NT vs. NF intuition
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Detached Retina
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We get the same lemons but we squeeze em differently
sensors get apples. lucky.
sensors get apples. lucky.
Kmal
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ha, elaborate please.
For me it's a very strange thing, my inclinations tend to be F, however I overrule them so to speak on many occasions which is actually quite hard and I find it somewhat draining, but it's what keeps things in my life flowing relatively smoothly. I tend to do the same thing with Ni if I'm doing something that could be dangerous or have large consequences until I "get on" to it.
Occasionally this overruling of natural desires will wear me out and I will do something crazy or irresponsible. however I have noticed if I maintain good physical exercise daily these inclinations don't happen as often.
Detached Retina
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I mean people who share the same perceptive function are getting the same data from their environment, but the judgement processes differ (we sort that data differently.)
sensors get apples was my expressing envy at sensors for being able to "be in the moment"
Kmal
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i see. not all sensors are in the moment however; and you can achieve this yourself through various means. meditation, for one.
people oriented is most certainly nf, but we could make 'situations' a little bit more concise, huh?
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It's the same, just used for different purposes.
If you look at the recent "Feeling is a weakness" thread in the troll cave by that evil-genius-secluded-in-a-secret-cave style INTJ, you see a startingly resemblance to how INTJ's and INFJ's Ni works.
I've noticed that INXJ's get a bad rap for sounding arrogant and i can completely see where it comes from. Firstly, Ni is the hardest function for society to come to terms with. I've had an inkling lately (though this is not fully thought out) that Ne is, by it's nature, easier to understand in that it is actually based in reality and Ne is shared by SJ's with NP's and SJ's appear to have a large population on earth, so it makes sense that on a social and political level that Ne is generally more accepted then Ni. Secondly, Ni tends to cut through the mustard of a conceptual conundrum like no other function. It tends to show people something that they never knew existed and people get defensive because Ni doms are almost completely sure of what they are presenting. Ni's almost metaphysical understanding of the machinations of systems, rules, hierarchies and rituals is startling in that- 1, people tend to reject it if the author isn't careful in presenting it in the most sensitive and balanced way and 2, very little of it is based on presentable evidence.
Film critics and reviewers tend to have a strong Ni streak (not necessarily dominant) in that they can explain and understand trends in movements, styles, genres in cinema and art and how it links to other things such as politics and sociology etc. ENFPs will think you're being an un-inclusive, savagely judgmental high horse asshole.
I myself, can see why people would find my essays and underdeveloped thoughts on things arrogant, because I seem to place a high important on my own opinion which is both unsubstantiated and totally theoretical. Of course, it's not unsubstantiated to me! It mostly is, if I'm actually telling anyone about it. Ni dominants need to take care in supporting everything they believe with a reason that most people would come to expect.
It's like, when I talk about JCF on the forum, it's there and the reasons are solid but I dont bother to filter and substantiate things I say. However, in the other major interests in my life, getting my information across to people so that they totally understand everything I'm saying is massively important to me. My Fe wants everyone to learn, my Fe drives me to teach.
Anyway, going back to the thread by the INTJ.. You can see how he has delved into alot of information that he has fleshed out (using history to compare results to current reality and create a trend) and come to his conclusion. That is Ni, however it has been tinged by his personal dislike and opinion that feeling equates to weakness and dishonesty, purporting that being honest and true to the facts (over your own or anyone elses feelings) is only way to progress. that is so Te. The definition between those two functions was so clear it was funny.
If you look at the recent "Feeling is a weakness" thread in the troll cave by that evil-genius-secluded-in-a-secret-cave style INTJ, you see a startingly resemblance to how INTJ's and INFJ's Ni works.
I've noticed that INXJ's get a bad rap for sounding arrogant and i can completely see where it comes from. Firstly, Ni is the hardest function for society to come to terms with. I've had an inkling lately (though this is not fully thought out) that Ne is, by it's nature, easier to understand in that it is actually based in reality and Ne is shared by SJ's with NP's and SJ's appear to have a large population on earth, so it makes sense that on a social and political level that Ne is generally more accepted then Ni. Secondly, Ni tends to cut through the mustard of a conceptual conundrum like no other function. It tends to show people something that they never knew existed and people get defensive because Ni doms are almost completely sure of what they are presenting. Ni's almost metaphysical understanding of the machinations of systems, rules, hierarchies and rituals is startling in that- 1, people tend to reject it if the author isn't careful in presenting it in the most sensitive and balanced way and 2, very little of it is based on presentable evidence.
Film critics and reviewers tend to have a strong Ni streak (not necessarily dominant) in that they can explain and understand trends in movements, styles, genres in cinema and art and how it links to other things such as politics and sociology etc. ENFPs will think you're being an un-inclusive, savagely judgmental high horse asshole.
I myself, can see why people would find my essays and underdeveloped thoughts on things arrogant, because I seem to place a high important on my own opinion which is both unsubstantiated and totally theoretical. Of course, it's not unsubstantiated to me! It mostly is, if I'm actually telling anyone about it. Ni dominants need to take care in supporting everything they believe with a reason that most people would come to expect.
It's like, when I talk about JCF on the forum, it's there and the reasons are solid but I dont bother to filter and substantiate things I say. However, in the other major interests in my life, getting my information across to people so that they totally understand everything I'm saying is massively important to me. My Fe wants everyone to learn, my Fe drives me to teach.
Anyway, going back to the thread by the INTJ.. You can see how he has delved into alot of information that he has fleshed out (using history to compare results to current reality and create a trend) and come to his conclusion. That is Ni, however it has been tinged by his personal dislike and opinion that feeling equates to weakness and dishonesty, purporting that being honest and true to the facts (over your own or anyone elses feelings) is only way to progress. that is so Te. The definition between those two functions was so clear it was funny.
Ni is the introverted intuition function; [MENTION=3902]sweetea[/MENTION] I will tend to trust it with lots of things but not things that may harm me majorly in some way. I find peoples concepts of extroversion and introversion interesting, I am a people person actually when I'm not being guarded. The definition I've heard though that's the big difference between E and I is where you "recharge your batteries" so to speak and for me that has always been my alone time.
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Sali, you will end up not confusing yourself in the near future, if you understand that a cognitive function is not something you can use. You can't talk to it, trust it or feed it cookies. Ni dominance is before YOU as an individual. YOU are not before Ni.
Think of Ni as a perspective, permanently fixed glasses with it's own shade. Or like your own eyes. With it's own iris colour and own imperfections. Your eyes cannot change, it is such a fundamental part of your experience of life that it pretty much beyond control. So much so that we rarely question the function or existence of our eyes as a separate entity. You can only learn to understand why you do things (through observable behaviour of unconscious motivations- or JCF
).A cognitive function is the bedrock of your motivations. I hope that helps
Sali, you will end up not confusing yourself in the near future, if you understand that a cognitive function is not something you can use. You can't talk to it, trust it or feed it cookies. Ni dominance is before YOU as an individual. YOU are not before Ni.
Think of Ni as a perspective, permanently fixed glasses with it's own shade. Or like your own eyes. With it's own iris colour and own imperfections. Your eyes cannot change, it is such a fundamental part of your experience of life that it pretty much beyond control. So much so that we rarely question the function or existence of our eyes as a separate entity. You can only learn to understand why you do things (through observable behaviour of unconscious motivations- or JCF
A cognitive function is the bedrock of your motivations. I hope that helps
Perhaps it makes sense, but I do, do things that go against my natural inclinations in order to make better decisions. I'm not necessarily saying that I don't still "see" the world in that way just that it depends very largely on the situation the choices I actually decide to make. I was under the impression everyone has all 8 functions but has preferences for which they use instinctually. could you help clear that up for me?
sweetea
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Me too. And it usually has a lot to do with my energy level that day.... being around people zaps my reserves. But I like people!!
This is where you are slipping up [MENTION=3255]Sali[/MENTION] and I can understand because it happens to me too. There is something slightly unnatural about thinking about cognitive functions. It's almost as if they disappear when you are trying to see them. You are placing emphasis on what you do. JCF isn't interested in what you do. It is interested in the process. What you do is simply the result of the process. You can do anything. The process you prefer will increase the likelihood that you will do certain things but, not necessarily prevent you from doing things that buck the trend.
As [MENTION=1378]Orion[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3465]Limit[/MENTION] have said in different ways. JCFs are like the lens through which you view the world. Your lens is fixed. This is why we each have our own perspectives of the truth. None of us see the truth, only a part of it limited by how we think and other concerns. 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass darkly" comes to mind, although that isn't really what the verse is about.
Hmmm, interesting. [MENTION=3710]kiu[/MENTION]
I am a little confused though, if the process only effects the outcome to a limited extent than what is it that would motivate one person to go against a natural inclination and another to go with it? would this yet be another personality layer on top of JFC that is colored by the nurture and experience of our environment over our nature?
I didn't say the process affects the outcome by a limited extent. If that was what was implied then scratch it. What I'm saying is that the process can have different outcomes, some more likely than others. Therefore, it is not a contradiction for you to do things out of character but you are more likely to remain in character than not. Your thinking is informed by stimuli, reasoning, ethics, past experiences and pattern making, etc. All of these can take on different weights but your approach to thought doesn't really change. Which is why if you look at what you do then you can select an MBTI type. However, it may not be accurate because your circumstances may influence you to make choices that are outside the trend. Those choices made however, are still a result of cognitive processes. I for instance have been called an intp and on a recent test the result was istj but I'm aware of the cognitive functions and can say clearly that the functions preferred by those types are not mine. INTJ fits because I know how I think. Now, what I'm saying is my interpretation of the whole thing and not to be taken as Jungian.
P.S. Interestingly, I've observed you resisting the idea that you are an "S" to term it that way. You could be resisting because of negative stereotyping or you could be resisting simply because you've read the descriptions and know that's not how you think even if you do some of the stereotypical things they do like make furniture. It's for you to examine, your own thoughts against the definitions. Really, avoid the examples, they'll just lead you astray unless you fit the stereotype. The definitions are the key.
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I think maybe that "out of character" is the part I'm getting stuck on mainly because of my enneagram which seems to be 3w2 in affable situations and 3w4 in cognitive situations (not sure if this is possible or not) I have a hard time knowing what is "in character" of myself because that depends very largely on the situation. I do think for me a large part of where my confusion comes from is I treat work/disciplines in a completely different fashion than I treat personal/friendships and thinking/debating differently on top of that. I seem to keep them all very very separate from one another with very limited overlap.
I don't necessarily resist the idea of being an "S" however it doesn't make sense to me on an internal level, but my main objection was that no one could seem to sight why they thought that which is somewhat frustrating when you've gone your entire life thinking differently than the descriptions of the S functions. Also it's somewhat annoying to me because learning to make furniture was an extremely hard thing for me to do it took a ton of blood, sweat and tears to get it to where it is and it is something I'm incredibly proud of myself for being able to do, it didn't at all come easily to me.
Thanks [MENTION=3710]kiu[/MENTION] I think part of the problem is that if I take the cognitive functions at face value I seem to get orders that don't make sense.
I don't necessarily resist the idea of being an "S" however it doesn't make sense to me on an internal level, but my main objection was that no one could seem to sight why they thought that which is somewhat frustrating when you've gone your entire life thinking differently than the descriptions of the S functions. Also it's somewhat annoying to me because learning to make furniture was an extremely hard thing for me to do it took a ton of blood, sweat and tears to get it to where it is and it is something I'm incredibly proud of myself for being able to do, it didn't at all come easily to me.
Thanks [MENTION=3710]kiu[/MENTION] I think part of the problem is that if I take the cognitive functions at face value I seem to get orders that don't make sense.
NTs vs. NFs
Please don't confine me to using anyone's typology system to explain myself. My brain rebels against the idea.
NTs and NFs both have intuition and this is where their ideas, inspiration and direction seem to effortlessy arise. The following is my observation of myself, NFs on this forum and instances in real life where I think I may have interacted with NFs. NTs (really meaning this NT) test their intuition's correctness by asking if it makes sense and is it elegantly solved while; NFs appear to test their intuition by asking is this good, ethical or beautiful.
Contradict me if you dare. I have spoken! <echo><echo><echo><echo>
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Okay, now I contradict myself. I didn't see those pesky J's.
Please don't confine me to using anyone's typology system to explain myself. My brain rebels against the idea.
NTs and NFs both have intuition and this is where their ideas, inspiration and direction seem to effortlessy arise. The following is my observation of myself, NFs on this forum and instances in real life where I think I may have interacted with NFs. NTs (really meaning this NT) test their intuition's correctness by asking if it makes sense and is it elegantly solved while; NFs appear to test their intuition by asking is this good, ethical or beautiful.
Contradict me if you dare. I have spoken! <echo><echo><echo><echo>
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Okay, now I contradict myself. I didn't see those pesky J's.