[INFJ] - Manipulation | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

[INFJ] Manipulation

Are INFJs manipulative?

  • Kinda

    Votes: 12 70.6%
  • Not really

    Votes: 5 29.4%

  • Total voters
    17
Wow, I had a similar situation. I was pulling into the neighborhood which I then took an immediate Right with no stop sign for me but the Left and Right had Stops. I made this route hundreds of times without stopping or hestitating to check traffic from the Left or Right. This particular night something screamed out in my head "STOP!" and I did. Immediately (1-2 seconds) A car flew thru that intersection going at least 80 mph down my winding street. It would have hit me right in the drivers side door. I drove a little Toyota p/u at the time and would have died 100%. Also my daughters mother was in the passenger seat. This was before she became pregnant. It is really hard to put into words what this intuition feels like, but it is a familiar feeling once you notice and acknowledge it as a real phenomena. Thanks for sharing that and Yes we are being watched over. :)
I've never actually been in any dangerous situation, or felt anything I could call a "warning". Is the intuition easy to miss if you don't know what it's like?
 
I've never actually been in any dangerous situation, or felt anything I could call a "warning". Is the intuition easy to miss if you don't know what it's like?
Man its like a overshadowing Gut feeling. A Screaming Out inside your Soul as opposed to actually hearing it you Feel it like an Overpowering Thought that you cant stop thinking. I hope this makes sense its hard to put into words. Have you ever had a situation that you felt inside the need to not do, but you ended up doing it anyway and then thought to yourself afterwards. "Man, I knew I shouldn't have done that. Something was telling me not too." If you have then "That" is what I'm referring to. I dont mean pondering a decision either, this happens spontaneously and out of the blue. Like a Fire Alarm. Many times the consequences are not life and death and its not a daily occurrence. Not sure about the timing either, but its important enough for the other side to step in.
 
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Man its like a overshadowing Gut feeling. A Screaming Out inside your Soul as opposed to actually hearing it you Feel it like an Overpowering Thought that you cant stop thinking. I hope this makes sense its hard to put into words. Have you ever had a situation that you felt inside the need to not do, but you ended up doing it anyway and then thought to yourself afterwards. "Man, I knew I shouldn't have done that. Something was telling me not too." If you have then "That" is what I'm referring to. I dont mean pondering a decision either, this happens spontaneously and out of the blue. Like a Fire Alarm. Many times the consequences are not life and death and its not a daily occurrence. Not sure about the timing either, but its important enough for the other side to step in.
I'm not sure if I'm some minority all by myself here, but I've never thought "I knew I shouldn't have done that". I've never actually thought "I shouldn't have done that" or "I should have done that" either.
 
I'm not sure if I'm some minority all by myself here, but I've never thought "I knew I shouldn't have done that". I've never actually thought "I shouldn't have done that" or "I should have done that" either.

"I do not believe in manipulation, although I do look for the perfect words. I want to tell people the truth, and I want them to actually hear it."

You might be another type too? Maybe an INTP. Its common to mistype until you really look at the details. I would venture to say that INFJs understand inside what I described as a clear and undeniable part of their reality. Being INFJ has as many if not more downsides as ups. Isolation and feeling alone in this world being at the front... for me at least.
 
You might be another type too? Maybe an INTP. Its common to mistype until you really look at the details. I would venture to say that INFJs understand inside what I described as a clear and undeniable part of their reality. Being INFJ has as many if not more downsides as ups. Isolation and feeling alone in this world being at the front... for me at least.
I've never really experienced loneliness, although I have felt it sometimes. I think I am part of the whole and thus never separated, and my emotional experience of extreme affective empathy only serves to strengthen this unity. However, I can also accept that this is all in my head, and that my death ending my world speaks of how alone this body of mine is. All feeling of connection - or lack of it - says nothing of reality, and the physical world remains the same unemotional playground that it is for the psychopath naturally lacking this connection.
 
Manipulation is violence.

Only, it’s the violence of the weak, masked and unseen. Its effectiveness depends upon deception, robbing its victim of those most sacred of rights: human agency, free will, choice.

In Kantian terms, human beings are ‘ends in themselves’, and their right to make free and informed choices over their lives is paramount in maintaining this. The only way of ethically ‘influencing’ them under this schema, therefore, is to supply them with facts, with evidence, with truths; to raise the level of ‘truth’ they’re able to utilise in making those free and informed choices.

In other words, what you’re attempting to do is not ‘influence’ them at all but rather to grant them ever greater personal sovereignty, such that, if one is confident of the inherent ‘rightness’ or ‘correctness’ of one’s own choices, it would be hoped that those choices would be made by others too if only they had access to sufficient ‘truth’.

The alternative condition – of manipulation – is utilised either by those who understand that their goals are to the detriment of their subjects, or those who believe that ‘manipulation’ might simply expedite a choice which would have been made under the ‘personal sovereignty’ condition as described above, if only given enough time.

However, this assumes that the immediate ‘goal’ or objective is superior to any higher value like ‘human beings are ends in themselves’, and its use is thus only advocated for by those who do not understand either why or how to operate within an internally accordant and consistent hierarchy of values, where each value is a goal in itself, the undermining of which compromises the integrity of the whole structure.

In this case, whatever immediate goals one is trying to achieve would be considered subordinate to the ‘higher principle’ of supporting the human sovereignty encoded within the subject’s capacity to make free, informed choices.

Of course, part of the difficulty of doing this is that people are not free of manipulation even if they are free of your manipulation – they are locked within webs of social influence and the calculus of self-interest within their current circumstances, among other pressures. Hence, part of the process of attempting to have an influence that is properly ‘righteous’ (and ‘righteous’ in a sort of technical rather than rhetorical sense) is in also attempting to unlock individuals from their dependence upon these pressures. This, however, is unfortunately very difficult for those ultimately marching with herd moralities fuelled by ressentiment, since those pressures represent their safety in the world, however corrupt or unethical they may be.

So no, if one maintains a functional hierarchy of values where the universal principle of ‘human sovereignty’ is superordinate to one’s immediate personal goals, then manipulation is never justified. However, if one does not have any such hierarchy of values (that is, if one is a psychopath, narcissist, &c.), or a hierarchy of values in which immediate personal goals are considered superordinate to any such consideration of ‘human sovereignty’, then it is justified. The answer in either direction is the output of a simple logical calculus resulting from whatever hierarchy of values is operant – lower values supervene upon higher ones in the functional moral agent, just as molecular properties supervene upon atomic properties in the physical laws of the universe.


Are INFJs inherently manipulative? The diplomatic, influence-seeking and, ironically, ‘manipulative’ answer is ‘no’, but the true answer is probably ‘yes’, since the function of Extroverted Feeling (Fe) is fundamentally concerned with having influence upon the world (as a judging function) by mobilising social forces. For instance, one will often find INFJs engaging in ad hominems – some more subtle than others – in an attempt to reduce the credibility of their subjects in the eyes of others. Their favourite strategy – and this seems to be quite universal – is to make claims against the social competence of their targets. They’ll call them retarded, or unhealthy, or mentally ill; they’ll say they need therapy or insinuate that they have character flaws which will make them unsuccessful with the opposite sex.

Their lack of a sense of righteousness forces them to engage with the world in a way in which ‘truth’ is not a consideration; that their immediate personal goals trump any ‘higher values’. Their lack of Fi means that they often do not even have a vision of any such hierarchy of values, leading to a general ‘ends justify the means’ approach to life, as has already been mentioned. That is, they are forced to resort to curses and hexes based upon some fictitious notion of their own ‘intuition’; an emblem of their own powerlessness to the same degree as the ancient crone was forced to rely upon the same strategies.
Some thoughts that occur to me ....

As I said in my earlier post, I think it's very important to keep a clear distinction between the process of influencing others and the morality of the specific circumstances in which this takes place. In fact logic itself is used extensively to influence others to change direction, in agreement with a logical argument, and this can also easily be misused morally by the way the initial assumptions are selected and presented, and by the completeness and validity of the way the case is made.

In the sort of situations you describe, you are basing your opinions on a particular set of values that are personal to yourself, with logical exposition placed on top of them. This is surely with the aim of influencing people to see and agree with your perspective? In fact with a weighty argument such as you are using, it's quite possible that there are people who aren't able to follow it lucidly and their response to your conclusions will be based mostly on your reputation as a clever and heavyweight thinker rather than on the detailed content of your argument - which again is a common form of influence and manipulation.

I don't mean this in a pejorative way. It seems to me that in almost all circumstances, people are subject to necessary influence by others, and it's based on a combination of thinking and feeling judgement. Life is just too short for every important thing in our lives to be analysed in logical depth by everyone, and only a few have the competence anyway to follow or carry out that sort of analysis. We all seek to be influenced in a useful way by all the various inputs around us, as quickly and as efficiently as possible - for instance I'm not interested in the epidemiological in depth logic behind how we tackle the COVID pandemic. I just want our scientific and political experts to get on with the job of dealing with it. And I want them to use the very best influencing skills to make sure that people at large conform to the policies they implement, knowing that logic by itself would be quite ineffective against far too many of us. That doesn't mean they have a blank cheque, but the best I can do is listen to competing views and critiques of policy - the protagonists of these are all using influencing skills rather than pure logic to get their perspectives across because life is too short to do otherwise, and very few of their audience would understand what the hell they were talking about.

It seems to me that the issue you raise about INFJs lacking coherent values is an interesting one. For a start it doesn't seem right to me to identify explicitly any of the functions, including Fi, with moral high and low ground. Anyone of any type can be a saint or a sinner, and I doubt whether this is type dependent.

Human values do in fact conflict with each other - the sort of issue you have identified is classic, where personal values and group values often come into conflict. Any one individual can't possibly adhere to them all easily so they select the ones that they pin their colours to. The type differences bias INTJs towards personal and INFJs towards group values, both held very strongly. I think it's inevitable that each type will be sensitive to the apparent violations of the other type against their preferred value set - but this dichotomy isn't a fault but a feature of each type and you might as well blame a cat for catching birds, or a dog for chasing rabbits. In other words it just has to be lived with. Now that's not the same as condoning behaviours that most people would agree are wrong, but it does mean that there are effective and ineffective ways of identifying and tackling generally agreed faults, a problem which will be amplified in a group dominated by a particular type.
 
@John K I think you make some excellent points, but I did have some responses I was thinking about.

However, the well's been poisoned right now, so I'll respond to you privately, if that's OK. I don't want to be dragged into any ingroup/outgroup agendas.
 
@John K I think you make some excellent points, but I did have some responses I was thinking about.

However, the well's been poisoned right now, so I'll respond to you privately, if that's OK. I don't want to be dragged into any ingroup/outgroup agendas.
By all means Hos.
 
Manipulation is violence.

Only, it’s the violence of the weak, masked and unseen. Its effectiveness depends upon deception, robbing its victim of those most sacred of rights: human agency, free will, choice.

In Kantian terms, human beings are ‘ends in themselves’, and their right to make free and informed choices over their lives is paramount in maintaining this. The only way of ethically ‘influencing’ them under this schema, therefore, is to supply them with facts, with evidence, with truths; to raise the level of ‘truth’ they’re able to utilise in making those free and informed choices.

In other words, what you’re attempting to do is not ‘influence’ them at all but rather to grant them ever greater personal sovereignty, such that, if one is confident of the inherent ‘rightness’ or ‘correctness’ of one’s own choices, it would be hoped that those choices would be made by others too if only they had access to sufficient ‘truth’.

The alternative condition – of manipulation – is utilised either by those who understand that their goals are to the detriment of their subjects, or those who believe that ‘manipulation’ might simply expedite a choice which would have been made under the ‘personal sovereignty’ condition as described above, if only given enough time.

However, this assumes that the immediate ‘goal’ or objective is superior to any higher value like ‘human beings are ends in themselves’, and its use is thus only advocated for by those who do not understand either why or how to operate within an internally accordant and consistent hierarchy of values, where each value is a goal in itself, the undermining of which compromises the integrity of the whole structure.

In this case, whatever immediate goals one is trying to achieve would be considered subordinate to the ‘higher principle’ of supporting the human sovereignty encoded within the subject’s capacity to make free, informed choices.

Of course, part of the difficulty of doing this is that people are not free of manipulation even if they are free of your manipulation – they are locked within webs of social influence and the calculus of self-interest within their current circumstances, among other pressures. Hence, part of the process of attempting to have an influence that is properly ‘righteous’ (and ‘righteous’ in a sort of technical rather than rhetorical sense) is in also attempting to unlock individuals from their dependence upon these pressures. This, however, is unfortunately very difficult for those ultimately marching with herd moralities fuelled by ressentiment, since those pressures represent their safety in the world, however corrupt or unethical they may be.

So no, if one maintains a functional hierarchy of values where the universal principle of ‘human sovereignty’ is superordinate to one’s immediate personal goals, then manipulation is never justified. However, if one does not have any such hierarchy of values (that is, if one is a psychopath, narcissist, &c.), or a hierarchy of values in which immediate personal goals are considered superordinate to any such consideration of ‘human sovereignty’, then it is justified. The answer in either direction is the output of a simple logical calculus resulting from whatever hierarchy of values is operant – lower values supervene upon higher ones in the functional moral agent, just as molecular properties supervene upon atomic properties in the physical laws of the universe.


Are INFJs inherently manipulative? The diplomatic, influence-seeking and, ironically, ‘manipulative’ answer is ‘no’, but the true answer is probably ‘yes’, since the function of Extroverted Feeling (Fe) is fundamentally concerned with having influence upon the world (as a judging function) by mobilising social forces. For instance, one will often find INFJs engaging in ad hominems – some more subtle than others – in an attempt to reduce the credibility of their subjects in the eyes of others. Their favourite strategy – and this seems to be quite universal – is to make claims against the social competence of their targets. They’ll call them retarded, or unhealthy, or mentally ill; they’ll say they need therapy or insinuate that they have character flaws which will make them unsuccessful with the opposite sex.

Their lack of a sense of righteousness forces them to engage with the world in a way in which ‘truth’ is not a consideration; that their immediate personal goals trump any ‘higher values’. Their lack of Fi means that they often do not even have a vision of any such hierarchy of values, leading to a general ‘ends justify the means’ approach to life, as has already been mentioned. That is, they are forced to resort to curses and hexes based upon some fictitious notion of their own ‘intuition’; an emblem of their own powerlessness to the same degree as the ancient crone was forced to rely upon the same strategies.
Very well said. My father is an immature INFJ lacking in self-understanding and healthy ways of managing extreme affective empathy, and every time we argue, he has absolutely no candor or rational thinking - only ad hominem. It's sad to see that some people would disagree with this, when except for maybe some details I haven't paid attention to, this would all seem correct. The most disappointing thing, is that for an INFJ with an extreme affective empathy, it makes even less sense to be so lacking in candor and respect for whomever they argue with. It is simply pure stupid, although I understand the conditions under which it might not seem stupid (and so I seek to give other INFJs the psychobiological truth to help them operate optimally!). Of course, not every INFJ operates in such manner, but it would seem most common. And of course, I might be that INTP (albeit an empath as well), so who knows if I should be trusted in understanding myself or those similar to me as INFJs. I kinda just trusted my intuition when I chose my type, since INFJs seem the most familiar and similar people to me. As far as I understand, INTPs would be more meticulous and doubtful.

What every single person should do: separate feeling and thinking. Do not throw insults when angry. Think rationally, and feel as crazily as you do - with no suppression. If you try to starve either part, they are going to send their best agents to infiltrate the other one's government, in order to start a revolution: feeling will think, and thinking will feel. Feeling and thinking are their own countries, but they should have peaceful relations. There is no autarky for either. And remember that both thinking and feeling are merely subvassals of the body.
 
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What every single person should do: separate feeling and thinking. Do not throw insults when angry. Think rationally, and feel as crazily as you do - with no suppression. If you try to starve either part, they are going to send their best agents to infiltrate the other one's government, in order to start a revolution: feeling will think, and thinking will feel. Feeling and thinking are their own countries, but they should have peaceful relations. There is no autarky for either. And remember that both thinking and feeling are merely subvassals of the body.
This is similar to a point I made in my own blog. :)
 
I think Fe may provide a sort of requisite understanding for emotional manipulation, i.e. getting someone to do what you want because of how they feel about something. I think people that easily or involuntarily absorb others' feelings tend to become Fe types because they are compelled to navigate things based on others' feelings... These feelings affect them too much to simply disregard them.

That being said, I think your average INFJ would not overtly be interested in emotional manipulation unless the end result is a more harmonious outcome for the majority. I also think repressing emotion might be an asset to this sort of manipulation to avoid excessive guilt and responsibility, so I could believe low Fe types such as INTPs may be prone to emotional manipulation, perhaps similarly to how they can be passive aggressive AF. I know few INTPs that will admit to truly feeling bad about this kind of behavior.
 
I think Fe may provide a sort of requisite understanding for emotional manipulation, i.e. getting someone to do what you want because of how they feel about something. I think people that easily or involuntarily absorb others' feelings tend to become Fe types because they are compelled to navigate things based on others' feelings... These feelings affect them too much to simply disregard them.

That being said, I think your average INFJ would not overtly be interested in emotional manipulation unless the end result is a more harmonious outcome for the majority. I also think repressing emotion might be an asset to this sort of manipulation to avoid excessive guilt and responsibility, so I could believe low Fe types such as INTPs may be prone to emotional manipulation, perhaps similarly to how they can be passive aggressive AF. I know few INTPs that will admit to truly feeling bad about this kind of behavior.
Yes, this is accurate. The emotional sponge element is really heavy and hard to handle so we are swift to try to help someone else in pain also for this reason... Especially when trapped in the same house or room with them. *brandishes holy water*
 
I think Fe may provide a sort of requisite understanding for emotional manipulation, i.e. getting someone to do what you want because of how they feel about something. I think people that easily or involuntarily absorb others' feelings tend to become Fe types because they are compelled to navigate things based on others' feelings... These feelings affect them too much to simply disregard them.

That being said, I think your average INFJ would not overtly be interested in emotional manipulation unless the end result is a more harmonious outcome for the majority. I also think repressing emotion might be an asset to this sort of manipulation to avoid excessive guilt and responsibility, so I could believe low Fe types such as INTPs may be prone to emotional manipulation, perhaps similarly to how they can be passive aggressive AF. I know few INTPs that will admit to truly feeling bad about this kind of behavior.
I agree. In fact I think that healthy INFJs are more likely to be the ones who spot and call out a subtle attempt by someone to manipulate others in a bad way.

Just playing about a bit with where this goes though ...
It's maybe worth illustrating things by looking at formalised examples of where manipulation is used. I think INFJs can be drawn to careers where it's a positive tool and used 'surgically', such as in counselling where you need to bypass a patient's conscious ego to try and help them change things buried in their unconscious. Marketing and advertising are other careers that use manipulation techniques extensively, but can straddle the boundary of what is ethical - I suspect INFJs would find careers in those areas too inauthentic and they probably appeal more to extraverts and introverted thinkers. I'm sure that some INFJs are drawn to writing fiction or creating art or music or poetry, and these use manipulation techniques (among others of course) in order to create an emotional effect, but one that's held safely within the framework of the fictional world of the work - it could well be that other types, such as INFPs, are the true masters in those spheres however.
 
I guess I can be manipulative when I'm put in a defensive mode. But my manipulation is probably just how I make others feel about themselves with my words.
99.999999999% of the time, I don't gather tactics to manipulate on purpose. I just don't.
But since I guess I do have the skill, I would certainly employ it if I was trying to gather funds for a cause. So i guess manipulation is okay in some cases.
 
It has been said before that INFJs have a tendency to be manipulative. I think I have manipulated people in the past without realizing it at the time. Probably even more than I realize now.

Do you think INFJs are manipulative? Have you ever been accidentally or purposefully manipulative? Have you been manipulated by an INFJ?

I am sure I have manipulated people in different ways, both harmless and harmfully. I'm not sure if this example is truly considered manipulation but it's within the same realm. I was in a verbal argument with coworkers after work one night. What started out as drunken banter quickly got heated. My boss who I had a squabble with was really trying to hurt me with his words, and he was on the brink of wanting to use his fists. I knew this at the time and decided to see how far he would go if I threw words at him that hit deeper. For my own drunken entertainment I guess. We were throwing insults at each other but when I pulled out something that hurt him personally he had nothing but shock and anger. By-standing coworkers were able to stop us then. Knowing someone well gives you an advantage in situations like these.

INFJs have an easy time understanding others. That plus intuition makes it easy to adjust yourself to adhere to certain people/circumstances to reach an end goal. We know what people like and dislike and we can tell them what they may or may not want to hear. I'm not saying this is good, but I think it can probably be used with good intentions.

Someone once told me they were attracted to my "talent for manipulating people with words." Really still not sure what to think about that, and to be honest it's a little bothersome. If I'm truly that manipulative then I don't want to be.

It depends on who you ask, though all INFJs is casting a wide net.
Perhaps adroit is a word many would feel more 'comfortable' with.
 
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I've been thinking about this topic a little more and I will say that I do manipulate, but not in a forceful way. For instance, as an artist and creative type I like to create an "effect". This involves manipulating the mood or feelings around me, or to dramatically emphasize the lack of feeling, such as making something very unfeeling to contrast it with the feeling. Some people create a story or work of art because it is reflecting something specific about them. While this is true for myself(as a human being you can't avoid doing this to some extent), I am more concerned with the effect, how it will make people think or feel. When I tell a scary story, I want people to experience that feeling of fear or dread. It is the atmosphere that is important. When I reveal my positive emotions with someone, I want to frame it in a way so that they believe it. It is like painting a picture with words. When I use romantic language when expressing my love for someone, it is undoubtfully trying to influence their feeling as well as self-expression. This may be seen as "manipulation" by some, but it would only be manipulation to me if I were trying to use someone against their own free will, which I think is very wrong to do.
 
Though anyone is capable of this behavior regardless of their mbti, it seems like manipulation is a strong word here. It always carries a negative connotation. If what is said is for the purpose of some sort of justice, perhaps that's not the best word. I'm an INFJ and it kinda blows to have that as a major stereotype lol. In the case with your boss it seems like you were trying to cleverly hand back what you felt he was giving to you. Perhaps to get him to understand how his words made you feel. If that was the case clearly he didn't get it considering his reaction, but personally it doesn't seem like manipulation. Besides, at least you admit to the fact you may have been manipulative, and you don't want to be. If you didn't care that would probably be more concerning lol.