INFJ feelings and permission

[wolly.green]

Please be honest.. Is it true that INFJ's need to express their true feelings before they are allowed to have their own thoughts? Expressing your feelings outward gives you permission to have your own Ti ideas and thoughts.

My understanding is that all feelers need permission from their F to express their T. With Fe users, they need their feelings to be outwardly validated by the people around them before they are allowed to have their own subjective, personal truth? Your feelings must be in sync with the people around you before you can diverge and have your own opinions. This is because they might conflict with the personal truths of others around you?

 

[Wyote]

I don't know that it's a necessity, but it helps a fuckin lot

 

[Sandie33]

Is it true that INFJ's need to express their true feelings before they are allowed to have their own thoughts?

No, not for me, and should not be taken in such a b/w context. There is gray area for both F and T for me. To clarify, it's all running at once. Ni is assessing in the background while Ti is thought processing and Fe is monitoring both with the continual question of does this feel correct or not? (J) If I answer uhhuh, or yes the thought is correct then I proceed; all of this happens in an instant. This is true for when I enlist outside validation from others. By throwing my ideas out there to bounce of others for feedback, I can then assess if what they tell me is valid in the sense that I need to adjust myself in some way or not. Typically, I get my own answers and correct conclusion because I don't rely on feedback from outside myself but rather I rely on my own instincts as to what is correct or incorrect for me. This takes practice.

Expressing your feelings outward gives you permission to have your own Ti ideas and thoughts.

No. *see above.

With Fe users, they need their feelings to be outwardly validated by the people around them before they are allowed to have their own subjective, personal truth?

Again, no. This would be silly to do really, as we would be consistantly jumping through the hoops of the differing opinions of others. I believe it to be unhealthy too. This concept may even be why an InFJ feels so misunderstood...in an effort to help everyone instead of a select few we can become a people pleaser and inevitably help no one including ourself by changing to fit the needs of others first. Personal truth should never be subjective, but rather grounded in our own values and beliefs. For instance, if we continually changed our core self based on outer influences we'd end up a confused and irrational mess. As an example, 'they don't like me because I'm different from them, therefore I must change something in myself to be more like them', that's hogwash unless you're wanting to be a sheep.

Your feelings must be in sync with the people around you before you can diverge and have your own opinions. This is because they might conflict with the personal truths of others around you?

Absolutely not. We are not intended to be like any other. Not everyone will like us. If we InFJ's remember that our unique processing is a gift rather than a curse to be in feeling with others we can then accept that we may have to go it alone, because few really are willing to invest in understanding how we process life.

Understanding that it is the feelings themselves that are subjective and fleeting, not our core values and beliefs, which these should be the basis for how we form our opinions.

Hope this helps @wolly.green

 

[wolly.green]

No, not for me, and should not be taken in such a b/w context. There is gray area for both F and T for me. To clarify, it's all running at once. Ni is assessing in the background while Ti is thought processing and Fe is monitoring both with the continual question of does this feel correct or not? (J) If I answer uhhuh, or yes the thought is correct then I proceed; all of this happens in an instant. This is true for when I enlist outside validation from others. By throwing my ideas out there to bounce of others for feedback, I can then assess if what they tell me is valid in the sense that I need to adjust myself in some way or not. Typically, I get my own answers and correct conclusion because I don't rely on feedback from outside myself but rather I rely on my own instincts as to what is correct or incorrect for me. This takes practice.

No. *see above.

Again, no. This would be silly to do really, as we would be consistantly jumping through the hoops of the differing opinions of others. I believe it to be unhealthy too. This concept may even be why an InFJ feels so misunderstood...in an effort to help everyone instead of a select few we can become a people pleaser and inevitably help no one including ourself by changing to fit the needs of others first. Personal truth should never be subjective, but rather grounded in our own values and beliefs. For instance, if we continually changed our core self based on outer influences we'd end up a confused and irrational mess. As an example, 'they don't like me because I'm different from them, therefore I must change something in myself to be more like them', that's hogwash unless you're wanting to be a sheep.

Absolutely not. We are not intended to be like any other. Not everyone will like us. If we InFJ's remember that our unique processing is a gift rather than a curse to be in feeling with others we can then accept that we may have to go it alone, because few really are willing to invest in understanding how we process life.

Understanding that it is the feelings themselves that are subjective and fleeting, not our core values and beliefs, which these should be the basis for how we form our opinions.

Hope this helps @wolly.green

Hi, thanks for your thoughtful reply! Just a follow up question. So you understand the intuition behind the question I was asking? In other words, it makes intuitive sense, even though you know what i've said is unhealthy?

 

[Asa]

Please be honest.. Is it true that INFJ's need to express their true feelings before they are allowed to have their own thoughts? Expressing your feelings outward gives you permission to have your own Ti ideas and thoughts.

My understanding is that all feelers need permission from their F to express their T. With Fe users, they need their feelings to be outwardly validated by the people around them before they are allowed to have their own subjective, personal truth? Your feelings must be in sync with the people around you before you can diverge and have your own opinions. This is because they might conflict with the personal truths of others around you?

I don't know.

In general, I won't open up in situations where I don't trust people, or where I don't click with people. That need could be Fe based as you suggest. Maybe, maybe not. I don't need to express my feelings before sharing my ideas, though.

 

[Wyote]

In other words, it makes intuitive sense, even though you know what i've said is unhealthy?

I think it's incorrect to label the behavior unhealthy.
We are social creatures, it's natural to want to be able to engage socially with ease.
Interdependent thoughts bring forth greater contextualization in a lot of cases.
There is a time and place for both independent thought and interdependent thought and learning both is valuable.

 

[Sandie33]

Hi, thanks for your thoughtful reply! Just a follow up question. So you understand the intuition behind the question I was asking? In other words, it makes intuitive sense, even though you know what i've said is unhealthy?

Yes

 

[Sandie33]

I think it's incorrect to label the behavior unhealthy.
We are social creatures, it's natural to want to be able to engage socially with ease.
Interdependent thoughts bring forth greater contextualization in a lot of cases.
There is a time and place for both independent thought and interdependent thought and learning both is valuable.

Well said @Wyote

 

[Daustus]

Necessity no, but I prefer to talk about both feelings and thoughts intertwined. I like to share what I'm thinking and how it makes me feel with the people that are in my life, especially my inner circle. I'm not sure it's linear with the feeling holding up the thinking. They're smashed together in a sandwich - imagine eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I taste the PB and Jelly at the same time. I have been stuck in Ni/Ti loops because I do not want to verbalize the thoughts/feelings I'm having because they might not be received well.

I will say that I might hold back one avenue of the dual stream conversation if there isn't trust or if I know the other person really has a preference on communication. My brother is an ISTJ - he's personally bad at understanding other people's emotions and doesn't really talk about how he feels. He prefers to talk about thoughts or his physical reactions. I don't normally share what I feel with him because it makes him uncomfortable. I share a lot of my thoughts without a ton of "feeler" language.

My wife who's an INTJ gets almost everything all the time. We've been together for 10 years and I find that we both inversely would prefer a like more dialogue around what we externalize but I equate that to Fe and Te preferences. She'd like more of my internal thoughts, I'd like more of her internal feelings.

 

[John K]

Please be honest.. Is it true that INFJ's need to express their true feelings before they are allowed to have their own thoughts? Expressing your feelings outward gives you permission to have your own Ti ideas and thoughts.

My understanding is that all feelers need permission from their F to express their T. With Fe users, they need their feelings to be outwardly validated by the people around them before they are allowed to have their own subjective, personal truth? Your feelings must be in sync with the people around you before you can diverge and have your own opinions. This is because they might conflict with the personal truths of others around you?

Not at all, speaking for myself!! My thoughts are rooted in Ni which creates worlds within me that I experience a little like I see things in the outer world. It bows to no man (or other function!) .

That doesn't mean thinking and feeling aren't important for me - and sensing too. These are how I bring things in so that they can be integrated, and they are how I relate my inner experience to the objective world, and to other people's visions and experiences. Ti is important to me, because it's through Ti that I can linearize my Ni insight and translate it into words - a bit like how you might describe a landscape verbally. Fe keeps me grounded in a number of different ways when things are going well. It has a sympathetic ear which picks up what I need to feed into me, it has a sensitive antenna that tells me how others are relating to me and how I should relate to them - and it works closely with Ni and Ti to act as a rational nonsense detector, whether generated by me or incoming from others. F also plays a big part in setting some of my priorities and agenda - in terms of the things that matter to me values-wise, and how to employ my other functions on those values. Now there are certainly times when I am in company where I may appear to need Fe's permission to express myself - this is not usually a problem with my Ni worlds, but a problem translating them into something that makes sense within a particular social context. It takes only a few seconds to see if anyone shares any of my inner world perspectives - if they don't then it's almost always just not worth the effort of trying to share them, and I'll then use Fe and Ni in tandem to blend in with the group as well as I can.

I definitely find the conscious use of Fe to express myself externally discharges rather than increases tension, whereas Ti definitely increases tension. Even so, because Ti involves only myself it is easy to use it a lot, and there are times when it tries to usurp my Ni. This is because I'm pretty good at thinking, and it gets far more positive feedback externally than unsupported insights do. Fe brings its problems sometimes too - I can be far too sensitive to what others are feeling and this can distort the way I express myself, and the decisions I take. It can also lead me into empathy traps all too easily - so Ni and Ti have to work together to help me avoid these problems.

A bit of a ramble so I'll stop there .....

 

[Daustus]

It takes only a few seconds to see if anyone shares any of my inner world perspectives - if they don't then it's almost always just not worth the effort of trying to share them, and I'll then use Fe and Ni in tandem to blend in with the group as well as I can.

I relate to this. The imagery that comes to mind is seeing who can pull up a seat to the conversation table. If no one relates to the perspective I don't feel inclined to go thru the effort of sharing it. That wording was spot on John!

 

[John K]

I relate to this. The imagery that comes to mind is seeing who can pull up a seat to the conversation table. If no one relates to the perspective I don't feel inclined to go thru the effort of sharing it. That wording was spot on John!

Thanks for that Daustus - and yes, your analogy of who can pull a seat up to the table is spot on too. I don't know about you but I've found almost always it's me trying to accommodate the others by moving onto their ground - it's what's so refreshing about the Forum (and the donuts of course )

 

[Wyote]

I've found almost always it's me trying to accommodate the others by moving onto their ground

Yup

 

[Daustus]

Thanks for that Daustus - and yes, your analogy of who can pull a seat up to the table is spot on too. I don't know about you but I've found almost always it's me trying to accommodate the others by moving onto their ground - it's what's so refreshing about the Forum (and the donuts of course )

I'm totally in it for the donuts! John I think that's accurate to say about accommodating them. It's a like Ni detects a potential shared inner world that I'm interested in talking about. If it resonates then my reactions is "shared ground - lets explore this". I don't really want to force conversations on topics I'm interested in. I think I can talk about anything as long as the other person is interested. It's especially rewarding when it's shared ground. Random Ni thought for the day - I think I should start a podcast where I just talk to interesting people.

 

[John K]

I'm totally in it for the donuts! John I think that's accurate to say about accommodating them. It's a like Ni detects a potential shared inner world that I'm interested in talking about. If it resonates then my reactions is "shared ground - lets explore this". I don't really want to force conversations on topics I'm interested in. I think I can talk about anything as long as the other person is interested. It's especially rewarding when it's shared ground. Random Ni thought for the day - I think I should start a podcast where I just talk to interesting people.

In fairness to @wolly.green 's suggestion, I do see things from a different perspective when I try and express them in a way that can be communicated. It's like looking in a mirror sometimes.

Non-verbal expression is good - I sometimes wish I had the ability to write music - or to produce art like @Asa . You only have to look briefly around the forum to see how powerful these can be as ways of expressing a rich intuitive vision through an Fe presentation. Art and music seem to be very good ways of attracting people with a similar perspective too.

Spoiler

Of course all true INFJs are like hedgehogs - a close approach to our innermost world has to be handled with very great care or else

I like the idea of your podcast - are you suggesting recorded conversations with interesting people?

 

[sassafras]

Please be honest.. Is it true that INFJ's need to express their true feelings before they are allowed to have their own thoughts? Expressing your feelings outward gives you permission to have your own Ti ideas and thoughts.

My understanding is that all feelers need permission from their F to express their T. With Fe users, they need their feelings to be outwardly validated by the people around them before they are allowed to have their own subjective, personal truth? Your feelings must be in sync with the people around you before you can diverge and have your own opinions. This is because they might conflict with the personal truths of others around you?

Hmm. Well, you may not be on the right page, but you're reading the right chapter.

INFJs have a hard time with their feelings because they're largely instinctual types. Your Ni takes in information from your inferior Se and feeds it through your Fe in a highly compressed but holistic fashion... and then your Ti has the fun task of parsing it all. You're technically always 'feeling' first but the trouble is, you're prone to getting stuck in the same emotional loop. Your body stores emotions that are the result of a myriad of beliefs and thoughts you keep thinking over and over. Stop me if this sound familiar: you experience a feeling, you try to express that feeling, you don't know what that feeling is or where it comes from to adequately express it, so you spend time trying to break down the feeling, and by the time you're done, you're left with something bigger and more intense than what you initially set out to express.

The exercise here is to simply sit with your feelings and try not to 'figure them out.' Just let your body do its thing without finding an explanation for why you're experiencing what you're experiencing or if you're 'done' expressing. Do this for a quiet 10-15 minutes a day. Sometimes you won't feel anything, sometimes you might feel things bubble to the surface. Accept them as they are.. and once you're done your session, focus on something positive or a task that is engrossing. Over time, you'll feel things clear as your body unlearns the pattern of feeling the feelings that you used to pay so much attention to and try to figure out.

 

[Sandie33]

Hmm. Well, you may not be on the right page, but you're reading the right chapter.

I think we all experience this

 

[sassafras]

I think we all experience this

Oh hell yeah, or worse. I'm often in the wrong library.

 

[John K]

Oh hell yeah, or worse. I'm often in the wrong library.

 

[sassafras]

View attachment 55503

Beautiful.