seeking authenticity, I think I value more being accepted and accepting others.

That's Fi getting its undies in a bunch. Fi can be egocentric at times. I don't like it much. If I take things personally, I get bent out of shape. It's unhealthy for me to go that route.

Maybe, but I'm not sure. It was definitely egocentric in the sense that I wanted respect and I didn't experience the responses as displaying respect for my knowledge. However, I was genuinely asking for information in that example. It wasn't a snarky bite, though I did feel hurt. I was feeling genuinely baffled at why people were responding the way they were and since I knew I had the knowledge they were telling me, I was trying to figure out if there was something in the way I was communicating that was contributing to the way they were answering. That was a seriously uncharacteristic moment for me even asking that because I never would have asked that 20 years ago. I would've just withdrawn instead. I think of Fi as values being crossed, and maybe in that I was hurt at what I perceived to be them underestimating my knowledge, but that 1) seems an immature use of Fi, and 2) more about ego than values? Unsure about this one.

Why do the other people drop out of the discussion? Is it philosophical without provable answers? That qualifies as Ti, which is subjective handling of facts, putting them together internally to understand how it works. However, you give hints of using Te because you value bluntness and honesty, and say you don't know the answer. If you confuse Ti with Te in a discussion with other people, they are apt to become frustrated and walk away because Te demands external validation.

Actually, both people I was thinking about dropping out of a discussion were either reported or suspected INTJ. Interesting. I related to the Ti description above. In the situation I was thinking about, it was exploring a recent study on link between intelligence and altruism. I was extrapolating a bit and sharing some thoughts, that I thought held together, but there was absolutely nothing concrete or factual about the ideas I was playing with.

Have you considered INTJ?

I am trying. I have been reading about Te/Fi. I genuinely don't think I really get Te. I don't think it's my auxiliary function. If I think about, as an introvert, how I relate to the external world, I think Ne, Fe, and even Se make way more sense than Te. There are aspects of it, though, that I relate to, but I am thinking they may be learned skills.

I will write more later maybe. Curious if you have any further thoughts based on this feedback?

 

[Ginny]

I wanted the other person to agree with me, but almost always, I withdraw and question my own perspective. TiTe, I don't know! I feel really confused. I don't even think I really consider "facts" all that much. I think about personal experience. I think about what frameworks of belief or thinking structures the other person might operate within and try to arrange my thoughts in that framework to communicate more clearly in the context of that conversation. I don't know if I really believe in "facts" other than sensory experience/perception that feels real to the person experiencing it, and things the two people engaging with each other both agree to. Is that Ti?

Not sure about observing vs absorbing. I do find emotional boundaries challenging; I intuitively want to match, but that is often draining, stressful, and unhealthy. I have gotten better at setting boundaries and I have wondered if some of that acquired skill is confusing things.

I think in some cases (which may also be in part unquoted) of what you wrote, what is difficult about the functions to say is at which point your behaviour speaks of the functions directly, or if it is the enneagram taking charge. The latter will have you need to stay safe and observe (from a distance), so I believe it may put a stopper on how much Fe you can engage in from an empathic point of view. But Fe isn't only empathy, it can be felt by other people of any other type too, if they can/choose to be receptive to it. There is another facet to Fe, which you describe fairly well in the first of the quoted sections.
"Wanting to match" is what I'd call mirroring. It's similar to empathy, but it's an intentionally conjured state (out of sympathy), whereas with empathy you wouldn't have any choice - you would just feel it. Mirroring can therefore be more attributed to Fi than Fe, so if feels unhealthy for you, it is a possible sign for you having it lower in the stack (if not in the shadow). Setting boundaries is important in any case, otherwise it will cause a lot of confusion over which emotion is whose. And that can cause a whole other set of problems in the process.

I have been reading about Te/Fi. I genuinely don't think I really get Te. I don't think it's my auxiliary function. If I think about, as an introvert, how I relate to the external world, I think Ne, Fe, and even Se make way more sense than Te. There are aspects of it, though, that I relate to, but I am thinking they may be learned skills.

I also have problems with understanding Te (other than recognising it for its otherness), being almost completely blind to it unless I'm triggered into using shadow functions. Having somewhat of a difficult memory, I can only reverse engineer what happened afterwards and track it like that, using the descriptions I have read or heard. However, Ni-domination makes it hard to see it for how it was, as it constantly reconceptualises the whole situation whenever I come up with a new angle of perceiving it, due to Fe and Ti. After a while you can't tell if that really was how it transpired but by that time it has become mostly unimportant anyway.

I think of Te as an organising and to some degree optimising function. It is the most black-and-white function, for distinguishing with such ease, and I believe there might originate its being associated with facts. What we cannot and ought not forget is that it always uses Fi to choose/balance, just like Fe always uses Ti to balance (and all the other complentary function pairs), which can muddy the waters when it comes to perceiving their most essential core (see the example above).

 

[Zola]

I agree.

So, introvert.

...almost always, I withdraw and question my own perspective...

Fe in operation, adapting to the mood of the other person.

I think about what frameworks of belief or thinking structures the other person might operate within and try to arrange my thoughts in that framework to communicate

This is Ti, fitting the facts together. The conclusion might vary from one person to another because facts can be used in different ways to support different theories. If it were Te, it would have an external standard, like a rule or a law that means the same thing to everyone.

I think about personal experience more clearly in the context of that conversation.

This is Si referencing experience. You can always identify an Si dominant person because they love history and enjoy traditions. They use the past in order to understand the present or plan for the future.

I don't know if I really believe in "facts" other than sensory experience/perception that feels real to the person experiencing it, and things the two people engaging with each other both agree to. Is that Ti?

That's a mixed bag. Se is concrete, physical sensation in the present time. It's being observant, living in the moment, using your body and senses, enjoying natural instincts. Then you can take that sensory input and filter it through Ni or Ne, using abstract or symbolic meaning to interpret and predict what might happen next. (If you're looking inward, converging to see the big picture, that's Ni. If you're looking outward, diverging to see opportunities, that's Ne.)

Not sure about observing vs absorbing. I do find emotional boundaries challenging; I intuitively want to match, but that is often draining, stressful, and unhealthy. I have gotten better at setting boundaries and I have wondered if some of that acquired skill is confusing things.

If you're stressed or drained by emotions, you're probably Fe/Ti. People with Te/Fi can compartmentalize their own emotions better and ignore other people's emotions better to avoid stress.

My history has been be accepting and seek acceptance. I have been learning to stay grounded in my authentic experience even when everything around me is different and my experience may even be judged.

Okay, definitely Fe/Ti. But please cut yourself a break on authenticity. You're going to have to keep it under wraps in certain company in order to avoid conflict, so don't feel like a sellout if you do so. I'm just saying, expect to compromise, externally. And if you feel like a fraud, internally, lighten up, realize this is a flawed existence, and give yourself big bonus points for being kind to others. And be kind to yourself.

...I was hurt at what I perceived to be them underestimating my knowledge, but that 1) seems an immature use of Fi, and 2) more about ego than values? Unsure about this one..

Yes! You got that right. INFJs can get weighed down by Fi.

Actually, both people I was thinking about dropping out of a discussion were either reported or suspected INTJ. Interesting. I related to the Ti description above. In the situation I was thinking about, it was exploring a recent study on link between intelligence and altruism. I was extrapolating a bit and sharing some thoughts, that I thought held together, but there was absolutely nothing concrete or factual about the ideas I was playing with.

All N types enjoy a good theoretical discussion. INTJs like to check quantifiable facts before proceeding. They might have needed time to process. Next time, send them the abstract of the study and ask them to discuss it with you later.

...Te. There are aspects of it, though, that I relate to, but I am thinking they may be learned skills.

Sure. You can learn Te. You can use the power structure to your advantage. It's a great strategy in our society, which values logic over feeling. Inside, though, you will still say, "Humph. It doesn't make sense to me, but I'll use it to get my way."

 

[Misty]

Reading through the content of this thread, you seem to be using lots of Ni @tovlo. Assuming 'I' from how you describe yourself that gives INxJ. How would you feel about INTJ in contrast to INFJ?

This link is to a post I made a week after joining the forum in the Spring.


tbh I felt a bit like I'd walked into a party where everyone knew each other, but I knew no-one, and I didn't speak their language very well. I felt like I was intruding all the time if I joined in threads that were well under way, with coversations running between people who seemed to be old friends. Being nosy, though, I explored quite a bit for a while and only made a few posts to start off with - and found most people very friendly and supportive. I concentrated on a smallish number of threads where I felt comfortable and soon felt at home. I will confess though that to some extent I do the same in the Forum as I do in any social setting irl - I gravitate to a fairly small set of people I already know and tend to stick to them. It's always taken me ages to get to know new folk to the point where I am comfortable and I find it very stressful. It's a lot easier here because you can dip in and come back to it later in a way you can't at a social gathering - we can get to know folk to some extent from their posts as well before we actually contact them. But I think we still behave like typical introverts in this regard, even though INFJs are also fascinated by other people at the same time.

It's worth pointing out that there is a steady stream of new people joining and becoming active, while some of the existing members either disappear or go quieter for a while. That means that the character of the Forum does tend to change over time, even in the relatively short time since I joined - for example 8 months ago there was a lot of Ne in the threads from some very active INTP members, but there is less of this now.

Yes! Exactly John. I hear INxJ ( INTJ ) or INFJ! Good thinking..