Men Inequality: are men falling behind in society? | Page 5 | INFJ Forum

Men Inequality: are men falling behind in society?

I would hope that men would not allow themselves to be destroyed, but I understand this growing concern that we are being made to feel unnecessary, be it sexually economically or otherwise. There seems to be an almost sociopathic lack of empathy surrounding the issue of male insecurity, which makes it difficult to speak up without the fear you'll invite abuse.

What I do not understand is why women would expect men to be in alliance with something that devalues them. If we are not necessary, then our support must not be necessary either.

The direction the Anglo nations went with this is truly a bad sign that society is moving in a bad direction towards what will end with society becoming a mouse utopia where men go from not only being the disposable gender but also socially obsolete.
 
Being social creatures, that seems highly, highly unlikely. Besides, we find that kind of thing shallow. When tragedy occurs, we cry out to love, friendship, truth, and beauty. These aren't created values. Nietzsche's insights were brilliant, but his conclusions were a despondent escape from his sad social life. I don't think he understood the heart of Christianity at all, as it asks for far more self-overcoming than anything you could ask of yourself with all your desires that seek comfort and ease.

The paradox is posed clearly:
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. - Matthew 10:39

Being social doesn't mean we need to be needed but that we need hierarchy, acceptance, contest, reward, shared morality, common goals, and connection this does not necessitate that there is a best way to do this, social is a general way of being not a specific set of actions, orientations, or beliefs which is why many different cultures come up with many different ways of being social, yet while all still being the same social animal. Further, to me it's clear that our old models fail in validating that clearly when humans are relating, we care about more than just love, friendship, truth, and beauty which is partly why people are going to great lengths to undermine these beliefs and the institutions that they feel represent or promote them like the Church. Say what you will about Nietzche at least he recognized and accepted that the world has changed since the collapse of the Roman Empire, we now live a post-industrial world, in an information age that is hurling violent and head long towards some explosive uncertain future, and we must say yes to this and contend with this change if we are truly to find value in our position as people present on this earth at this moment in time. As for tragedy, the Greeks were tragedians par excellence, yet they were not paragons of Christain values. I have nothing against Christianity, but I think you misunderstand Nietzsche, because his conclusions are much more sophisticated than a desire to escape his failed social life. He may not have been married or famous for his ideas in the way that he would have wanted and at times megalomaniacal in his writing, but factually he was a part of the social elite of his time hence his friendship with Richard Wagner. Nietzche didn't advocate that human-being could create their own values. Nietzche posited that the Übermenschen the evolution of man when striving towards cultural and creative excellence would be able to create its own value, but the Übermenschen is to man like man is to our common ancestor with Chimpanzee. We are over them, superior in our capacities to use language, socialize, invent tools, reason, and create material culture, or are more than they in what they show to be the basic vestiges for human existence, in like manner though human beings cannot create their own values they will give rise to a creature that can create its own values when people live like Goethe or Napolean or ect overtime.

Do you actually believe I care about comfort and ease if I choose to do things that are absurdly difficult even for the most cognitively impressive of humans? I make a living doing mathematics, currently, its fairly difficult and makes me feel stupid and there are problems that are simply demoralizing which no one has made much progress on in the last 200 years.

I seek challenge and demands, because I find this most rewarding way for me to be. Self-denial and self-annihilation aren't completely about self-overcoming; it really depends on where you place the arrow which indicates improvement. Being more capable, able, creative, excellent, reliable, honorable, noble, honest, and individuated is the right direction to me.

I think Nietzsche understood the heart of Christianity but held a different set of values given he was an aristocrat who was a philologist and scholar of Greek and Roman antiquity who was a student of European high culture. What do you get when you subject Europeans to 2,000 years of Christianity? Well, when you infuse it with Ancient Greek/Homeric and Hellenistic Culture: universities, medicine, the renaissance, science, classical music, modern mathematics and philosophy; yet, fast forward under the banner of Protestantism and Capitalism: social justice, feminism, nihilism, and socialism, hate of men, the hate of Anglican and Eruopean history, and the denial of nature, given I don't take it that you seem to find these things as absolute improvements on the conditions of our existence and culture and that they're essentially products of Christianity you might understand why Nietzche wasn't fond of the ultimate consequences of Christianity as a Prussian aristocrat and thus advocated we move away from Christina Morality, because it would have been unheard of for the Vikings to hate themselves, their history, gods, and culture, so why do their descendants? Why after 2,000 years of Christianity do you get atheism and nihilism? There would be no such thing as an atheistic or nihilistic Saxon or Celt, so why their descendants? Nietzsche's answer, 2,000 years of Christianity and the industrial revolution made it worse. You may disagree with his premise and conclusions, but don't straw man his argument.

I respect Jesus, but I think given its harder to convince people to question the utility or necessity or good of truth and love than it is convince them to question the utility or necessity or good of pain, suffering, and strife, that it's pretty easy to live like a Christian, only far leaning leftist don't really like Christians or Christian values or Christian Morals, though for many this may be lip service I tend to think people hate lies and adultery; I'm not saying we should like these things, but I think it's easier to be a Christian than a free-spirited individual especially when there are 2.2 billion of you guys across the globe and likely only one of me.
 
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lover, parent, friend, etc.

There is no reason to believe that biology doesn't influence love, attachment, friendship, nurture, and instruction, to me a large part of the issue is that people don't empirically understand what it means to be human. We seem to have an innate desire to want to categorize one another into basics social categories such as friend, enemy, child, parent, partner, and alpha being basic ones that we even share with Chimpanzees. You don't have to learn what a parent, friend, lover, or enemy is, just who is and who isn't and why, human babies know who mama is from her scent only seconds after they're born.
 
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But self-determined identity is hollow because it depends on isolated internal feelings that are often at odds and filtered by culture rather than the consequences and potential of your choices and actions in the social sphere, which are necessary to integrate your identity with purpose.

No Identity is self-determined, even trans women are acknowledging that to be a woman is to have a valid social identity and they didn't decide that woman is a valid identity for a human being just that they would like to be able to fit in that category or be accepted as having this social identity on the basis of their neurological experience rather than their physical morphology or biological sex. The feelings may be internal, but the identity is not self-determined which is why people don't like the idea that people can declare themselves as man or women independent their morphology. Further, I didn't come up with individualism Adam Smith and Jeremy Bentham did I just happen to also be influenced by Nietzsche, Jung, Maslow, Oswald Spengler, William James, Ralph Waldo Emmerson, and C.S. Peirce, now this inherited identity that I have as who I am from nature to influence may not matter or be common to the social circles you most frequent, but I didn't invent my identity whole cloth or simply from my emotions; it developed from well-established figures and archetypes present in western culture. I simply do not derive my identity from the normative identities of the mainstream dominant or fully from contemporary culture when it comes to my beliefs. For instance, I don't identify as an Atheist because I don't oppose myself to Christianity, even if I don't believe in Christianity. I think one should pay attention to the consequences of choice as they relate to society and group dynamics, but you can't expect that two people who hold different values to evaluate the same social consequences similarly or be perceived, valued, or seen to mean the same thing to each other.
 
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Men should not allow themselves to be destroyed, but, in the future, we should not allow our existence to be defined by being needed by others but learn to need ourselves to make our existence its own necessity or to see what in our existence commands its own necessity; its own thou shalt, a scared yes. I want to establish a new philosophy as inspired by Maslow, Jung, and Nietzche where we men can delight in struggling with our insecurities to become something more optimistic and exuberant. This is an opportunity for much creativity and self-overcoming, finding a new abundance of will for we have something new to endure as an existential stress that can help create a new existential strength. How much more can man express when he has freedom to do what he values rather than what necessity society and woman makes out of him. Invite the abuse because the right amount will just make you resilient and cunning. We who chose to over-come the classical masculine norms of being needed, to become the type that values and honors what they find in themselves to become self-organizing a new horizon with new seas to explore are before us such that we can lead men into an entirely new pattern of existence that no longer gives to the world out of necessity, but self-willingness, becoming something no longer needed, but something willing. No longer needed is the cultivation of obedience, the western soul conditioned under a history of discipline can unleash its instincts and break away from being what we men don't like, what we do not find noble, agreeable, or inspiring. Where one door closes another opens. Let us embrace the end of modern man and become a bridge towards a higher man.

A perspective I've been playing around with.

I agree we should develop ourselves for our own benefit, rather than to be needed by others. But this kind of social change requires cooperation on a mass scale and unfortunately there are a lot of stupid men out there who hold the rest of us back with their antics.
 
quote from Sidis " But if those same men understood that this was changed forever in the historic moment when the death of Christ breathed inseparable sovereignty and value into each individual, they could still find grace in service to Him." unquote

This brings a smile to my face. We are on our own when we choose to be.

Galatians 3:28-29
King James Version

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
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While the Ten Commandments were being written for Moses to give the people, did they not build a golden calf to worship in just 40 days of Moses' absence? Yet, they saw the thunder from God in the mountain. Society is weak.

Exodus 32:1-23
King James Version

32 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.



19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

21 And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?

22 And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
 
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Has society changed so much?
Has the heart of man become cold, or has it always been as such?
How many of the people were like unto Moses?
Is it not man that asked for a king?
Who among you feels continuous sorrow for mankind?

Job
Chapter 40


1Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,

2Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

3Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

4Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

5Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

6Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

7Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

8Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

10Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

11Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

12Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

13Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

14Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

15Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. continued
 
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quoted "The first great Baptist distinctive is that the Bible is our only rule for faith and practice. What gives us the right to change the words of scripture because it does not fit our tradition?"
 
A lot of threads I could post this in but it might be useful placed in this one.
Anyway, I found it helpful from a getting yourself grounded sort of sense.
 
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Thank you.