INTJ sniping.

[jupiterswoon]

My boyfriend loves posting political essays on facebook. Normally I am completely supportive because I love how passionate he is about politics, it's a big part of his history and identity and I think he has a lot of good points. However, he was particularly inspired by a Rolling Stone reporter who uses very colorful and flowery language. The problem is that whenever he posts these essays he has written it tends to alienate people that we are both friends with.

There are three main problems.

1) Although he spends a lot of time researching this and creating his arguments, he does not include any factual evidence- no statistics, no links, nothing to corroborate what he writes about. This is unfortunate because I know that he wants to be taken seriously, but it gives his pieces an air of standing on a soapbox.

2)He writes these hoping for discussion, but since he doesn't provide a thesis and antithesis, and doesn't have factual claims people can really only argue against the premise. He spends hours cultivating his logic for these pieces, and he ends up sniping all people who participate and actually disagree with his statements. This ends up alienating the people who do oblige to engage in a debate.

3) When I tried to bring this up to him and offer advice for improving his essays, in my hopes of not losing friends and helping him to reach a broader audience, he freaked out, deleted my comment, and sent me an email saying that if I'm not knowledgeable then I shouldn't even participate. I talk about politics with him for hours on end. I felt completely dismissed. And it hurt doubly so, because when he gives me advice or criticism I always try to take it seriously. Instead, he said that I don't know what I'm talking about and that he doesn't want to write an academic paper. I know that these essays are alienating some of our friends, and I am concerned that people will take him less seriously. He is really dedicated to this and it hurts me to see him being not taken seriously.

I think what hurt most was that he didn't respond to what I actually said, and instead picked apart all of my logic into little tidbits, totally dismissing the rest of what I said. I rarely criticize him, but this is something that is very important to me.

Is there any way that I can make him see my perspective. It feels like talking to a barricade.

 

[muir]

My boyfriend loves posting political essays on facebook. Normally I am completely supportive because I love how passionate he is about politics, it's a big part of his history and identity and I think he has a lot of good points. However, he was particularly inspired by a Rolling Stone reporter who uses very colorful and flowery language. The problem is that whenever he posts these essays he has written it tends to alienate people that we are both friends with.

Just out of curiosity was the reporter Matt Taibbi?

There are three main problems.

1) Although he spends a lot of time researching this and creating his arguments, he does not include any factual evidence- no statistics, no links, nothing to corroborate what he writes about. This is unfortunate because I know that he wants to be taken seriously, but it gives his pieces an air of standing on a soapbox.

We live in the 'information age' and we are now privy to information that our parents or grandparents just did not have access to

There are new revelations all the time wizzing around the internet. an entirely new alternative media has sprung up to act as a conduit to the information as the world shares this intangible gold that is now overflowing....very exciting times

But you're right....he needs to support what he is saying if he wants to be credible otherwise he is just another person posting an opinion online and will look like another person just posting an opinion

2)He writes these hoping for discussion, but since he doesn't provide a thesis and antithesis, and doesn't have factual claims people can really only argue against the premise. He spends hours cultivating his logic for these pieces, and he ends up sniping all people who participate and actually disagree with his statements. This ends up alienating the people who do oblige to engage in a debate.

I know a guy who i think is an INTJ. He debates a lot with his family about stuff. In the context of his family dynamic though it appears to be more of a battle of wills than an actual sharing of good information

If a person is not sharing good information then that is probably not their prime motivation

3) When I tried to bring this up to him and offer advice for improving his essays, in my hopes of not losing friends and helping him to reach a broader audience, he freaked out, deleted my comment,

If your comment was public then that would be the problem...the fragile male ego

Probably best to keep constructive criticism between yourselves to avoid anyone losing face

Men often feel they have to present a strong front to the world....like a wall they are building around themself againt a world they perceive as being competitive or cut throat. They want their partner to have their back

If you do anything to bring him down this may make him feel like his defences have been compromised

Its a shame that the current system makes people feel that insecure but if you think about it we live in a system that is built on competition....this inevitably leads to suspicion and competition....part of the reason i advocate for a change to a cooperation based system

and sent me an email saying that if I'm not knowledgeable then I shouldn't even participate.

Just defensive hot air....don't take it personally. Apologise for commenting publically, reassure him that such discussions will be private from now on and help him to get to a more secure place in his life where he doesn't feel like he needs to circle the wagons so much. There might be something stressing him out at the moment?

work perhaps?

I talk about politics with him for hours on end. I felt completely dismissed. And it hurt doubly so, because when he gives me advice or criticism I always try to take it seriously. Instead, he said that I don't know what I'm talking about and that he doesn't want to write an academic paper. I know that these essays are alienating some of our friends, and I am concerned that people will take him less seriously. He is really dedicated to this and it hurts me to see him being not taken seriously.

Give him your advice but do it in private

He migh be feeling isolated by his views enough as it is so he might need to feel like he has an ally in you

There is a knowledge gap at the moment in the world. The people at the top of society know whats going on because they are making all the plays. The rest of us are trying to piece together the puzzle from scraps and make sense of whats going on. people are all going around the internet swapping pieces of the puzzle to try and build a clearer picture

The incredible thing about the process is that we also see the process play out in the real world. Its exciting but also quite scary especially as there are some serious events going on....people are aware that something big is happening and this ramps up all the 'noise' out there on the internet

Does your partner have other interests to keep him grounded in reality and to take his mind off that stuff? Its absorbing but life needs to go on at the same time

I think what hurt most was that he didn't respond to what I actually said, and instead picked apart all of my logic into little tidbits, totally dismissing the rest of what I said. I rarely criticize him, but this is something that is very important to me.

Are you having a disagreement on a political issue? Ask him why he is so sure of his view...that way you can also see if there is substance to what he is saying

Is there any way that I can make him see my perspective. It feels like talking to a barricade.

Trust. get back inside his walls and don't compromise them. He is clearly in quite a defensive state for whatever reason (maybe stressed at work?) and is feeling like he needs to put the defenses up. if he feels that you are also trying to undermine him he will perceive you as part of the hostile world he is trying to protect against

A lot of people are going through an awakening at the moment where they break into the new information that is now out on the internet. The nature of this information is so mind blowing that it is impossible for a person to keep it to themself. the reason for this is because the entire perception of the world as we have been conditioned to view it form a young age is an illusion and this awakening changes the way a person views the world, themselves, others and everything else

Either he is going through that awakening process and the insatiable appetite that then comes for more information or he is stressed out and the energies are coming out in this beligerant way

I wouldn't push him too hard. Just probe gently to find the answers

 

[jupiterswoon]

Just out of curiosity was the reporter Matt Taibbi?

Yes, how did you know that? Also, I purposefully don't want to talk about politics in this thread, so please let's keep it focused on the issue at hand.


But you're right....he needs to support what he is saying if he wants to be credible otherwise he is just another person posting an opinion online and will look like another person just posting an opinion

That's the thing, he has really good insights, but I feel like since he is not posting information with his statements, people who are not knowledgeable will be more likely to dismiss him.


I know a guy who i think is an INTJ. He debates a lot with his family about stuff. In the context of his family dynamic though it appears to be more of a battle of wills than an actual sharing of good information

It usually seems like a battle of wills- he has a similar dynamic. It's frustrating because he refuses to see when he is being subconsciously motivated in an argument- for me it's more obvious as an INFJ. Sometimes he is unreasonable but he will never admit it.

If a person is not sharing good information then that is probably not their prime motivation

If you are asking to have a debate but only write in an esoteric vein, and only truly debate with people who agree with you, it's more like a form of masturbation that serves no other purpose. We have talked about it a lot, and I know that his general goal is to change people's opinions about politics, but the way that he is doing it makes him seem like a rigid elitist. What he wants, and what he thinks he is doing are two separate things.



If your comment was public then that would be the problem...the fragile male ego

Probably best to keep constructive criticism between yourselves to avoid anyone losing face

Men often feel they have to present a strong front to the world....like a wall they are building around themself againt a world they perceive as being competitive or cut throat. They want their partner to have their back

I didn't know that it would hurt his feelings so much, but I feel like I have an obligation to myself, and I don't want to look like I support him when I might differ in opinion. This can be especially frustrating for my own ego, because I don't want to perceived as some permissive girl who just agrees with everything my boyfriend posts, I have my own identity, and I have had one before dating him. He should have known when I started dating him that I would disagree with him from time to time.


Just defensive hot air....don't take it personally. Apologise for commenting publically, reassure him that such discussions will be private from now on and help him to get to a more secure place in his life where he doesn't feel like he needs to circle the wagons so much. There might be something stressing him out at the moment?

I've been trying to help him get to a more secure place in his life. It's frustrating because he expects so much out of me, and I oblige, but when I want one thing, it's like this huge HUGE deal. In some ways I am a lot more mature than him, but he fails to realize that, and it can be really frustrating for me.

do you mind me asking what he does for a living?
Not relevant.


Give him your advice but do it in private

He migh be feeling isolated by his views enough as it is so he might need to feel like he has an ally in you
Fair point.

There is a knowledge gap at the moment in the world. The people at the top of society know whats going on because they are making all the plays. The rest of us are trying to piece together the puzzle from scraps and make sense of whats going on. people are all going around the internet swapping pieces of the puzzle to try and build a clearer picture
If that's what he's doing, he should just make a private group with his ten friends that have similar views. We have one friend who after being sniped for disagreeing would probably not even be cordial to us if we ran into him.


Does your partner have other interests to keep him grounded in reality and to take his mind off that stuff? Its absorbing but life needs to go on at the same time
He does have other interests, but this is like a core piece of his identity- maybe too much so.



Are you having a disagreement on a political issue? Ask him why he is so sure of his view...that way you can also see if there is substance to what he is saying

I don't disagree with his arguments, I just think that he could present them better.



A lot of people are going through an awakening at the moment where they break into the new information that is now out on the internet. The nature of this information is so mind blowing that it is impossible for a person to keep it to themself. the reason for this is because the entire perception of the world as we have been conditioned to view it form a young age is an illusion and this awakening changes the way a person views the world, themselves, others and everything else

He's been going through this phase forever, like me we are constantly processing new information, the problem is more with how he is relating it. I'd go as far to say that this is part of his character and not even a phase. He will probably always be like this, this is why he will have to change at some point, and part of why this is an issue.

Either he is going through that awakening process and the insatiable appetite that then comes for more information or he is stressed out and the energies are coming out in this beligerant way

I wouldn't push him too hard. Just probe gently to find the answers

Thanks for responding, that was helpful.

 

[muir]

Yes, how did you know that?

Psychic powers

That's the thing, he has really good insights, but I feel like since he is not posting information with his statements, people who are not knowledgeable will be more likely to dismiss him.

I think the art is in identifying where a person is in their perceptions so that you can then see what part of the puzzle they are looking for

If he is trying to write pieces like a journalist then he is not doing it to a small target audience....this might mean it is more of a blunt instrument than a surgical scapel

One problem about the internet is that you never know who will read what you write. There will always be someone to be offended because at the moment everyones perceptions are in a different place. i think as events drive forward peoples perceptions will converge on reality more

It usually seems like a battle of wills- he has a similar dynamic. It's frustrating because he refuses to see when he is being subconsciously motivated in an argument- for me it's more obvious as an INFJ. Sometimes he is unreasonable but he will never admit it.

If only those other types could just be a little more like us

Joking aside though i think the world is suffering from a serious shortage of INFJ's....who the hell designed this whole game to have so few INFJ's? That was a serious flaw in the design.

If you are asking to have a debate but only write in an esoteric vein, and only truly debate with people who agree with you, it's more like a form of masturbation that serves no other purpose. We have talked about it a lot, and I know that his general goal is to change people's opinions about politics, but the way that he is doing it makes him seem like a rigid elitist. What he wants, and what he thinks he is doing are two separate things.

That's why i wondered if it was stress related. Stress can skew peoples perceptions

Every writer needs to find their voice...their style....if he is aspiring to be a writer perhaps he's cutting his teeth on facebook? Honing his skills in a safe environment

I didn't know that it would hurt his feelings so much, but I feel like I have an obligation to myself, and I don't want to look like I support him when I might differ in opinion.

Yeah that's a tricky one...you have a right to your own opinion. If you want to express yourself totally truthfully in any arena there will be conflict!!!!

So in the arena of your relationship it might be the case that you need to find a balance between expressing yourself and not clashing with your partner....or be very diplomatic!

I've been trying to help him get to a more secure place in his life. It's frustrating because he expects so much out of me, and I oblige, but when I want one thing, it's like this huge HUGE deal. In some ways I am a lot more mature than him, but he fails to realize that, and it can be really frustrating for me.

Women are the glue that bind everything together...they have to be 'mature'

Men are more obsessive. This can have good effects and bad effects. It can isolate but it can also create.

][/B]Not relevant.

I only asked to see if it is the kind of thing that might make him stressed or defensive....to fill in my own intuitive puzzle

Fair point.

If that's what he's doing, he should just make a private group with his ten friends that have similar views. We have one friend who after being sniped for disagreeing would probably not even be cordial to us if we ran into him.

Well thats one way to stress test a friendship

He does have other interests, but this is like a core piece of his identity- maybe too much so.

I was watching a clip of alex jones recently....there's a guy who is just totally energised by this awakening process. He said something along the lines of: he now sees reality as such a false artifice that he doesn't really take pleasure in many aspects of it that he used to because it feels synthetic now....like the matrix

I think the awakening brings a massive restructuring of priorities.

I don't disagree with his arguments, I just think that he could present them better.

He's been going through this phase forever, like me we are constantly processing new information, the problem is more with how he is relating it. I'd go as far to say that this is part of his character and not even a phase. He will probably always be like this, this is why he will have to change at some point, and part of why this is an issue.

I don't think he is alone. Many people out there in the 'truth movement' say that it is a lonely path because as you shift your perception of reality and your priorities it throws you out of synch with those still in synch with the old ways

 

[TinyBubbles]

you're trying to connect to him through your feelings, but he's dismissive of his own feelings (and in turn, yours) and is identified with the logic of his essays. you've gotta meet him on his own territory. compete logically, give him irrefutable facts and pick apart his arguments, line by line. then you can divert attention to what you actually care about - his alienating his friends, etc. but put it across in terms of how it affects the logic of his essays. hope that helps!

 

[Trifoilum]

Ask him (or, yourself) whether if he points the essay in hopes to convert / inform people of his views, -or- to snipe people down.

With the former, you can use a variant of tone arguments; that people will get defensive with the wrong tone, which will prevent improvement from happening (even worse, the opposite)
With the latter.....I....am afraid....that tells something about him. And in that case I think you'd better approach your friends on your own-- tell them that his behavior is by no means an indicator of yours.

 

[sassafras]

Well, being friends with someone who is very heavily involved in the field and having myself experienced many a blow up over the most innocuous comments on the subject, I can tell you that politics is a very personal thing. For some people, making a public declaration for a political party or taking an unpopular stance is sometimes akin to declaring one's sexual orientation or religion with the unspoken expectation of being persecuted for those beliefs at every turn. And for good reason. Politics is very polarizing. One person's 'moderate view' is another person's reason to invoke Godwin's Law. Given the aggressive, at-ready environment that usually arises when politics comes up, it's not surprising that receiving any kind of feedback that isn't glowing praise or wholehearted support may come across as criticism, no matter what your tone or intentions are when you approach the issue.

If your boyfriend is anything like my ENTP ex, it could be that you pointing out the flaws in his argument may be a point of pride for him. My ex would approach me about everything and anything, but politics is his domain, not mine. So it's when my otherwise poorly read political butt makes an astute observation, you can bet his defenses go up and he starts derailing the conversation until he can "catch" me on something that I don't know about. Maybe this a similar case with your boyfriend. If you're not usually one to criticize his arguments, perhaps he's feeling little threatened by this rarely seen part of your personality and trying to reassert his identity in the relationship as the logical one.

Or, on some unconscious level, perhaps he already knows that he can't undeniably prove what he's saying... or he can't take the criticism, so he knows that by dressing it up in flowery language and righteous political passion is the only way he can safely present his arguments without having people pick it apart. When you lay out your reasoning clearly, you're opening yourself up to debate and maybe a debate isn't in fact what he wants. Maybe all he wants is people to agree with him unquestioningly.

As to how you can deal with it, well, the first thing I'm going to say is that you many not be able to resolve this calmly and if he does get snippy again, don't take it personally. It may actually have very little to do with you.

Spend some time over the next few days reassuring him and giving him deserved praise for his intelligence and abilities in other areas so he doesn't feel threatened by you or that you doubt him. Then when time is right, breach the topic again. He may be a little more receptive. And even if he isn't, calmly stick to your guns and clearly re-iterate your main points when you notice him trying to derail the conversation or flip the script on you.