Physical appearance as a category of discrimination

[aeon]

I try my best

There is no try. There is only Dookie.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Wyote]

There is no try. There is only Dookie.

Cheers,
Ian

LOL

 

[mintoots]

Because you don’t understand it, or because you judge it as wrong?

Because it doesn't register to me as fair. Not to get me wrong, we are all entitled to our own dislike but not to the point of disrespecting the other for what they are. The discrimination at play here affects individuals for who they are. They are being judged as rather so harshly holistically when the appropriate dimension of the judgement ought to only be on one facet. Say a person fails to earn a job for their height because they can't reach the overhead carriers in a flight cabin, that makes sense but if a person loses a job as a bank teller because they aren't aesthetically pleasing enough---- how does that appropriately correlate? Similarly, do we simply decide that a person isn't worthy of a second look just because we weren't pleased the first time? Don't everyone deserve an iota of the benefit of doubt?

I understand the role of experiences such as yours in the formation of preference, but even if only at the matter of forming some basic respect of the other, I think they deserve that. I personally always judge beautiful and rich people at the outset. I always assume some superficiality about them. I have learned however that in silencing my judgement to a certain extent, I can get to see something different about them that is worth appreciating. This is why I think judgment formation based on physicality is far too limiting.

But the subconscious pull can be strong for the plethora of weak minded in the world.

I understand. I have been a sucker for Keanu Reeves' aesthetic.

 

[John K]

It has always seemed patently obvious to me that physical attractiveness has a huge influence on how you move through the world and what kinds of opportunities you get.

This is true but it’s only slight in my opinion. Personality is much more important. Some very physically attractive people are like lightbulbs that have never been switched on and never will. When I look at other people who I find compellingly beautiful, I find that their up front physical appearance is not outstanding, but my goodness how they glow brightly.

Of course having great physical attractiveness might win you a billionaire partner - you might well win that race. To actually become a success in power and wealth - I don’t think it’s a great advantage. Confidence, intelligence, persistence, resilience, an instinct for leading, maybe a touch of ruthlessness, are much more important if I think about the successful people I’ve met.

 

[Wyote]

I have been a sucker for Keanu Reeves' aesthetic.

Spoiler

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

This is one of the darker aspects of the human experience that can really cripple people emotionally/mentally hands down especially when it comes to the dating market these given how things are so skewed these days.

 

[aeon]

Because it doesn't register to me as fair. Not to get me wrong, we are all entitled to our own dislike but not to the point of disrespecting the other for what they are. The discrimination at play here affects individuals for who they are.

Ah, okay. I realize where I was muddling things was how do I consider physicality when engaging with people in general, versus what do I consider attractive, or not, in terms of a romantisexual partner.

Say a person fails to earn a job for their height because they can't reach the overhead carriers in a flight cabin, that makes sense but if a person loses a job as a bank teller because they aren't aesthetically pleasing enough---- how does that appropriately correlate?

It doesn’t, and capitalism ensures it doesn’t have to. It allows for the dismissal of anyone for any reason, and for an employee to quit at any time, for any reason.

Similarly, do we simply decide that a person isn't worthy of a second look just because we weren't pleased the first time?

In general, yes, this is what human beings do, hence the phrase “You never get a second chance to make a first impression.” (*sad noises from people with social anxiety*)

Don't everyone deserve an iota of the benefit of doubt?

I think that’s a good approach in many situations.

I understand the role of experiences such as yours in the formation of preference, but even if only at the matter of forming some basic respect of the other, I think they deserve that.

Fair enough, and I agree with you.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[aeon]

especially when it comes to the dating market these given how things are so skewed these days.

Especially true if the state of things is considered from the perspective of any of the match dot com companies, who profit from people remaining alone and isolated.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Wyote]

This is true but it’s only slight in my opinion. Personality is much more important.

It is indeed a bit of a misconception that good looks on their own are like a free ticket to easy town.
Just go to California and you can witness all the dying dreams and souls of people you thought would have had it easy their whole life.
It's all relative.

Learning to use what you've got is the most effective thing for anyone despite whatever gifts, skills or shortcomings they have.

It's easier to compare yourself to others and internalize made up anger as an excuse to do nothing than it is for most people to really examine themselves and fix whatever's fixable.

If people don't love you for you, the unique blend of miracle consciousness that you are, there's no sense in fighting against that. They might have a point, but if it's something not fixable then how valid or helpful is it really.

 

[uuu]

Warning: Pedantry incoming. I think you guys are arguing in good faith, but I want to clarify my position (again).

Personality is much more important.
...
Of course having great physical attractiveness might win you a billionaire partner - you might well win that race. To actually become a success in power and wealth - I don’t think it’s a great advantage.

It is indeed a bit of a misconception that good looks on their own are like a free ticket to easy town.

S T R A W M A N F A L L A C Y

My claim isn't as specific as "physical appearance is more important than personality" or "good looks are a free ticket to easy town"! It's simply that

physical attractiveness has a huge influence on how you move through the world and what kinds of opportunities you get.

I feel compelled to emphasize this because this is a very common reaction when I argue that physical attractiveness is a common category of discrimination. People rush to reassure me that "Sure, but looks aren't everything" or "Sure, but not everyone thinks that way" or "Sure, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder"—but all of these are counterarguments to arguments that I didn't make. You can't dismiss my claim just because you can identify a flaw in a more extreme version of it!

 

[Wyote]

Eh wasn't my intent and I do know your position but I'm just too lazy to fully explain.
I know the data behind the reality of things.

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

I don't like loud or obnoxious people, nor do I like obese people.

Sorry mate, we don't do biology in 2022. You will have sex with fat people and you're going to like it, insensitive bastard.

The emotional blackmail that always emerges along with this topic is incredible. First, there was an insistence that sexual orientation is fixed and will never be changed. Now, other preferences are expressions of your bad unconscious bias. Were the gays just deep-seated misogynists this whole time? There's no reason to believe one category of preference can be changed but not the other.

The specifics may vary, but there are universal markers for (female) beauty: symmetry, hip-to-waist ratio, and signals of youth and health.

 

[Asa]

physical attractiveness has a huge influence on how you move through the world and what kinds of opportunities you get.

@uuu –– I agree with you.

Some people find the way I look beautiful and others find me ugly. I've absolutely noticed how that affects the way they treat me, the opportunities I'm offered, and how easy it would be to get my way, receive favors, etc, It's common for people who find me unattractive to treat me disrespectfully – like a lesser being, while those who find me attractive often cross boundaries both verbally and physically. Some people think their word is god on this matter, too, and if they give me a favorable rating I owe them, or they feel self-satisfied if they rate me lower... like their word is the final word and they've subjected me to a lifetime of ugliness. From the age of eleven until I moved to a secluded, rural area, I couldn't leave the house without people interacting with me because of my looks in one way or another. (Everything from genuine interest to harassment, every single day.) No wonder so many of my most beautiful friends try their hardest to disguise or obscure their looks and fade into the background.

In my thirties, I stopped accepting attention, presents, and favors from people trying to be nice to me because they thought I was pretty. I never accepted bigger or more adventurous opportunities, though, because there would be too much of a moral compromise for me. (Nothing is free.) I have many friends who still lack the self-awareness to realize they get their way and get special treatment because of beauty privilege.

I've been placed in some roles at work because I was deemed pretty and missed other opportunities because a manager didn't like my looks. Both are losing situations because it can be difficult to advance to other roles and gain experience and skills when a boss thinks you're perfect in your role or that you are unsuitable for better roles (because pretty = dumb). The way I look earns both reactions, so I've seen the consequences of being both beautiful and ugly all my life.

I don't match the modern beauty trend (BBL, extreme curves, layers of make-up, false eyelashes, lip injections), plus I'm getting older, so I notice I fade into the background more now. This feels like a vacation or retirement from the constant harassment of being judged or objectified. I really just want my work to speak for itself.

In the past, I opened up a little about some of my experiences with how people have behaved toward me at work. I was told by fellow forum members that I was lying, so I won't be doing that again. Just believe me, it's real. People really do bizarre things to fellow humans.

 

[uuu]

@Asa, I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, and especially that this forum didn't believe you when you shared about appearance discrimination. Your story reminds me of something I forgot to mention in the OP, which is that people who are physically attractive also face certain difficulties in society such as catcalling, envy, and undermining behavior—and all of this lends further weight to the point that physical attractiveness is an important dimension of social existence.

You mention that these problems stopped when you moved to a rural area. Was the move motivated by a desire to get away from these kinds of interactions, or was that just a side benefit? Do you think that the boundary crossing and dismissive behavior has become less frequent purely because you interact with fewer people where you now live, or is there also a cultural dimension to i.e. when you do interact in your rural area with people there, the base rate of this prejudice is lower?

 

[Asa]

You mention that these problems stopped when you moved to a rural area. Was the move motivated by a desire to get away from these kinds of interactions, or was that just a side benefit? Do you think that the boundary crossing and dismissive behavior has become less frequent purely because you interact with fewer people where you now live, or is there also a cultural dimension to i.e. when you do interact in your rural area with people there, the base rate of this prejudice is lower?

Thanks uuu.

I want to be clear that I don't have the type of looks that models have and I do have model friends and a cousin who make me look like a potato. I've been treated differently for being both ugly and beautiful. I also have dysmorphia and can't accurately access my looks, so I am only relying on how I'm treated and what people say to me (or behind my back). I've experienced both extremes.

Our desire to move did include a desire to live among fewer people. I think the reason people bother me less is multi-faceted. There are fewer people, the culture is different here (people are more polite and keep to themselves, plus they place more value on farm women), I rarely go out alone anymore, I'm older and finally look like I'm 35+ so people treat me differently. I don't fit the current beauty standards. I don't try to contour, wear false lashes, get filler, or have fancy hair, et, and I haven't augmented anything. I also think more people are more respectful now.

 

[mintoots]

physically attractive also face certain difficulties in society such as catcalling, envy, and undermining behavior—and all of this lends further weight to the point that physical attractiveness is an important dimension of social existence.

On the contrary, I think this negates the point of discussion. Beautiful people experience similar rejections as uggos so what's the topic now?

 

[John K]

Warning: Pedantry incoming. I think you guys are arguing in good faith, but I want to clarify my position (again).



S T R A W M A N F A L L A C Y

My claim isn't as specific as "physical appearance is more important than personality" or "good looks are a free ticket to easy town"! It's simply that

I feel compelled to emphasize this because this is a very common reaction when I argue that physical attractiveness is a common category of discrimination. People rush to reassure me that "Sure, but looks aren't everything" or "Sure, but not everyone thinks that way" or "Sure, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder"—but all of these are counterarguments to arguments that I didn't make. You can't dismiss my claim just because you can identify a flaw in a more extreme version of it!

Let me try and clarify - I'm saying that our actual perception of physical attractiveness in someone is as much to do with their personality as it is with their bone structure, etc. And I'd agree that this is certainly a basis for discrimination.

How far it can get us in the lottery of life seems debatable to me. I think someone who is perceived as attractive can more easily get to the starting line of many opportunities, which is very consistent with what you say. Where I part company is that, whether socially or career wise, there's a long road beyond that to success. They can easily be overtaken by initially less attractive folks who have had to work harder to get to the starting line, and who have built up the necessary character skills to go all the way - and that striving if done well brings it's own physical attraction strangely enough. I know in my days as a recruiting manager that there is a frisson about seeing a physically attractive candidate, but it made no difference to the outcomes of the process. Interviewers soon get wise to the perils of appointing someone who looks good but performs badly - buy in haste and repent bitterly at leisure for long after.

But on a relationship level, this is all so personal. I don't care how physically beautiful someone is, if there's nothing at home behind their eyes, it's a big turn off for me. Maybe for folks who want a lot of quick and casual affairs then things are different, and who cares about personality in those situations. I don't work like that myself, and didn't when I was young - but then I'm pretty well out of step with the rest of the world LOL.

 

[Enso]

Just remember people, when you think beauty overrides personality:

Amber heard has the world's most beautiful face according to the golden ratio.

OBJECTION, heresy.

 

[ErikAlberto]

edited

This topic and other themes related to people regarded as “extremely beautiful”, by many, are super interesting to me. I might even have a lot to say on this, but I’ll refrain from commenting because I’m feeling sensitive to the whole thing being so emotionally charged.

As it stands, I already feel emotionally ambivalent about two or three comments I’ve made since having been on the forum. I have so much respect and admiration for so many people in this community and I really value being a part of it. Even as I strive for authenticity, I’ll admit that I want to be well regarded. As I contemplated responding to the thread I realized that I’ve reached a personal comfort-threshold for sharing potentially unpopular, harmony-threatening, perspectives on the forum for a while

That being said, I just wanted to show support for your post @uuu. I’m glad you brought it up and I have found the discussion on this thread to be very excellent!

 

[Asa]

Amber heard has the world's most beautiful face according to the golden ratio.

Many people have faces that match the Golden Ratio. Some pay for it. Some do not. Certain features are also "biologically" appealing (because they convey good health and high fertility), others psychologically.

Right now, many consider the Ogee curve/S curve from brow to cheek to be more important than fitting the golden ratio. Of course, it is easy for surgeons to fake this.

This topic and other themes related to people regarded as “extremely beautiful”, by many, are super interesting to me. I might even have a lot to say on the topic, but I’m reluctant to comment because the whole “beautiful people” thing is so emotionally charged.

As it stands, I already feel emotionally ambivalent about two or three comments I’ve made since having been on the forum. I have so much respect and admiration for so many people in this community and I really value being a part of it. I’ll admit that I want to be well regarded. As I contemplated responding to the thread I realized that I’ve reached a personal comfort-threshold for sharing potentially unpopular, harmony-threatening, perspectives on the forum for a while

This happens to many of us. I feel empathy for your predicament.
The forum culture morphs, too, and how we behave morphs with it.