No Internal Monologue
- Thread starter wolly.green
- Start date
dont feel like the lone ranger crazy to some but normal to me is what i keep telling myself , some of my best conversations are with myself and i realized one has to be very honest to beat themselves at chess lol
It was up until my teens that I thought without an internal monologue.
Abstract ideas only.
Now it's just grown everywhere...
Abstract ideas only.
Now it's just grown everywhere...
I don't really have a monologue anymore. I don't want to come across as a special snowflake in any way but after a few spiritual experienced I've realised that thought is not really needed for anything whatsoever. Action is pretty much all there is. There are still subconscious functions but they are less veiled these days, and even when I identify them I know that even that is not necessarily "true". Thinking is not really required much after certain realisations. Even now writing this sentence I don't really know why I'm writing it but I just am. I've essentially reached emptiness but it doesn't really make me any different human wise - just less stressed. A few people on this forum have had similar experiences - I remember reading one where someone said they had a spiritual realisation just on weed, and it was a similar kinda thing by the sounds of it. Hopefully most of us will get to the point where we realise that there is no goal... and therefore no real reason to think as a person, unless it's thinking as a tool.
Verbal and Abstract thinker x 100% of the time, up until... yesterday.
I realized I overthink when I'm uncomfortable. Dry cold air, something that is not immediately noticeable, actually destroys my mental health. For the longest, I took it as, "I'm introspective during the winter huhuhehe" Something basic like that is almost commonplace for the season right?
Well, for years, I tried to experiment with different scenarios regarding a condition or issue.
For example(s):
How much wind (from a fan) is too much wind to sleep.
How much hot air is too hot to sleep.
How much humidity is too much humidity to sleep.
Of course, unbeknownst to me, I'm affected ONLY by the moisture in the room. Since young, I've had breathing troubles, asthma being one. Never needed an inhaler, only using the brrrrrrrtrtrtrtr machine once in a blue moon during my youth.
Never had I thought my whole psychological being is predicated on how much moist air I receive in the winter. This determines my mental state.
Verbal-over-analyzer-stuck-in-thought-loop to "This is me thinking, I can also stop and enjoy nothingness"
Because of this introspective study conducted every winter for the past... I dunno, 8 or 9 winters, my baseline thinking is usually calm and collected, activating the verbal when necessary, and the abstract when digging into topics. So 50/50.
But when the cold dry air stops my normal breathing pattern, and if I'm not aware of it, I get 100% of both, verbal and abstract at the same time. This, you could say my brain is working on a lack of air, the belief that it's dying and the will of human determination to keep me alive.
You could say during these moments, that have been happening for years, I've seen into the future, used this panic (which was eventually normalized by my brain) to telepathically talk to the people I feel close to, and sort through the mental problems of other people,
or
You could say your brain reacts to how much oxygen it receives and your thought patterns my change because of it if you're unaware.
I'd like to think people see the past, present and future flash in their eyes when they're in a near death situation. Imagine that being the fucking norm, all the time, because you suck at breathing.
Don't imagine that. It's stupid.
I realized I overthink when I'm uncomfortable. Dry cold air, something that is not immediately noticeable, actually destroys my mental health. For the longest, I took it as, "I'm introspective during the winter huhuhehe" Something basic like that is almost commonplace for the season right?
Well, for years, I tried to experiment with different scenarios regarding a condition or issue.
For example(s):
How much wind (from a fan) is too much wind to sleep.
How much hot air is too hot to sleep.
How much humidity is too much humidity to sleep.
Of course, unbeknownst to me, I'm affected ONLY by the moisture in the room. Since young, I've had breathing troubles, asthma being one. Never needed an inhaler, only using the brrrrrrrtrtrtrtr machine once in a blue moon during my youth.
Never had I thought my whole psychological being is predicated on how much moist air I receive in the winter. This determines my mental state.
Verbal-over-analyzer-stuck-in-thought-loop to "This is me thinking, I can also stop and enjoy nothingness"
Because of this introspective study conducted every winter for the past... I dunno, 8 or 9 winters, my baseline thinking is usually calm and collected, activating the verbal when necessary, and the abstract when digging into topics. So 50/50.
But when the cold dry air stops my normal breathing pattern, and if I'm not aware of it, I get 100% of both, verbal and abstract at the same time. This, you could say my brain is working on a lack of air, the belief that it's dying and the will of human determination to keep me alive.
You could say during these moments, that have been happening for years, I've seen into the future, used this panic (which was eventually normalized by my brain) to telepathically talk to the people I feel close to, and sort through the mental problems of other people,
or
You could say your brain reacts to how much oxygen it receives and your thought patterns my change because of it if you're unaware.
I'd like to think people see the past, present and future flash in their eyes when they're in a near death situation. Imagine that being the fucking norm, all the time, because you suck at breathing.
Don't imagine that. It's stupid.
- Sep 28, 2008
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Sorry I missed this thread a couple of years back because it's an interesting topic.
What is thought? I wonder if some of the differences that people report is as much to do with what it is as whether they do it.
It seems obvious to me that everyone thinks (in its widest sense) both verbally and non-verbally. A lot of what we do every day cannot be handled with narrative thought, which is too slow and linear for many purposes. For example, I'm thinking all the time while I'm driving but very little of it is expressed in words - I'd have an accident if I tried because verbalising it just isn't fast and reactive enough. I do think a lot in words, but for me it seems to be like using a magnifying glass on something that's already there, rather than creating the idea - though that's maybe not quite right because there's a symbiosis going on with the ground of my idea, where the core is fed (though only partially) by the words as well as expressed by them. The way I describe this in MBTI terms is that it's a dance between Ni and Ti - it's not symmetric though because my insights are multi-dimensional while my verbalised thought is linear and it take a lot of effort to extract an always less-than perfect linear verbal representation of the multi-dimensional core.
But I wonder if some people would disagree with calling what I'm doing 'thinking' in order to drive a car successfully. It's the same if we can play a musical instrument well - are we thinking non-verbally in order to produce the music? If we are fluent in these activities, we can actually carry on a verbal dialogue with ourselves about something totally unrelated to what we are doing at the same time - I do this a lot when I'm driving: I can even carry on a conversation with someone else at the same time. They are obviously different sorts of mental activity, and I guess it's a matter of semantics whether we label them both with the term 'thinking'. More subtle is the distinction I made between MBTI Ni and Ti, where there is a clear semantic difference built into the conceptual model - we could argue there that the mental experience of Ni is not thinking by definition.
What is thought? I wonder if some of the differences that people report is as much to do with what it is as whether they do it.
It seems obvious to me that everyone thinks (in its widest sense) both verbally and non-verbally. A lot of what we do every day cannot be handled with narrative thought, which is too slow and linear for many purposes. For example, I'm thinking all the time while I'm driving but very little of it is expressed in words - I'd have an accident if I tried because verbalising it just isn't fast and reactive enough. I do think a lot in words, but for me it seems to be like using a magnifying glass on something that's already there, rather than creating the idea - though that's maybe not quite right because there's a symbiosis going on with the ground of my idea, where the core is fed (though only partially) by the words as well as expressed by them. The way I describe this in MBTI terms is that it's a dance between Ni and Ti - it's not symmetric though because my insights are multi-dimensional while my verbalised thought is linear and it take a lot of effort to extract an always less-than perfect linear verbal representation of the multi-dimensional core.
But I wonder if some people would disagree with calling what I'm doing 'thinking' in order to drive a car successfully. It's the same if we can play a musical instrument well - are we thinking non-verbally in order to produce the music? If we are fluent in these activities, we can actually carry on a verbal dialogue with ourselves about something totally unrelated to what we are doing at the same time - I do this a lot when I'm driving: I can even carry on a conversation with someone else at the same time. They are obviously different sorts of mental activity, and I guess it's a matter of semantics whether we label them both with the term 'thinking'. More subtle is the distinction I made between MBTI Ni and Ti, where there is a clear semantic difference built into the conceptual model - we could argue there that the mental experience of Ni is not thinking by definition.
Words are a means of expression, a means of externalising a thought in some way. If you were born and developed in isolation from any form of spoken language, then you would have no concept of speech and would therefore have to develop alternative ways to represent your thoughts to yourself. You might develop some form of personal language, but you would only employ this to the extent that you found it necessary and would therefore retain some conscious distinction between the two.
A person who is only thinking in words is a person whose thought patterns are fundamentally rooted in social constructs. Personally, I find my monologue to be most intense during times when I'm preoccupied with an egotistical concern. It's when I'm worrying about what others are thinking about me. It plays less of a part in the formation of the thought itself, as it does in the will to relay it to others. For a person to fundamentally rely on or default to that kind of thinking seems terribly restrictive, but it also explains a lot.
A person who is only thinking in words is a person whose thought patterns are fundamentally rooted in social constructs. Personally, I find my monologue to be most intense during times when I'm preoccupied with an egotistical concern. It's when I'm worrying about what others are thinking about me. It plays less of a part in the formation of the thought itself, as it does in the will to relay it to others. For a person to fundamentally rely on or default to that kind of thinking seems terribly restrictive, but it also explains a lot.
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I suspect there's a difference between being able to consciously visualize and being able to unconsciously visualize. Many people with aphantasia likely just interpret visualizations as something more like a gut feeling to do something.
When I learnt to speed read, which increases both comprehension and retention of what's read, I recall reading that the main obstacle to reading fast is an internal verbalisation of what's being read.
I realised then that most people must verbalise their thoughts, even though I don't.
While non verbalisation may have efficiency benefits in learning, comprehension, and understanding, inefficiency arises in communication of what one has learnt.
Many people can just rattle off what they've previously verbalised, without really thinking about it. I say they rattle it off, because they'll used the exact same words when expressing a thought even weeks apart. But if you ask them a question, they either attempt repeating themselves, or struggle to say anything pertinent.
For a non mental verbaliser like myself, expressing an abstractly retained concept to others can be a bit verbose and clunky. However, I can address questions, draw inferences, and apply metaphors and analogies far more dexterously than obvious verbal thinkers.
I realised then that most people must verbalise their thoughts, even though I don't.
While non verbalisation may have efficiency benefits in learning, comprehension, and understanding, inefficiency arises in communication of what one has learnt.
Many people can just rattle off what they've previously verbalised, without really thinking about it. I say they rattle it off, because they'll used the exact same words when expressing a thought even weeks apart. But if you ask them a question, they either attempt repeating themselves, or struggle to say anything pertinent.
For a non mental verbaliser like myself, expressing an abstractly retained concept to others can be a bit verbose and clunky. However, I can address questions, draw inferences, and apply metaphors and analogies far more dexterously than obvious verbal thinkers.