In light of School Shootings. What about the shooter themselves?
- Thread starter Retroverse
- Start date
I'm getting really bored of school shootings and mass shootings in general where the media blows the whole thing up and makes the shooter out to either be some mentally ill loner who was teased by his peers or some muslim that got sucked in by ISIS and hates America.
Considering the amount of people who suffer from genuine mental illness and have thus far managed to not be isolated poor souls who are only close to their mothers, I'd rather just hear that these individuals are just pieces of shit who had a taste for blood. You can call that mental illness if you want to, but I think that painting every case of someone going on a rampage as being the result of mental illness does nothing to de-stigmatize it.
Imagine all this media coverage about the depressed and lonely going out to shoot up schools and I want to share with someone I've suffered from mental illness most of my life. Are they going to look at me with compassion and try to understand or are they going to think that I am going to show up at their school with an AK-47 and shoot them up because I felt a bit too sad one day?
Considering the amount of people who suffer from genuine mental illness and have thus far managed to not be isolated poor souls who are only close to their mothers, I'd rather just hear that these individuals are just pieces of shit who had a taste for blood. You can call that mental illness if you want to, but I think that painting every case of someone going on a rampage as being the result of mental illness does nothing to de-stigmatize it.
Imagine all this media coverage about the depressed and lonely going out to shoot up schools and I want to share with someone I've suffered from mental illness most of my life. Are they going to look at me with compassion and try to understand or are they going to think that I am going to show up at their school with an AK-47 and shoot them up because I felt a bit too sad one day?
I was really impressed with the Police Chief who refused to release the name of the shooter for days, his reason, to rob him of the limelight he probably imagined he would have…of course the media found out who he was.
Of course someone who goes on a mass shooting rampage has mental problems, but statistically most shootings are not done by the mentally ill but by family members.
The data that enacting stricter gun laws does in fact work is there, one only has to Google what Australia did after a mass shooting and the deaths dropped dramatically.
The problem is the mentality in the US that not only is it our right to own a gun, but we are practically pushed to go out and get one or 10.
I don’t currently own one, but I have had a 9mm while in the Coast Guard…so it was quite practical.
Blaming this on mental illness alone without touching tighter gun control measures is moronic IMO.
There are some very easy things that can be done (see above posts ^^^) that don’t take away anyone right to bear arms (which actually is supposed to be in the context of a “well organized militia” (that doesn’t mean a bunch of country bumpkins with homemade t-shirts getting together to drink beer and talk about overthrowing Obama).
The media is just a fucking joke at this point in time…no one really knows what is true anymore, you have so many conflicting stories and the news now seems to allude to more things than reporting on actual facts in an unbiased manner.
But what do you expect when those same media outlets are owned by corporations who have stock in weapons?
Who make money by locking the most people up in the world?
Let’s go shoot some shit!!! Yee-haw!!
I don't care too much about the gun stuff or the media. The issue runs a lot deeper than guns and media. It's this sort of weird deluded state of mind that people get into about "making a difference" by causing harm. I find it all bizarre and outlandish. I am not concerned about the gun toters. I am concerned about the general public that foams at the mouth over any drama and the blown up headlines that are on the TV. To me that is kind of sickness of the consciousness. It's what people want to see.
I am starting to think that people are aroused by violence and trauma.
A hunter waits for the right moment to kill. Give him a gun and get him close to an idiot killing people randomly and most of the time it will be game over. He can lay down his weapon and raise his hands after he has shut down the lunacy.
I agree with you.
Look at the amount of violence in movies…I mean did you see “The Kingsman”? Holy jeez.
It’s the same mentality of people yelling “jump” to someone about to commit suicide jumping off a building.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t have the right to carry concealed weapons, I just think it needs to be done in a smarter way than it is currently being done.
Because we blame mental illness and ignore how absolutely easy it is to buy a gun or multiple guns.
If you implement it correctly you CAN have some common sense regulations without infringing on anyone’s right to own a gun.
And statistics show that such regulations DO make it harder for criminals to get guns…that is an absolute falsity that gets spread around.
As far as my scenario is concerned, it was just a “what if?” to point out how these situations rarely go down without total confusion happening simultaneously.
Not saying you can’t carry your gun and shoot the “bad guy” at Whole Foods when he opens up in the cheese isle.
It would be nice though to make it harder on that guy in the cheese isle that bought said gun with cash the day before at a fairground gun show with no background checks to buy a gun.
What is wrong with mandating safety courses and certification? What is wrong with gun insurance? (that could actually save you money).
Combat Veterans: NRA’s ‘Good Guy With A Gun’ Nonsense Is A ‘Dangerous Fantasy’
by James DeVinnie - October 5, 2015
by James DeVinnie - October 5, 2015
Many conservatives ludicrously continue to argue that the solution to gun violence is more guns.
This perspective is best embodied by NRA chief Wayne LaPierre’s speech after the Sandy Hook shooting advocating arming teachers, in which he made the notorious statement, “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”
In the macho fantasies of conservatives who use their massive arsenals to augment their fragile masculinity, they would calmly and professionally take out the shooter in a potential mass shooting situation.
As much as these gun fetishists may wish to be heroes, however, all factual evidence from people with actual experience suggests that the “good guy with a gun” notion is totally bogus.
While Republicans like to parrot romanticized NRA ideals of armed citizens shooting down would-be evildoers, the reality is that the unprecedented sea of guns in which we live causes exponentially more harm than good.
A recent analysis of FBI data by the Washington Post found that for every lethal justified shooting — what could be called “good guy with a gun” incidents — guns are responsible for 34 murders, 78 suicides, and 2 accidental deaths.
The vast majority of these 114 “bad guy” deaths for each “good guy” death could be prevented with gun control, so acting like “good guys with guns” are the main group to be protected is dangerously disingenuous.
Moreover, as a recent case in Houston in which an armed passerby attempted to stop a carjacking and instead shot the victim shows, even in the few instances in which armed citizens could actually do something, the chaos, confusion, and fear of the situation makes it near-impossible.
There was a “good guy with a gun” on the campus of Umpqua Community College at the time of the shooting, as there has been on the scene of many recent mass shootings.
And yet, the shooting still unfolded.
In fact, an FBI analysis of 185 mass shootings over the past thirteen years found that a grand total of one was stopped by an armed civilian.
The reason for this is that, despite what conservatives may wish to believe, not just anyone can take up arms in the midst of the chaos and confusion of an active violent situation.
The Nation recently conducted interviews with dozens of veterans and law enforcement professionals — people who, unlike the bureaucrats and politicians of the NRA and Washington, have actual experience in combat situations.
All of them agreed that “the NRA’s heroic gunslinger mythology is a dangerous fantasy that bears little resemblence to reality.”
Dr. Steve Blair, who trains law enforcement officers to respond to active-shooter situations, says that when bullets fly, a natural stress response kicks in and people “freeze up and or don’t know what to do, and have difficulty performing actions correctly.”
Steve Benson, a Vietnam Veteran and former Navy SEAL who has traine elite troops, told The Nation:
“in chaotic situations the first thing you know is the sh*t has hit the fan and you don’t know where the fan is. And unless its constantly drilled into you, its very hard to maintain discipline in those situations. You’re immediately hit with a massive thump of adrenaline…. And the problem with that kind of state is that conscious thought shuts down because you’ve been taken over by your nervous system, and your nervous system is saying, ‘holy sh*t, things just got really bad”
Countries and states with higher rates of gun ownership have not only higher rates of gun death, but higher homicide and suicide rates overall.
Citizens carrying weapons has no effect on crime.
Studies like these have repeatedly showed that there is no situation in which guns make you safer — and that includes in mass shootings.
The simple fact of the matter is that, despite Republicans simple-minded desire to divide the world into “bad guys” and “good guys” (their own macho, gunslinging, ammosexual selves) what matters in an actual violent situation is experience and control.
And given the mind and body’s natural responses to the chaos and threat of an active-shooter situation, that is something that can only be achieved through years of professional training.
If the average sexually frustrated suburban four-by-four-driving conservative attempts to stop a shooting with their Walmart-bought gun, they will almost inevitably do more harm than good.
Agreed. This saddens me as well. It's the kind of big picture problem that dwarfs a single persons opinion, unless that opinion is in the right position of power. I find that all I can really on a personal level is pray, continually preach kindness, and behave in a generous manner when it comes forgiveness. If people in our country need help (and they do), we all need to be willing to guide them in the right direction, regardless of social stigma or personal preference.
The US is so backwards.
There is more money and resources going into fighting for the right of every individual in the US to own a gun than there is going into mental health resources to make sure there is easy access and that those that need help are identified early enough. There is a stigma with having mental illness but no stigma with being a gun toting paranoiac who thinks that everyone's out to take away his 'right'. Even if you believe that the average American has a right to own a gun why would you have a problem with having controls on selling guns to people with mental health issues? Isn't it worth having a few checks and balances and maybe having to wait a little to get a gun to make sure the ones who shouldn't have guns don't have easy access to them?
I think the whole USA needs to have their noggin examined. Sorry, but from the outside the way many if not most Americans think seems like insanity.
There is more money and resources going into fighting for the right of every individual in the US to own a gun than there is going into mental health resources to make sure there is easy access and that those that need help are identified early enough. There is a stigma with having mental illness but no stigma with being a gun toting paranoiac who thinks that everyone's out to take away his 'right'. Even if you believe that the average American has a right to own a gun why would you have a problem with having controls on selling guns to people with mental health issues? Isn't it worth having a few checks and balances and maybe having to wait a little to get a gun to make sure the ones who shouldn't have guns don't have easy access to them?
I think the whole USA needs to have their noggin examined. Sorry, but from the outside the way many if not most Americans think seems like insanity.
I am very, very familiar with BATF gun laws, waiting periods in some places, FFL dealers' responsibility to report multiple gun sales on a form immediately for a discreet and very deep background check on the individual. It used to be a law for only pistols, but now it must be reported for even two rifles. I praise ATF for their work to prevent things like this from happening. I am involved enough to know the laws.
A person raised by their Mother that has problems, for example, may fly under the radar if their parents do not get them the help they might need. Who's to blame for that? Mandatory hunters education courses are in place in my state....for those born after a certain date. I took a young man who had recently lost his stepdad duck hunting a few times where we could talk and befriend each other and the likes. I took the course with him, even though I did not need to because of how many years I had hunted. Due diligence is the responsibility of the gun owner. Quoting one or two out-of-the-ordinary events without full history of them is wrong. Don't try and mislead others. Some people don't like guns and don't buy them until crime waves start happening in their area. They have a right for protection if they feel the need. Having a gun pointed at you must be a bad thing, but I would prefer to know I had one on me in case I could get the chance to even the odds.
More people take classes than you think. Making them more available to the public help? Not with a criminal. Don't leave criminals out of the equation. They buy their guns where they want without papers most of the time. Nobody can stop that unless the seller is behind bars. Let him out in a few months and what does he go back doing?
I am all for not using the name of someone that has turned to hatred for his fellow humankind. Why put his name everywhere? Most of them kill themselves, but why use their names in the media? If they don't kill themselves, do them a favor and do it for them. Woe is me: I know...
A person raised by their Mother that has problems, for example, may fly under the radar if their parents do not get them the help they might need. Who's to blame for that? Mandatory hunters education courses are in place in my state....for those born after a certain date. I took a young man who had recently lost his stepdad duck hunting a few times where we could talk and befriend each other and the likes. I took the course with him, even though I did not need to because of how many years I had hunted. Due diligence is the responsibility of the gun owner. Quoting one or two out-of-the-ordinary events without full history of them is wrong. Don't try and mislead others. Some people don't like guns and don't buy them until crime waves start happening in their area. They have a right for protection if they feel the need. Having a gun pointed at you must be a bad thing, but I would prefer to know I had one on me in case I could get the chance to even the odds.
More people take classes than you think. Making them more available to the public help? Not with a criminal. Don't leave criminals out of the equation. They buy their guns where they want without papers most of the time. Nobody can stop that unless the seller is behind bars. Let him out in a few months and what does he go back doing?
I am all for not using the name of someone that has turned to hatred for his fellow humankind. Why put his name everywhere? Most of them kill themselves, but why use their names in the media? If they don't kill themselves, do them a favor and do it for them. Woe is me: I know...
US DOJ ATF Form 4473, question 11, part f, asks, "Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective( which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution? Yes or No boxes are there to check
If a seller(FFL) sees this answered as yes, the sale is aborted by NICS. If a parent does not get this addressed, it becomes a possible problem. I don't have the time to type the entire 4473, but will copy and paste if time permits. Many questions are there to PREVENT someone that is considered mentally and/or physically inappropriate to own a gun.
Should they mark the ID of someone that has had a problem? You answer that one, please.
https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download
Trigger locks are now mandatory for a pistol to be sold lawfully. Locks are sold with long guns.
If a seller(FFL) sees this answered as yes, the sale is aborted by NICS. If a parent does not get this addressed, it becomes a possible problem. I don't have the time to type the entire 4473, but will copy and paste if time permits. Many questions are there to PREVENT someone that is considered mentally and/or physically inappropriate to own a gun.
Should they mark the ID of someone that has had a problem? You answer that one, please.
https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download
Trigger locks are now mandatory for a pistol to be sold lawfully. Locks are sold with long guns.
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Anyone seen We need to talk about Kevin? Psychopathy is not listed in the dsm as a mental health issue and 1 in a 100 people are psychopaths.
They don't do the test on everyone going into prison and if you found out you were in the presence of a psychopath you would be as fearful as you would be if you were in a prison, if you think about that. You wouldn't have the same fear if you were a nurse in a psychiatric hospital. It's not the same. Prisoner behaviour is very psychopathic, if you have a look at and compare a paper on psychopaths and prison environments, they tally up. It doesn't for mental illness. Psychopaths may have additional mental health issues in addition to being psychopaths but they do what they do because they are... psychopaths.
They don't do the test on everyone going into prison and if you found out you were in the presence of a psychopath you would be as fearful as you would be if you were in a prison, if you think about that. You wouldn't have the same fear if you were a nurse in a psychiatric hospital. It's not the same. Prisoner behaviour is very psychopathic, if you have a look at and compare a paper on psychopaths and prison environments, they tally up. It doesn't for mental illness. Psychopaths may have additional mental health issues in addition to being psychopaths but they do what they do because they are... psychopaths.
"I am concerned about the general public that foams at the mouth over any drama and the blown up headlines that are on the TV. To me that is kind of sickness of the consciousness. It's what people want to see.
I am starting to think that people are aroused by violence and trauma. "
Exactly what i see.
I am starting to think that people are aroused by violence and trauma. "
Exactly what i see.
Probably the 8th graders.
Probably the hunters.
Probably lesser so the teachers.
And then probably not INFJs. (though maybe at a disproportionately small number) ((and one could argue that a TRUE INFJ couldn’t be lacking in emotion, unless through some terrible trauma., but then are they still an INFJ at that point?))
Actually…psychopaths have been shown to be naturally drawn to certain types of professions.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyclay/2013/01/05/the-top-10-jobs-that-attract-psychopaths/
There is a really good book called “The Psychopath Test” give it a pursuing.
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I agree with withholding the name…I wish the media would just let it be…but everyone gets so excited to learn all the juicy details of how fucked up so-and-so was/is…let’s look at their life under the media microscope and wildly speculate on what they were probably thinking at the time. (besides it reassures people about their own lives and mental state)
I get really sick of the so-called “experts” the news brings in on mental health or whatnot, it's such a circus side-show now.
Like I said - I am not against responsible gun purchasing and ownership.
I don’t want anyone who has a legitimate right now who owns a gun to have that right taken away.
It sounds like your state has some really great checks in place, but it’s not consistent across the US.
Here is an interactive map that shows what states have what checks and most of them have nil.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/s...irearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html
Like I said, I carried a side-arm 9mm in the Coast Guard and have fired the .50 cal a few times, I have shot just about every type of gun you can think of…fully auto AKs, M14s, shotguns, handguns, in fact…a friend of mine had one of these hahaha - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_Research_BFR
Man did that thing kick like a mule! (his holster on his hip also made me laugh, since he was like 5.5’ and the barrel of the gun almost went to his knee hahaha)
The point though is - the current paradigm is not working, it is either a problem with mental health or a problem with guns - why can’t it be both?
I swear I don’t want to take your guns just me…and honestly that will never happen here in America - there would be too many folks upset who would grab pitchforks (or guns).
It’s like trying to get the health insurance companies out of health care so we can have a single payer system like the rest of the civilized world and maybe medical bills wouldn’t be the number one reason in America that people file bankruptcy.
I’m not saying there are not competent people carrying guns out there…I’m not worried about most of those guys honestly.
It’s the guy that goes to the fairground gun show with no background checks who doesn’t want to take his schizophrenia meds that we should weed out.
Common sense stuff…nothing radical or ultraliberal.
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[MENTION=680]just me[/MENTION]
From the Christian website - http://heedinggodscall.org/content/pfctoolkit-10
If the statistics I have posted are not true then please give me some citations or links to set the record straight.
Gun Ownership
Sources: Injury Prevention (2007); ATF (2000); National Opinion Research Center (2008); Pew Research Center (2009)
Gun Deaths:
More than 30,000 people are killed by firearms each year in this country
More than 30 people are shot and murdered each day
1/2 of them are between the ages of 18 and 35
1/3 of them are under the age of 20
Homicide is the second leading cause of death among 15-24 year-olds
And the primary cause of death among African Americans of that age group
Gun Homicides (average annually):
Less than 50: Japan
Less than 150: Germany, Italy, France, etc.
Less than 200: Canada
More than 10,000: USA
Source: IANSA (International Action Network on Small Arms of the United Nations)
Injuries and Deaths from Guns
Everytime a gun injures or kills in self-defense, one is used:
Source: Journal of Trauma, injury, Infection and Critical Care (1998)
Per Capita Annual Gun Death Rate (per 100,000 population):
Highest: Louisiana (19.04, 45.6% households contain guns)
#25: Pennsylvania (10.90)
Lowest: CT, NY, New Jersey (4.99), RI, MA, Hawaii (2.20)
National: (10.32)
Source: Centers for Disease Control
Costs of Gun Violence
Guns Recovered from Crime
Distance From Legal Point of Purchase to Crime Recovery:
Source: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)
Percent of Recovered Crime Guns First Legally Purchased In-State:
Pennsylvania: 78%
New Jersey: 27% (18% from PA)
New York: 28%
Source: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)
Some Interesting Poll Data
77% of NRA members favor a waiting period for purchase of a handgun
82% of American support limiting the sales of military-style assault weapons
94% of police chiefs favor requiring a background check for all handgun sales.
Support for background checks on private gun sales, including gun shows:
Support for limiting handgun sales to one per person per month:
Support for registration of handguns
From the Christian website - http://heedinggodscall.org/content/pfctoolkit-10
If the statistics I have posted are not true then please give me some citations or links to set the record straight.
USA Gun Violence Statistics
USA Gun Violence Statistics Document
GUN VIOLENCE in the UNITED STATES
Some Indicative Data:
GUN VIOLENCE in the UNITED STATES
Gun Ownership
- The US has an estimated 283 million guns in civilian hands
- Each year about 4.5 million firearms, including approximately 2 million handguns, are sold in the United States
- An estimated 2 million second hand firearms are sold each year
- The percentage of American households with a gun has been steadily declining (high of 54% in 1977 to 33% in 2009)
- The average number of guns per owner has increased from 4.1 in 1994 to 6.9 in 2004.
Sources: Injury Prevention (2007); ATF (2000); National Opinion Research Center (2008); Pew Research Center (2009)
Gun Deaths:
More than 30,000 people are killed by firearms each year in this country
More than 30 people are shot and murdered each day
1/2 of them are between the ages of 18 and 35
1/3 of them are under the age of 20
Homicide is the second leading cause of death among 15-24 year-olds
And the primary cause of death among African Americans of that age group
Gun Homicides (average annually):
Less than 50: Japan
Less than 150: Germany, Italy, France, etc.
Less than 200: Canada
More than 10,000: USA
Source: IANSA (International Action Network on Small Arms of the United Nations)
Injuries and Deaths from Guns
Everytime a gun injures or kills in self-defense, one is used:
- 11 times for a completed or attempted suicide
- 7 times in a criminal assault or homicide
- 4 times in an unintentional shooting death or injury
Source: Journal of Trauma, injury, Infection and Critical Care (1998)
Per Capita Annual Gun Death Rate (per 100,000 population):
Highest: Louisiana (19.04, 45.6% households contain guns)
#25: Pennsylvania (10.90)
Lowest: CT, NY, New Jersey (4.99), RI, MA, Hawaii (2.20)
National: (10.32)
Source: Centers for Disease Control
Costs of Gun Violence
- Gun violence impacts society in many ways: medical costs, costs of the criminal justice system, security precautions such as metal detectors, and reductions in the quality of life because of fear of gun violence.
- U.S. lifetime medical costs for gunshot injuries total an estimated $2.3 billion
- U.S. taxpayers pay for almost half ($1.1 billion or 49%) of lifetime medical costs for gunshot injuries
Guns Recovered from Crime
- Only 1% of gun dealer account for almost 60% of crime guns recovered by police and later traced
- In one year, at least 30,000 guns were “lost” out of gun dealers inventories
- Guns with a short “time to crime” are disproportionately represented among crime guns. Guns manufactured and sold 3 years or less, prior to recopvery by police in crime make up 34 % of recovered and traced crime guns, but only 14% of the US gun stock.
- Guns sold as paert of a multiple sale at a gun dealer were up to 64% more likely to be used in a crime than guns not part of such sales.
- “No background check” sales account for an estimated 40% of gun sales in the U.S.
Distance From Legal Point of Purchase to Crime Recovery:
| Within 10 miles | More than 100 miles | |
| Philadelphia | 61.2% | 18.1% |
| Pittsburgh | 62.9% | 12.6% |
| Newark | 9.1% | 81.5% |
| New York City | 4.4% | 83% |
Percent of Recovered Crime Guns First Legally Purchased In-State:
Pennsylvania: 78%
New Jersey: 27% (18% from PA)
New York: 28%
Source: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)
Some Interesting Poll Data
77% of NRA members favor a waiting period for purchase of a handgun
82% of American support limiting the sales of military-style assault weapons
94% of police chiefs favor requiring a background check for all handgun sales.
Support for background checks on private gun sales, including gun shows:
- 87% of American
- 83% of gun owners
- 69% of NRA gun-owners
Support for limiting handgun sales to one per person per month:
- 65% of Americans
- 59% of gun owners
Support for registration of handguns
- 79% of Americans
- 69% of police chiefs
- 61% of gun owners
- 59% of NRA members