Poll: Gay marriage | Page 19 | INFJ Forum

Poll: Gay marriage

Gay marriage opinions/voting preference

  • I support gay marriage and I would vote for it

    Votes: 63 82.9%
  • I support gay marriage but I would vote against it

    Votes: 1 1.3%
  • I dont support gay marriage but I would still vote for it

    Votes: 4 5.3%
  • Im against gay marriage and I would vote against it

    Votes: 8 10.5%

  • Total voters
    76
Unfortunately - the State really doesn't give much consideration to how children are raised and integrated into the society other than to learn how to be consumers and minimal quality workers. At least that's the current view here in the US.

[shaking head] Whew...I just don't see how what you're proposing can be accomplished with today's world views upon marriage. As I've said before - the word is tied with property/assets. The State is more concerned with that perspective and assets include the number of people residing in any given state. Marriage licenses give them much information about us. Then there's all the myriad rituals built into the self esteems of so many families and communities. It displays Status/Wealth/Power and on and on.

I can see the value in designating a construct - a term - to emphasize Family with children only. Then support can emphasized as well. I'm thinking the only way to accomplish it is to "de-value" the word now - and then reintroduce the word after a generation is dead and gone with your New value - a new definition. Surely you can see it would take people a long time to get used to the idea of it being changed... Also - many religions already emphasize Family synonymously with Marriage.

Another thought I had is the corporate attachment to marriage and all of the wealth they derive from the fantasies people have about what a wedding should be.

What do you do when 2 people get a civil union license with no intention of having children and then there is an accident and one is born? What do you do when 2 people get married and no children are born?

At least with my proposal - almost Everyone has to go through parenting classes. I'd like to think it would open their eyes as to the gravity of bringing children in this world and if they choose to go ahead - it would strengthen their resolve and commitment.

I think what you're really seeking is an unbreakable contract for a certain period of time between the parents when children are brought into their lives - whether biological or adoptive - as a family unit. For example: An 18 yr contract to be committed parents to the children and not leave. Then they can go their separate ways. I've actually proposed that idea in other threads....and I can see that coming one day...

Well... this is really a separate issue from Asarya's initial intent of her thread. I think I'll go check out the website where people can propose their ideas and seek others to sign a petition.

(Re-mix of reply to acd)
I really don't think a lot of either religious, or secular baggage really helps when dealing with a highly distinct and necessary form of relationship: the child-rearing relationship.

Religion exalts marriage with its highest ideal, calling it holy; secularism exalts marriage with its highest ideals: social acceptance, romance, commitment, security, legality, status, recognition, etc. etc. These things are good, but they distract from the basis of the relationship they are trying to benefit: two people committed to each other in the service of conceiving and raising other citizens well. These couples are obliged, both morally and legally, to care for their offspring - so they are really sacrificing quite a lot for the good of society.

Getting way-laid (no pun) on some of the religious, or social trappings of marriage distract from the role it plays in transitioning a society from one generation to the next. Talking about sanctity, acceptance, romance, benefits, recognition, etc. can make it sound like marriage is about these things, so that weddings become more focused on religiosity, bridal extravagance, taxation coupes, etc.

So how do you deal with heterosexual couples commiting themselves to each other in civil unions, who end up having children?
They can can remain as such - with some particular type of benefit going to the principal guardian of the child - or, if they wish, they can then undertake marriage; that is, a commitment (freely undertaken) to cooperate in raising the child. Benefits should be forthcoming because marriage implies personal obligation and great personal cost in terms of time, money and concern. The difference between marriage and civil unions would be the level/extent of commitment intended in child-rearing.

Sterile married couples should still be recognised as such, for having offered their commitment; much like the war veteran who never saw action. Naturally, benefits ordered towards assisting in child rearing would not be forthcoming.

Adoptive parents are a distinct category, as both married and civilly united couples - or even individuals can adopt, with varying degrees of domestic commitment.


In any case, committed couples intending to bear/raise children needs to be treated as a distinct category. Perhaps if the term 'marriage' is further over-extended (it already is in respect of heterosexuals who do not intend to raise children), a new category must be envisioned by the law.

My suggestion would be that the category be somewhat disparaging in its terminology, to avoid the build-up of desirable social baggage which is fueling the current debate: perhaps 'committed breeders', or 'child bearers' - although disparaging terminology would seem unfit, because such people really do play a very important inter generational role in society.
 
Why don't we just call straight marriage marriage, gay marriage marriage, marriage strictly for the purposes of procreation super double special secret marriage, and then bestow upon the parents of successful children the title of super double special secret marriage with honors?
 
Why don't we just call normal marriage marriage, gay marriage marriage, marriage strictly for the purposes of procreation super double special secret marriage, and then bestow upon the parents of successful children the title of super double special secret marriage with honors?
Because being facetious, ironic, or sarcastic is not constructive and doesn't deal with real complexities in relationships.
 
Geez, lighten up.
 
I don't think it's very nice to blame religion for hatred against gays. People who claim to be the same religion can have varied interpretations of the holy book or teachings they follow. Also people vary in their ability to compromise the ideals they adopt from their chosen interpretation of the religion. After those two factors alone, you are left with individuals who vary too much to categorize accurately, even if they claim to be from the exact same religion.

=)

The word dick-tating is pretty funny too it made me laugh... hey.... what do you call someone who is half penis half potato????? Give up????? A dick-tator!!!! LOL I need to stop smoking that shit...

Edit: Here's a fun fact! I just learned from [MENTION=862]Flavus Aquila[/MENTION] that therapist can be spelled "The-rapist".
 
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Right. I have a hidden agenda that in order to complete I have to hide behind the illusion of religion. Im really up to no good and plan on oppressing everyone so that I may become rich and take all your gold. To do this I must make sure that gays never marry! Dont be such a dumb hillbilly.

You seem to be defending a religious position which does serve to oppress. If this isn't your position, then what are you saying. Why are you saying it.
 
The word dick-tating is pretty funny too it made me laugh... hey.... what do you call someone who is half penis half potato????? Give up????? A dick-tator!!!!

Sounds deliciously gay. Count me in.
 
I don't think it's very nice to blame religion for hatred against gays. People who claim to be the same religion can have varied interpretations of the holy book or teachings they follow. Also people vary in their ability to compromise the ideals they adopt from their chosen interpretation of the religion. After those two factors alone, you are left with individuals who vary too much to categorize accurately, even if they claim to be from the exact same religion.

But if you do use the Holy book. The word of god. And you use this to justify hurting or oppressing a people, what do you call it if you don't call it hate?

Just entertain this.
You hear I'm big on what Obama says.
Obama says I should hate you because of the way you live your life.
You don't like Obama and have a hard time understanding why I listen to him.

Maybe you believe in god.
Maybe god doesn't like gays.
I don't believe in your god and have a hard time understanding why you listen to him.

Obama = God

I haven't heard someone come out, maybe I wasn't paying attention, and use religion as to why they are tolerant and understanding. I have heard it used for why they are fixed in their position against gays.
 
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I particularly have no high regard for marriage, may it be hetero or same sex. For me it's just a social obligation. But really, why people make a lot of fuss about getting married when it won't necessarily guarantee them happiness. People can act as "couples" and live in the same roof even without the papers.
 
I particularly have no high regard for marriage, may it be hetero or same sex. For me it's just a social obligation. But really, why people make a lot of fuss about getting married when it won't necessarily guarantee them happiness. People can act as "couples" and live in the same roof even without the papers.

Yup I agree.
Thing is I'm not religious, so being married isn't really a god thing for me.
It's a I took an oath thing. A commitment I guess. For some people that's important. For me it's an order.

I think that oath is your word, who you are, what you say. Your integrity.
I think asking gay people to somehow take a different oath, or a compromise because I'm uncomfortable with you identifying with me is amazingly selfish.

For you, I get it, I think. You don't get the wanting to be married thing, but to a lot of others it's really important.
 
But if you do use the Holy book. The word of god. And you use this to justify hurting or oppressing a people, what do you call it if you don't call it hate?

Just entertain this.
You hear I'm big on what Obama says.
Obama says I should hate you because of the way you live your life.
You don't like Obama and have a hard time understanding why I listen to him.

Maybe you believe in god.
Maybe god doesn't like gays.
I don't believe in your god and have a hard time understanding why you listen to him.

Obama = God

I haven't heard someone come out, maybe I wasn't paying attention, and use religion as to why they are tolerant and understanding. I have heard it used for why they are fixed in their position against gays.

There are lots of religious people who are LGBT. Just pay attention better and you'll notice.

=) <----- you already know...
 
There are lots of religious people who are LGBT. Just pay attention better and you'll notice.

=) <----- you already know...

the majority of gay christians i know or have heard of don't act on their homosexuality because of them beleiving its a sin. Like, they are openly gay, they just remain single.
 
There are lots of religious people who are LGBT. Just pay attention better and you'll notice.

=) <----- you already know...

Well, I'm making an assumption.
If you're LGBT you probably don't need convincing to be sort of compassionate.
Or I'm guessing you wouldn't be someone who used religion to defend against being gay. But then there's what Neverwhere had to say.

To your point Chulo, global assertions are probably never a good idea or correct. So I'll refine what I said earlier and direct it toward those that do use religion to make themselves better than others; in this case LGBT.