INTJ with Disconnected INFJ Wife

[Bubs]

I am an INTJ male in my 30s, married for over 13 years to an INFJ, also in her 30s. We have 4 kids (just had #4 a few months ago). We’ve been mostly fin our married life, although we overcame a few rough patches in the first 4 years. Things had been fine for a long while.

Then, about 18 months ago, she ca,e to me asking for basically a complete change in our entire dynamic. She had always been the “take charge” type, making plans, doing this or that, scheduling everyone, etc. She asked me to “take control” and “step up” because she “didn’t want to be in control” anymore (everything in quotes are her words, FWIW). She also asked for some other specific things, like helping her eat better, helping her in her spiritual life, helping curb her smoking (she quit permanently once pregnant), “protect her from herself,” “be a leader,” and other things. She also started working out of the house, and stopped doing all cooking, laundry, cleaning, and homeschooling the kids – that all fell on me while all this was going on. She said she was “handing it over to me.” I was pretty much content to stay in the background most of the time anyway, so these request all seemed very daunting for me, especially coming at me at once.

Well, it didn’t work out so well. I did my best, but fell woefully short. I was very overwhelmed by this new-found sense of basically doing everything I had never done before. I interpreted this as her asking me to be something I had no experience with or knowledge of. I felt like it was supposed to be an overnight switch sort of thing, and she kind of went along with that. After a few weeks, this went downhill really fast. I was struggling mightily with trying to figure out what to do in basically any circumstance now, since I was supposed to now take the lead rather than follow her cues.

So, long story short, I didn’t do most of what she asked for. I either tried and failed, gave up, or most commonly, didn’t understand and did the wrong thing. This led to some nasty, nasty fights. She would scream at me with a fire in her eyes I had never seen before. She threw things at me. Taunted me. Called me every name in the book. Wouldn’t talk to me for days, then would erupt over something (IMO) insignificant. It was ugly. I dug deep and apologized for everything in which I could be remotely blamed for, numerous times. I have taken responsibility for basically all of it.

This went on for a while. We both got sick of fighting, and things cooled off, but there was a constant tension. I could feel it, even though I didn’t understand it a bit. The she got pregnant, and we reconnected over that. The pregnancy got scary (hospitalization, emergency surgery, and a NICU stay), and we bonded even more. Or so I thought.

Now, we’re at the point where she feels like we don’t have an emotional connection at all. I don’t understand this. We talk, I share, we spend time together, but she says we’re not connected and she hasn’t felt it for a while. She’s also said other things, at different times, that paint a more complete picture of where we are:

“You never hear me, so why bother talking?”

“I don’t trust you with my feelings.”

“My walls are up now, and I don’t know how to take them down.”

“I gave you a gift and you gave it back to me.”

“I don’t know how to get our connection back.”

Truth is, I have no idea what most of these things^ mean. I try to ask her to explain but she gets frustrated and won’t tell me. She says “we’ve had this conversation so many times, I just can’t do it anymore.” I would understand that better if she actually gave me something to go on. She speaks in these vague, emotionally generalized terms that simply do not register with my rational brain.

So, I come to you INFJs humbly asking for help and advice: What does she mean by all of this? What is she thinking? What can I say or do that will actually make a difference? Is this permanent? Help me understand, because I am beyond confused and totally out of my depth here.

 

[Stu]

You need to prove to her that you are trying to understand her. You need to accept that you don't understand her.
my recommendation is for you to start seeing a psychotherapist once a week and verify that you are connected with your own emotions. She should also do therapy, but don't do couples therapy unless you each have a few months of individual.

 

[Eventhorizon]

As an intj I want to interject a couple of thoughts here. First it' sounds bad enough to where you might want to consider outside help. I wouldn't know how best to persue that but it sounds as if at the least good communication is not happening for whatever reason.
The second idea is that people change with time. Not because they necessarily want to but just because time does that. My thought is that people do well when they find ways they can grow together. Not that you will or can in all ways but there should be a few. Of course kids make it more difficult to persue those things together.
Have you ever asked her what brought on the change? I mean it sounds like she dumped a lot on your plate but let's be honest if it was that much, she apparently had already been doing those things. If it's overwhelming for you, how did she feel about it before she dumped it on you?
No answers here sorry. Just thoughts and ideas.

 

[kfg(atj]

Wow - first of all - *hugs*

My husband could have written this about me. Your wife sounds so much like me. Even saying things that I have also said, word for word. With that said, this is most likely stress induced and creating an unhealthy INFJ complex.

Four kids, homeschooling and maintaining a house are all probably draining her. And she probably neglects to see that she has caused it herself by wanting to be in control. She's taken on too much. We do that sometimes. We use our Ni and Fe to see what others need and will usually act accordingly without being prompted to do so. But then we can become frustrated when that same behavior is not reciprocated. We hate having to try to constantly communicate our needs while we're able to easily see others. We can also become overly idealistic about creating the perfect scenarios in our lives and for our loved ones.

Your wife is looking for a life line. She got herself into deep waters trying to hold everyone else afloat and is now drowning. She needs you to be more assertive and take some of that control away from her. Even respectfully putting her in her place and confronting her inconsistencies will cause her to respect you. She is most likely subconsciously testing you in this way when she lashes out erratically. It can be overwhelming to always feel like you have to lead. Especially for women sometimes. I think we need the occasional submissiveness to still feel feminine.

You should consider occasional childcare to give you both a break. She needs an emotional resuscitation and working outside of the house now means she's probably in desperation mode trying to find another person or situation where she feels understood. This can potentially be dangerous for your marriage if the right man comes along and tells her what she needs to hear. You sound like a committed spouse, so I hope that doesn't happen to you.

She really could use a friend. Another female INFJ. That's why I turned to this site. To feel understood by people who get it because we often don't meet other INFJs in our real lives. I have one child and I couldn't imagine juggling the things she has. If you'd like to, I would gladly connect with her for support. If she is open to that. You can have her contact me via message.

Good luck!

 

[Bubs]

Thanks for the quick replies!

Stu -- yes, I am trying to understand her. Very much. I just have so much trouble seeing past the words that are said to what she really means by them. My guess is that is why she says she's never heard. How can I start doing that?

Eventhorizon -- yes, she was very stressed out. The move itself took a lot, and before that she was dealing with some adrenal fatigue issues for a while. We worked through much of that together. But in retrospect, I think that it may have been reignited, even if she didn't know it. Maybe it is because we drifted so far, so fast that she has trouble seeing the future. Thanks for that insight.

selcouth -- THANK YOU. This helps. I think it is stress, now that I think about it. I should have mentioned she quit work during the pregnancy, and I've taken on a second job instead to pay some debt and medical bills. She is just focused on the baby right now. I guess I do have a hard time seeing her needs, but she is good at identifying mine and the kids's. Romantic issues at work were never an issue - we are both very, very committed to each other. She did have an outside friend she made right before we went through all of that, who ended up being a manipulative liar and who was totally door-slammed around Thanksgiving last year.

BTW, outside counseling is out of the picture for the foreseeable future. I have neither the money or time at the moment.

Overall, is there anything I can say to her, or do, to get things moving in the right direction again?

 

[Stu]

insurance cover therapy, you'd be looking a at a $10-$30 copay

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2153780.Hold_Me_Tight

 

[kfg(atj]

Thanks for the quick replies!

Stu -- yes, I am trying to understand her. Very much. I just have so much trouble seeing past the words that are said to what she really means by them. My guess is that is why she says she's never heard. How can I start doing that?

Eventhorizon -- yes, she was very stressed out. The move itself took a lot, and before that she was dealing with some adrenal fatigue issues for a while. We worked through much of that together. But in retrospect, I think that it may have been reignited, even if she didn't know it. Maybe it is because we drifted so far, so fast that she has trouble seeing the future. Thanks for that insight.

selcouth -- THANK YOU. This helps. I think it is stress, now that I think about it. I should have mentioned she quit work during the pregnancy, and I've taken on a second job instead to pay some debt and medical bills. She is just focused on the baby right now. I guess I do have a hard time seeing her needs, but she is good at identifying mine and the kids's. Romantic issues at work were never an issue - we are both very, very committed to each other. She did have an outside friend she made right before we went through all of that, who ended up being a manipulative liar and who was totally door-slammed around Thanksgiving last year.

BTW, outside counseling is out of the picture for the foreseeable future. I have neither the money or time at the moment.

Overall, is there anything I can say to her, or do, to get things moving in the right direction again?

Since money is tight, do you guys have access to family that can help with occasional childcare? Also, there are MOMS Club chapters around the country (MOMS= moms offering moms support) that she could look into and connect with other moms and new baby. Not sure if she's interested, but also joining a family friendly yoga studio could be great. Could take kids along for classes and she herself could get a meditative workout in. These are just some of the things I've done for self care.

 

[Bubs]

insurance cover therapy, you'd be looking a at a $10-$30 copay

Ha ha, no insurance in our family. We do a Medi-Share approach.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2153780.Hold_Me_Tight

Looks good, thanks for the rec.

Since money is tight, do you guys have access to family that can help with occasional childcare? Also, there are MOMS Club chapters around the country (MOMS= moms offering moms support) that she could look into and connect with other moms and new baby. Not sure if she's interested, but also joining a family friendly yoga studio could be great. Could take kids along for classes and she herself could get a meditative workout in. These are just some of the things I've done for self care.

Good ideas, but none that will fly. Family is too far. We do have a great network of friends, but we all have kids and equally busy lives. We also live in the country, 45 minutes away from basically everything. I do take the kids with me to ballgames, events, and stuff, so she gets a lot of alone time (well, with the baby). Yoga classes and moms group are out. She'd never go - past bad experiences.

--

So basically, she needs to de-stress, and I need to get in touch with my emotions and figure out how to communicate better?

What does "emotional walls" mean?
What does she mean when she says i "gave a gift back" to her?

 

[Bubs]

She needs you to be more assertive and take some of that control away from her. Even respectfully putting her in her place and confronting her inconsistencies will cause her to respect you. She is most likely subconsciously testing you in this way when she lashes out erratically. It can be overwhelming to always feel like you have to lead. Especially for women sometimes. I think we need the occasional submissiveness to still feel feminine.

BTW, this was one of those things she asked for that she feels I never delivered. She had wanted me to "take charge" and "be a man." She was looking to be more submissive, in general, to help alleviate some of those stresses. It didn't work out, despite my efforts. Seems I did the wrong things too many times and lost faith.

Thanks for the info on "testing." I did come across that earlier this week. I will focus more on passing those tests when they surface.

 

[kfg(atj]

Did she put thought and time into a gift that you returned? Also, I think "getting in touch with my emotions" is easier said than done for someone who is a logician. Emotionally, she's spent on a new baby and the needs of the other children. I would advise you to be more assertive and not letting her take control of things. For instance, if she says she's craving a hamburger but has expressed wanting you to hold her accountable, then offer something healthier and remind her that you're doing what she asked of you. Its important for you to be assertive and confident because that will make her feel like she doesn't have to be in control so much. That she can trust you to do things on your own. If she complains about the job you're doing - reiterate to her that you are doing what she asked. If it's not up to par, then sorry, but you're one person and you're doing the best you can.

I'm just advising you to take the measures I wish my husband would take. When he puts me in my place, I respect him more. Because I can be emotionally all over the place. But he rarely shows that side.

 

[Bubs]

Did she put thought and time into a gift that you returned?

No, nothing like that. Not a physical gift, like a present. I think this has to do with something emotional. I really don't know. She refuses to go into detail about it anymore.

Also, I think "getting in touch with my emotions" is easier said than done for someone who is a logician. Emotionally, she's spent on a new baby and the needs of the other children. I would advise you to be more assertive and not letting her take control of things. For instance, if she says she's craving a hamburger but has expressed wanting you to hold her accountable, then offer something healthier and remind her that you're doing what she asked of you. Its important for you to be assertive and confident because that will make her feel like she doesn't have to be in control so much. That she can trust you to do things on your own. If she complains about the job you're doing - reiterate to her that you are doing what she asked. If it's not up to par, then sorry, but you're one person and you're doing the best you can.

I'm just advising you to take the measures I wish my husband would take. When he puts me in my place, I respect him more. Because I can be emotionally all over the place. But he rarely shows that side.

Yes, this is what I'm focusing on now. Her emotional reactions are very strong and intense, and she can swing the mood of an entire building in seconds. I succumb to it frequently. I'm actively working on staying level through and not letting her emotions affect my thinking and my judgement. Also, I'm working on active listening techniques at the moment.

 

[kfg(atj]

No, nothing like that. Not a physical gift, like a present. I think this has to do with something emotional. I really don't know. She refuses to go into detail about it anymore.



Yes, this is what I'm focusing on now. Her emotional reactions are very strong and intense, and she can swing the mood of an entire building in seconds. I succumb to it frequently. I'm actively working on staying level through and not letting her emotions affect my thinking and my judgement. Also, I'm working on active listening techniques at the moment.

Could she be talking about your children? Birthing them, raising them, teaching them...maybe feels as though she's been the overly dominant parent? That's the only thing I could think of since she's being vague.

 

[Bubs]

Could she be talking about your children? Birthing them, raising them, teaching them...maybe feels as though she's been the overly dominant parent? That's the only thing I could think of since she's being vague.

No, the kids are the one thing she agrees that we do a fine job together on. I think it's more along the "take charge, take control, be a man, save her from herself" emotional train. She does feel like she "has to be in control again" now though. Her prevailing sentiment is that I either can't, won't, or both. I'm craving some insight to that and any of the statement in my OP....

Like i said, though, I have acknowledged where I've failed and vowed to do better, asked for what she needs, but I think she was too far gone at that point because she won't say. She thinks i am "obtuse" and "idiodic," and just will not go there.

I just need something to go on, something to build on, something to do that'll actually get through to her. I'm at my wits end, but am never giving up.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

What does she mean when she says i "gave a gift back" to her

She gave you her self. Her hopes and dreams. Her needs, fears and love. She presented her self to you as a fragile infant trusting you would and could take care of her, nurture your relationship, and grow in love. She feels emotionally disconnected meaning she somehow feels rejected, abandoned. Somehow, you let her down. She feels you didn't fully accept her gift of her self to you.

Below the surface of her rage is a woman desperately needing love, understanding and connection with her husband.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[James]

I am an INTJ male in my 30s, married for over 13 years to an INFJ, also in her 30s. We have 4 kids (just had #4 a few months ago). We’ve been mostly fin our married life, although we overcame a few rough patches in the first 4 years. Things had been fine for a long while.

Then, about 18 months ago, she ca,e to me asking for basically a complete change in our entire dynamic. She had always been the “take charge” type, making plans, doing this or that, scheduling everyone, etc. She asked me to “take control” and “step up” because she “didn’t want to be in control” anymore (everything in quotes are her words, FWIW). She also asked for some other specific things, like helping her eat better, helping her in her spiritual life, helping curb her smoking (she quit permanently once pregnant), “protect her from herself,” “be a leader,” and other things. She also started working out of the house, and stopped doing all cooking, laundry, cleaning, and homeschooling the kids – that all fell on me while all this was going on. She said she was “handing it over to me.” I was pretty much content to stay in the background most of the time anyway, so these request all seemed very daunting for me, especially coming at me at once.

Well, it didn’t work out so well. I did my best, but fell woefully short. I was very overwhelmed by this new-found sense of basically doing everything I had never done before. I interpreted this as her asking me to be something I had no experience with or knowledge of. I felt like it was supposed to be an overnight switch sort of thing, and she kind of went along with that. After a few weeks, this went downhill really fast. I was struggling mightily with trying to figure out what to do in basically any circumstance now, since I was supposed to now take the lead rather than follow her cues.

So, long story short, I didn’t do most of what she asked for. I either tried and failed, gave up, or most commonly, didn’t understand and did the wrong thing. This led to some nasty, nasty fights. She would scream at me with a fire in her eyes I had never seen before. She threw things at me. Taunted me. Called me every name in the book. Wouldn’t talk to me for days, then would erupt over something (IMO) insignificant. It was ugly. I dug deep and apologized for everything in which I could be remotely blamed for, numerous times. I have taken responsibility for basically all of it.

This went on for a while. We both got sick of fighting, and things cooled off, but there was a constant tension. I could feel it, even though I didn’t understand it a bit. The she got pregnant, and we reconnected over that. The pregnancy got scary (hospitalization, emergency surgery, and a NICU stay), and we bonded even more. Or so I thought.

Now, we’re at the point where she feels like we don’t have an emotional connection at all. I don’t understand this. We talk, I share, we spend time together, but she says we’re not connected and she hasn’t felt it for a while. She’s also said other things, at different times, that paint a more complete picture of where we are:

“You never hear me, so why bother talking?”

“I don’t trust you with my feelings.”

“My walls are up now, and I don’t know how to take them down.”

“I gave you a gift and you gave it back to me.”

“I don’t know how to get our connection back.”

Truth is, I have no idea what most of these things^ mean. I try to ask her to explain but she gets frustrated and won’t tell me. She says “we’ve had this conversation so many times, I just can’t do it anymore.” I would understand that better if she actually gave me something to go on. She speaks in these vague, emotionally generalized terms that simply do not register with my rational brain.

So, I come to you INFJs humbly asking for help and advice: What does she mean by all of this? What is she thinking? What can I say or do that will actually make a difference? Is this permanent? Help me understand, because I am beyond confused and totally out of my depth here.

1) don't beat yourself up too much.
2) having kids and raising them is VERY tough
3) difficulties after having children is the norm.

Try to take every practical step you can to lower the stress for BOTH of you. Show your partner you care and appreciate her. Has she maybe reached "burnout" ? Try to make sure you do all you can to support her without reaching it yourself.

Be as kind and caring as you can. Try to reduce your bills and lower your work load, if possible. However difficult talk to your parents for support if you can. If it was my grand children, I'd want to help.

Take care and best wishes to both of you.

 

[kfg(atj]

She does feel like she "has to be in control again" now though. Her prevailing sentiment is that I either can't, won't, or both. I'm craving some insight to that and any of the statement in my OP....

I don't believe this is your issue but rather hers. When an INFJ is displaying unhealthy behaviors, we can become perfectionists, untrusting and aggressive in how we deal with others. I'm not sure how anyone else can address that other than to acknowledge their own behavior and seek to improve it. Again, I think this is stress induced. That seems to be my personal experience anyway. Keep searching for ways to help alleviate that stress and push her to be more forthcoming about what her specific needs are.

Also, has she had an issue with postpartum depression with any of your other children? It's very possible that PPD could be a culprit here. If she's having bouts of anxiety, frequent mood swings, persistent sadness, etc. it may be beneficial for her to speak with her doctor. PPD is very common and easily treatable. Even for breastfeeding mothers. Hope that helps!

 

[Bubs]

Thank you all for the replies. I really appreciate you guys taking the time out to respond in a helpful way.

She gave you her self. Her hopes and dreams. Her needs, fears and love. She presented her self to you as a fragile infant trusting you would and could take care of her, nurture your relationship, and grow in love. She feels emotionally disconnected meaning she somehow feels rejected, abandoned. Somehow, you let her down. She feels you didn't fully accept her gift of her self to you.

Below the surface of her rage is a woman desperately needing love, understanding and connection with her husband.

That's my take on it anyway.

Ya know, i think this is very close to what she means. Thank you for putting it in these words. It still seems very abstract and nebulous to me, but I can least start to wrap my head around this. I think the part I underlined is at the root of a LOT of our struggles right now. The added stress of everything else going on certainly isn't helping, because it's keeping her in a constant state of tension.

It's just so hard to find out what works anymore that makes her feel loved, understood, and connected. Reaching her in these ways, I think, is the key to turning this around.

She's an INFJ with love languages of quality time and acts of service - what can I do that will help her feel loved, understood, and connected?

 

[James]

Thank you all for the replies. I really appreciate you guys taking the time out to respond in a helpful way.



Ya know, i think this is very close to what she means. Thank you for putting it in these words. It still seems very abstract and nebulous to me, but I can least start to wrap my head around this. I think the part I underlined is at the root of a LOT of our struggles right now. The added stress of everything else going on certainly isn't helping, because it's keeping her in a constant state of tension.

It's just so hard to find out what works anymore that makes her feel loved, understood, and connected. Reaching her in these ways, I think, is the key to turning this around.

She's an INFJ with love languages of quality time and acts of service - what can I do that will help her feel loved, understood, and connected?

Do all you can to show her, you appreciate her, and all she does. Keep talking and trying to improve communication. Look for things that would help lower her stress levels, even little things. It's a cumulative thing. I think you love your wife, do everything you can to explicitly tell and show her that.

In relationships between a "T" type and "F" type communication can be an issue. Especially when an F type expects the T type person to know what they're feeling, which they don't easily do. Similarly if the T type dismisses the F type partners feelings as unimportant or "illogical".

I watched my brother do that many times, as to him he believed his wife's emotions were unjustified. I asked him to try to see her side of things. He didn't and she eventually left him.

I have to be honest, I'm somewhat troubled by the language she's used, that you quoted. To me that's something of a cop out on her part. Men don't "take charge" in a healthy relationship, because it's about being equal partners. Deciding things together, managing any disagreement fairly, equal responsibly not one partner dominating or "leading".

I wish you both the very best.

 

[MrSquared]

Bubs,

I’m sorry to hear that things have been so rough for you and your lady. I feel for you man. I’ll send you something later via PM which might just help, but until then:

“You never hear me, so why bother talking?”

Disassociate yourself from that myth – and reassure her that you do care and you do want to connect with her in that way.

“I don’t trust you with my feelings.”

Acknowledge her feelings, (by all means) let her feel them and ask her (at the right time) what you can do to help rebuild that level of trust.

“My walls are up now, and I don’t know how to take them down.”

Asking her probably won’t help here (because she seemingly doesn’t know herself). But certain acts of kindness, actively learning how to speak her love language and somehow showing her that you’re truly committed to both her and your mutual life together could be beneficial.

“I gave you a gift and you gave it back to me.”

In a kind and humble way. You could try and figure out which gift she was talking about. Why that matters to her. How she would prefer you handle all gifts moving forward. Share what things were like from your perspective (from naturally connective–not defensive–standpoint). And then from there…just do your best to adapt and move forward with her in mind.

“I don’t know how to get our connection back.”

Sounds like she’s lost and struggling for air (relationally speaking). That can be a scary thing when you’ve spent sooooo much time with another person. For whatever reason…she feels this way. But if you can figure out the why behind her actions (regardless of whoever is or isn't at fault), you might just be able to adapt better for everyone’s sake.

Wishing you well sir.