Muslim Civil War in Europe | INFJ Forum

Muslim Civil War in Europe

Krypton

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May 24, 2016
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So, I'd been sold on the possibility of it for a little while till I read a book recently, by a former Fed official who'd turned libertarian/conservative. He was talking about internment camps, which were something I already knew about but hadn't thought of recently.


But, in thinking about them, I can sort of see some parallels between fears of civil war in Europe, and fears of Japanese spies. You could see the possibility of them both, at those times. But, the worry about Japanese spies didn't happen. It's similar to a lot of crises we think we spot in advance--ebola, for instance--but not all. Some crises are legitimate, which is why we have any understanding of such a concept.

So, I want to know, especially from history majors such as [MENTION=13855]JJJA[/MENTION] : What makes this crisis the one? Are there historical examples of similar situations on a very narrow and micro level as well as a broad one? Is the time difference between those situations and now nonexistent or irrelevant?
 
So, I'd been sold on the possibility of it for a little while till I read a book recently, by a former Fed official who'd turned libertarian/conservative. He was talking about internment camps, which were something I already knew about but hadn't thought of recently.


But, in thinking about them, I can sort of see some parallels between fears of civil war in Europe, and fears of Japanese spies. You could see the possibility of them both, at those times. But, the worry about Japanese spies didn't happen. It's similar to a lot of crises we think we spot in advance--ebola, for instance--but not all. Some crises are legitimate, which is why we have any understanding of such a concept.

So, I want to know, especially from history majors such as @JJJA : What makes this crisis the one? Are there historical examples of similar situations on a very narrow and micro level as well as a broad one? Is the time difference between those situations and now nonexistent or irrelevant?

Are you familiar with Manzanar and the many other internment and detention camps that existed in the US?
How Japanese families who had been living peacefully in the US had their property, homes, businesses, etc. taken from them by force and most never got back what they had beforehand.
It was a travesty then and would be again IMHO, there has got to be better and more enlightened ways of dealing with the present issues without imprisoning people or walling off a Ghetto.
 
Are you familiar with Manzanar and the many other internment and detention camps that existed in the US?
How Japanese families who had been living peacefully in the US had their property, homes, businesses, etc. taken from them by force and most never got back what they had beforehand.
It was a travesty then and would be again IMHO, there has got to be better and more enlightened ways of dealing with the present issues without imprisoning people or walling off a Ghetto.

I hate to say it, but I would not be shocked if this type of thing were to occur again in the future as depicted in Children of Men. Especially under president Trump.
 
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I will try to flesh this out in a little more detail with historical examples, but I need to get some sleep first. So I shall say this:

The worry about the Japanese spies didn't confirm itself because the Americans were too paranoid about being attacked on their homeland after what had happened at Pearl Harbour, so they provided for themselves a buffer in order to ease their resentment of the Japanese and to ensure that any existential threat from within was almost non-existent. Tensions were extremely high, as the entire country was pulled away by the tide of the biggest war in human history; the entire industry was mobilised on a scale that had never been seen before in its history. A B-25 Mitchell light-bomber rolled off the production line every 60 minutes. The issue with the tensions came about because the ideas of American exceptionalism during that time were higher than they had ever been: the citizens viewed their enemies as inferior in the sense of cultural habits and customs, and as the war in the pacific began to grudge along like a meat-grinder. Not only was the end of the war against the Japanese feeling like an extremely slow and grinding possibility, the exceptionalism attitude towards America's neighbours, both close and further away, was tested more than it had ever been in the history of the Republic. American superiority in technology, industrial capacity and patriotism became increasingly overshadowed to the utter bewilderment and horror of the United States Marine Corps as they fought their way across Guadalcanal in 1942. But the real turning point in the pacific came during the aftermath of the Battle of Tarawa in 1943.

The American invasion force to the Gilbert Islands was the first major offensive as part of the "Island Hopping" campaign after the decisive victory during the American counter-attack at Midway; destroying the Japanese carrier-based capability to a significant extent. The fleet headed for the invasion was the largest yet assembled for a single operation in the Pacific, consisting of 130+ ships and 17 aircraft carriers. On board the transport ships was the 2nd Marine Division and a part of the Army's 27th Infantry Division, for a total of about 35,000 troops. For several hours, the northern tip island - Tarawa - consisting of only 600 yards of palm tree-laden airstrip was heavily fortified by 2,600 Imperial Japanese Marines. As the Marines approached the beach, they began to realise that the Japanese were fighting on a scale of ferocity that had produced, during this battle, some of the fiercest and most intense fighting the Marines would ever had to have faced. 5,000 Marines managed to make it ashore, and after 72 straight hours of intense fighting, only a handful of Japanese were left alive and taken prisoner; the rest had died for their emperor. For only 600 yards of sand, one thousand Marines were killed, and 500 further casualties. The aftermath was shocking for the Americans, and it was the first time in its history to have publicly screened combat footage of the fighting, as well as displaying photographs of dead Marines lying on the beaches.

The combined reaction to such a battle, and the many battles that were fought for much longer, in harsher conditions, and with far more brutal casualties, produced a shock-wave of resentment for the Japanese that lasted for years even after the war finally ended. Some veterans admitted to hating the Japanese for decades post-war for the brutal lengths they went to ensure that their honour remained intact for the Emperor's glory. During Okinawa, some Japanese troops strapped bomb belts to the coerced civilians, and forced them down the rocky hills toward the entrenched Marines sitting in the mud hoping not to get their throats slit. Heinous atrocities occurred that would make your blood run cold and your heart skip a beat. It must be maintained that the Japanese threat during the Second World War was wholly existential. The Japanese Americans considered themselves simply American at heart and in their minds. They had absolutely no hidden agenda toward their fellow citizens, and the American veterans often discussed the rising regret they had felt in allowing the internment camps to continue through the war, despite them even being allowed to fight for a country that had treated them in a disgusting manner back home.


Having said all of that...It is unwise to compare the mistrust and mistreatment of the Japanese Americans during the Second World War between that and the fears that many Europeans now currently face as a result of the recent influx of nearly a million migrants and refugees; most of whom had not fled from war-torn Syria, but had cross through EU countries from North Africa in order to better their economic interests. Many of these migrants are currently showing absolutely no signs of wishing to integrate within their respective EU countries. Many of them have been filmed setting fire to streets, attacking journalists, attempting to raise Jihadi revolts, raping women en-masse in cities such as Colonge, and refusing to be given food and water upon entering the country. The media preferred to keep these events under tight concealment so as not to 'stir the pot'. It is slowly beginning to dawn on the European population that Islamic ideology and the many sub-sections of its cultural values within the North African and Middle-Eastern states is being exported wholesale to the Western continent on a scale and at such a rate, that a battle between civilisations and the questions raised from it is almost too inevitable to call. There is no immediate existential threat by a unified state governed by autocratic measures such as that of the Imperial Japanese Empire during the 1940s. But the ferocity and determination to protect their identity whilst crushing another, to project their own prejudices of women, of gays, of Jews, and of non-Muslims upon the citizens of the countries they find themselves thrust into has led to some horrific events unfolding in the few months. Western civilization needs to be preserved, and the EU-led project to commit to open borders policy at the expense of the host cultures has created yet more resentment of the established political class; which has witnessed a sudden halt with Britain voting to leave the European Union two days ago. This is a battle between conflicting civilizations; between a unified continent based on shared liberal values of tolerance and individual liberty, and of a grouping of countries which cannot control itself due to sectarian turmoil and political sabotage plagued by civil war. If such ideologies are being exported to countries in-which most of the population is not even considering itself Muslim, deep tensions are proving to be an inevitable consequence of no border controls. Combine this with the fact that Islam has been locked into a civil within its own ranks; between Sunni and Shia, and different regions and nations of Islam battling to be at the centre of the Prophet's holy order. Nothing good at all can come from this cultural and religious violence exporting itself to the wider regions that have been relatively peaceful in recent years.

I'll try to answer your question in further detail after I get some sleep ;)
 
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I hate to say it, but I would not be shocked if this type of thing were to occur again in the future as depicted in Children of Men. Especially under president Trump.

Scary shit bro.
[MENTION=13855]JJJA[/MENTION] nice summary (no sarcasm)

But my point was places like that...camps, ghettos...walls, historically create more tension not the other way around.
Look at Gaza...perfect example, the Israeli have to maintain a constant police state which is very brutal to many innocent people, not to mention must be very costly.
The Israelis are doing exactly to the Palestinians as was done to them....they’ve walled them up in a Ghetto.
Sure it’s not the same, or for the same reasons, but show me somewhere that isn’t Dictatorial and has successfully done such a thing?
I DON’T have the answers, but surely we have come far enough along where we don’t have to cage or wall off or intern or do any such thing to another person.
Surely there has to be a solution that will work to protect not only the citizens of the country, but also the human rights of people of any race, or creed, or religion.
Because a whole lot of innocent people always get swept up in the mix of the religious nutbag pricks it’s seems when such things are attempted.
It adds fuel to the fire.
 
I too am History major for the record.

Nice summary [MENTION=13855]JJJA[/MENTION]. Conspicuously absent from your account is the concept of race. The Japanese were seen as a race apart from others characterized in terms of treachery,cowardice, and fanaticism which were inherent in their character and a part of their racial character. The attack on Pearl Harbour was seen as a "sneak attack", beyond the boundaries of normal just warfare, but characteristic of the racial qualities of the Japanese. The atrocities perpetuated by Imperial Japan in China and elsewhere were not seen in terms of a society mislead by a rogue ideology (as the Germans were) but merely as a manifestation of the racial character of the Japanese. Allied troops consistently viewed the Japanese troops as subhuman and unworthy of normal treatment accorded to POWs. Japanese Americans belonged to the same race as the Japanese, so it wasn't a stretch to see them as a potential "fifth column" within the US, a threat that needed to be contained. Germans and Italian nationals were interned too, but many of Japanese who were interned had lived in US for generations, but when you see people as inherently fanatical, cowadly and treacherous, no amount of exposure to the benefits of American civilization can "cure" such individuals.

Consider this quote from Lieutenant General John L. DeWitt, head of the Western Command, justifying the interment:

I don't want any of them [persons of Japanese ancestry] here. They are a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty... It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty... But we must worry about the Japanese all the time until he is wiped off the map.

Interment included persons of part-Japanese ancestry as well. Anyone with at least one-sixteenth (equivalent to having one great-great grandparent) Japanese ancestry was eligible. Korean-Americans and Taiwanese, classified as ethnically Japanese because both Korea and Taiwan were Japanese colonies, were also included.

What about today? Is each Muslim immigrant seen as a potential Jihadi rather than fleeing the destruction caused by a fanatical ideology? Is fanaticism and violence seen as a part of their character, something they can never renounce because they were born and bred this way? I'll let you draw your own conclusions...
 
I hate to say it, but I would not be shocked if this type of thing were to occur again in the future as depicted in Children of Men. Especially under president Trump.
Why especially trump? Do you mean especially trump over Hillary? I think trump is actually disinterested in war, and is more interested in economical issues. Hillary is no holds barred and as a member of the establishment is pro war.
 
Why especially trump? Do you mean especially trump over Hillary? I think trump is actually disinterested in war, and is more interested in economical issues. Hillary is no holds barred and as a member of the establishment is pro war.

For the record I think they both suck. I just think detention camps are more likely under Trump because his supporters would be more open to the idea than would be Hillary's supporters. But I honestly believe both potential presidencies could be disastrous for a number of reasons. That is why I am running as an independent. I think I would be better than both of them, which of course is not saying very much. You want to be my running mate?
 
For the record I think they both suck. I just think detention camps are more likely under Trump because his supporters would be more open to the idea than would be Hillary's supporters. But I honestly believe both potential presidencies could be disastrous for a number of reasons. That is why I am running as an independent. I think I would be better than both of them, which of course is not saying very much. You want to be my running mate?

I just ran a 5 k today so I have experience. Yes.
 
What's the leap from forcing Muslims to have identity badges to intertwining them in camps? Its not a big leap...
 
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I too am History major for the record.

Nice summary [MENTION=13855]JJJA[/MENTION]. Conspicuously absent from your account is the concept of race. The Japanese were seen as a race apart from others characterized in terms of treachery,cowardice, and fanaticism which were inherent in their character and a part of their racial character. The attack on Pearl Harbour was seen as a "sneak attack", beyond the boundaries of normal just warfare, but characteristic of the racial qualities of the Japanese. The atrocities perpetuated by Imperial Japan in China and elsewhere were not seen in terms of a society mislead by a rogue ideology (as the Germans were) but merely as a manifestation of the racial character of the Japanese. Allied troops consistently viewed the Japanese troops as subhuman and unworthy of normal treatment accorded to POWs. Japanese Americans belonged to the same race as the Japanese, so it wasn't a stretch to see them as a potential "fifth column" within the US, a threat that needed to be contained. Germans and Italian nationals were interned too, but many of Japanese who were interned had lived in US for generations, but when you see people as inherently fanatical, cowadly and treacherous, no amount of exposure to the benefits of American civilization can "cure" such individuals.

Consider this quote from Lieutenant General John L. DeWitt, head of the Western Command, justifying the interment:

I don't want any of them [persons of Japanese ancestry] here. They are a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty... It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty... But we must worry about the Japanese all the time until he is wiped off the map.

Interment included persons of part-Japanese ancestry as well. Anyone with at least one-sixteenth (equivalent to having one great-great grandparent) Japanese ancestry was eligible. Korean-Americans and Taiwanese, classified as ethnically Japanese because both Korea and Taiwan were Japanese colonies, were also included.

What about today? Is each Muslim immigrant seen as a potential Jihadi rather than fleeing the destruction caused by a fanatical ideology? Is fanaticism and violence seen as a part of their character, something they can never renounce because they were born and bred this way? I'll let you draw your own conclusions...

"Conspicuously absent" - you're such a bitter person; can't you ever accept that I might have different perspectives than you? Get used to it.
 
"Conspicuously absent" - you're such a bitter person; can't you ever accept that I might have different perspectives than you? Get used to it.[/

Same could be said for you, Jack. It's a discussion, he added something else to it. I have seen no bitterness in anything this members has posted on the forum.
 
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"Conspicuously absent" - you're such a bitter person; can't you ever accept that I might have different perspectives than you? Get used to it.[/

Same could be said for you, Jack. It's a discussion, he added something else to it. I have seen no bitterness in anything this members has posted on the forum.

That is utter nonsense as you well know. I've never called any his posts conspicuous because I disagreed with it. When have I shown signs of bitterness toward my fellow members? Are you going to start accusing me of personally attacking someone again? Goodness, I'm sick and tired of some of these members dragging down debates on those political threads, and several people I know are sick and tired of it too, they just don't suggest it outright because they're too busy with other things.

I had already planned to take a break from the forum anyway, so perhaps that will be to the benefit of those that think I am 'conspicuous'. Either way, I need it to secure my own sanity.
 
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I too am History major for the record.

Didn't know. Sorry about that.


Nice summary [MENTION=13855]JJJA[/MENTION]. Conspicuously absent from your account is the concept of race. The Japanese were seen as a race apart from others characterized in terms of treachery,cowardice, and fanaticism which were inherent in their character and a part of their racial character. The attack on Pearl Harbour was seen as a "sneak attack", beyond the boundaries of normal just warfare, but characteristic of the racial qualities of the Japanese. The atrocities perpetuated by Imperial Japan in China and elsewhere were not seen in terms of a society mislead by a rogue ideology (as the Germans were) but merely as a manifestation of the racial character of the Japanese. Allied troops consistently viewed the Japanese troops as subhuman and unworthy of normal treatment accorded to POWs. Japanese Americans belonged to the same race as the Japanese, so it wasn't a stretch to see them as a potential "fifth column" within the US, a threat that needed to be contained. Germans and Italian nationals were interned too, but many of Japanese who were interned had lived in US for generations, but when you see people as inherently fanatical, cowadly and treacherous, no amount of exposure to the benefits of American civilization can "cure" such individuals.

Consider this quote from Lieutenant General John L. DeWitt, head of the Western Command, justifying the interment:

I don't want any of them [persons of Japanese ancestry] here. They are a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty... It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty... But we must worry about the Japanese all the time until he is wiped off the map.

Interment included persons of part-Japanese ancestry as well. Anyone with at least one-sixteenth (equivalent to having one great-great grandparent) Japanese ancestry was eligible. Korean-Americans and Taiwanese, classified as ethnically Japanese because both Korea and Taiwan were Japanese colonies, were also included.

What about today? Is each Muslim immigrant seen as a potential Jihadi rather than fleeing the destruction caused by a fanatical ideology? Is fanaticism and violence seen as a part of their character, something they can never renounce because they were born and bred this way? I'll let you draw your own conclusions...

The thing is, even if you remove the racial component of their arguments, you're still left with the fact that many of these Muslim immigrants will grow up with families and neighborhoods or communities that favor Islam, and perhaps conservative Islam at that. You're obviously going to see some inheriting of ideologies by people. This might be a small portion of people, too, but you don't need a hundred percent of the population to start a war.

Obviously they can renounce it, but will they is also a big question.
 
I will add what I know.
There are massive "Fema" camps that have been built and are being built across the US. These camps apparently though illegally are under the jurisdiction of the federal government. I have a friend who is a police officer. He said that a few people have died building these camps and that while police are supposed to investigate deaths in their jurisdictions, they have been turned away and never allowed to enter these facilities.
These camps are being built for a reason outside of housing people for catastrophes of which the American people have been told they are being built for.
Couple this with the fact the US government has a massive stock pile of ammo now. Enough so that 2 years ago they had enough to accommodate 2 bullets for every American and they still were placing massive orders for even more. This happening all under the Obama administration.
Now, you may say this is another conspiracy theory. I suppose that in part depends on how you decide to link the pieces. However I can assure you the pieces themselves are all well established fact.
 
The terribly bitter reaction from members of the British electorate after the Brexit vote has drove me further to insanity, so I must apologise to both [MENTION=14199]brightmoon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5297]Katniss Neverbeef[/MENTION] for getting incredibly overzealous in my responses. Much has happened over the course of the last few days that has made my blood boil to record temperatures. I'll take a break from the forum until the hysteria in my country has died down, and people finally end their tirades against the voters.
 
Here in America liberals only make headway with their agenda when they lie, cheat and steal. It really does not seem to be any different in the rest of the world from what I can tell.
 
I will add what I know.
There are massive "Fema" camps that have been built and are being built across the US. These camps apparently though illegally are under the jurisdiction of the federal government. I have a friend who is a police officer. He said that a few people have died building these camps and that while police are supposed to investigate deaths in their jurisdictions, they have been turned away and never allowed to enter these facilities.
These camps are being built for a reason outside of housing people for catastrophes of which the American people have been told they are being built for.
Couple this with the fact the US government has a massive stock pile of ammo now. Enough so that 2 years ago they had enough to accommodate 2 bullets for every American and they still were placing massive orders for even more. This happening all under the Obama administration.
Now, you may say this is another conspiracy theory. I suppose that in part depends on how you decide to link the pieces. However I can assure you the pieces themselves are all well established fact.

At what point does a conspiracy theory become a proven conspiracy?
 
[MENTION=13855]JJJA[/MENTION] there is no need to apologize as you have been doing nothing but what I have been doing, forcefully putting forth your point-of-view. If I have given offence to you for doing the same, please accept my apology, The only time I was truly offended was when I was told my some members to "shut up and be happy for Leave" or stop being a "sore loser". I will not have my right to express my opinions muzzled just because you don't like what I am saying. I saw the Leave side forcefully put forth their opinions and I felt compelled to the same for Remain. Many people voted to Remain, its not like the vote wasn't close and many lingering issues are unresolved by the vote. I fear the lasting legacy of what happened last Thursday will be division, division among the regions (I am very curious to hear from any Scottish members what they think of vote) also a generational divide. The only way to heal divisions is to listen. The world needs a strong UK, the country that gave the world so much, in my opinion.