If World War III... | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

If World War III...

I think, though, that states DO have ideology. Nazi Germany is a prime example. The only reason it went to war with Russia (a doomed enterprise) was becaue of the ideology that the slavs were lesser humans than Aryans, and that the Bolsheviks had to be wiped out. Hitler intended to go to war with Russia from day one purely on ideological grounds.

I think the cold war as well is a great example of ideological US thinking as well. The war with communism was a war of ideas, as well as a war of power (trying to stop Soviet influence). Communism itself is a very attractive ideology which spread to China, Vietnam, Cuba, among other places. So ideas can move things. What interest did the US have in vietnam otehr than ideological?

Realism's big flaw is that it assumes that states are single-minded entities, when they are not. States have leaders, and political processes, which effect how it behaves. Sometimes states act rationally -- when they have rational leaders. When they don't (as in Revolutionary France, or HItler's germany) then you get ideological struggles.
 
Realism's big flaw is that it assumes that states are single-minded entities, when they are not. States have leaders, and political processes, which effect how it behaves. Sometimes states act rationally -- when they have rational leaders. When they don't (as in Revolutionary France, or HItler's germany) then you get ideological struggles.
Heh. True about the fact that states are single-minded entities is a false idea. If you want to deal in a more complicated manner, pluralism and it's theories are for you. But since we're not talking in general but specifficaly about war, states DO act rationally. Allow me to speak on those examples you brought.
Nazi Germany is a prime example. The only reason it went to war with Russia (a doomed enterprise) was becaue of the ideology that the slavs were lesser humans than Aryans, and that the Bolsheviks had to be wiped out. Hitler intended to go to war with Russia from day one purely on ideological grounds.
Nope it was neither a doomed enterprise nor a war of ideologies. It was the very next step for world domination. In the Realistic approach, there are theories called Hegemony theories. They analyze the way Superpowers act and decide, basically having one goal: to dominate the earth. There are many ways, economy, diplomacy etc but the most interesting and factual one is military domination. Besides, Nazi germany was based on the idea of RealPolitik and Geopolitik. One of the most interesting reasons that Hitler invaded Russia was because one of his goals was to conquer Baku, earths most treasured when speaking about oil. In fact, there is a photo of Hitlers birthday during the invasion, where the cake is the world and the piece served to Hitler is Baku. If Hitler had succeeded in taking Baku and securing oil for his war funding and as a political measure to pressure Turkey and Middle eastern countries into joining him, then things would have been more complicated. But, considering that the U.S had developed strategic weapons, the outcome would probably be the same.

I think the cold war as well is a great example of ideological US thinking as well. The war with communism was a war of ideas, as well as a war of power (trying to stop Soviet influence). Communism itself is a very attractive ideology which spread to China, Vietnam, Cuba, among other places. So ideas can move things. What interest did the US have in vietnam otehr than ideological?
Communism??? What are you talking about? USSR was even more realistic than the US. There were no ideas. Do you think that when "communists" were planning their political strategies were thinking of the people and the dictatorship of the proletariat? Of course not. Their goal was simple. Be the last remaining superpower. The fact that America was their opponent was just incidental. Any country could be in America's position, and the USSR strategy would be excactly the same. Besides, USSR wasn't even close to Marxism. Their organization had NOTHING to do with communistic ideas. It was just a dictatorship, ruthless and effective. You think that if the USSR hadn't developed nuclear weaponry in 1949 America would actually give a damn about them? Dont forget, the U.S sided with supposed Communists, China, in order to oppose the USSR. As far as Vietnam, the idea is simple. Avoid the Domino effect. Communist Ideology was simply the means to an end. They just did not want to allow any countries to fall under USSR's inlfuence. Isolate your enemy. Simple as that.


Don't get me wrong. I'm talking about IR here. If you want to see what happens to a state's INTERIOR, then forget all the above and go with pluralism as a basis. Everything counts there.
 
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In fact, there is a photo of Hitlers birthday during the invasion, where the cake is the world and the piece served to Hitler is Baku
.Seeing the fun in WW2:
102_615_hitler1.jpg


102_617_hitler3.jpg



Yup. The world's greatest enemy was an idiot. :p
 
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I think that the next world war is inevitable.

The more pertinent question is whether or not it'll become nuclear. And then whether or not the nuclear war is confined to one region, a small region or regions, or global annilhiation.
 
Besides, Nazi germany was based on the idea of RealPolitik and Geopolitik. One of the most interesting reasons that Hitler invaded Russia was because one of his goals was to conquer Baku, earths most treasured when speaking about oil. In fact, there is a foto of Hitlers birthday during the invasion, where the cake is the world and the piece served to Hitler is Baku.



Saying Hitler was a good strategist and recognized the strategic gains of taking over the oil fields of Baku is very different than saying that the Nazi state acted rationally in international relations. I agree that Baku had strategic influence. However, it's also true that HIlter was talking about taking over Russia as early as Mein Kampf (the mid 1920s) purely for ideological reasons. In fact, the entire basis of the Nazi state was based on the alleged ideological superiority of the Aryan race.

If Hitler's Germany had acted "rationally," then it argualy would still exist today. In fact, it's indisputable that it made war with too many people in too short a period, was ganged up on and was absolutely crushed. It's empire lasted a mere 12 years. Hitler invaded Russia too quickly, and he did so because he was scared of the alleged menace posed by slavic peoples in Russia, who were also bolsheviks. That does not strike me as rational behavior in the slightest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#German_intentions

Communism??? What are you talking about? USSR was even more realistic than the US. There were no ideas. Do you think that when "communists" were planning their political strategies were thinking of the people and the dictatorship of the proletariat? Of course not. Their goal was simple. Be the last remaining superpower. The fact that America was their opponent was just incidental. Any country could be in America's position, and the USSR strategy would be excactly the same. Besides, USSR wasn't even close to Marxism. Their organization had NOTHING to do with communistic ideas. It was just a dictatorship, ruthless and effective. You think that if the USSR hadn't developed nuclear weaponry in 1949 America would actually give a damn about them? Dont forget, the U.S sided with supposed Communists, China, in order to oppose the USSR. As far as Vietnam, the idea is simple. Avoid the Domino effect. Communist Ideology was simply a means to a end. They just did not want to allow any countries to fall under USSR's inlfuence. Isolate your enemy. Simple as that.

You're ignorning the historical context of the time. Bolshevism and communism were seen as a threat to the great powers since its inception in the 1860s. Communism in Russia was the result of decades and decades of thought and organized protest. Lenin and Trotsky didn't appear out of nowhere and just think communism was a good idea to placate the masses. They were building on a very real movement that had protested the Tsar for a long time.

Communism itself was a very itnernational movement that spanned boundaries in ways that are difficult for us to conceive of today (because there aren't many global ideas anymore).

When Lenin came to power, he took a lot of flak from communists for implementing capitalism, but he cited to Marx, saying that Russia had to move through capitalism before it could get to communism. this was called the "New Economic Policy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy

When Stalin came to power, he had to purge a lot of these people as well as Trotsky. He was a bit less ideological when it came to communism -- but at the same time, he also collectived farming, a highly ideological decision which resulted in widespread famine and killed millions, especially in the Ukraine.

So I don't think it's accurate to say "there were no ideas." Communism guided Russian policy well through Stalin. After Stalin died, I would agree that the dictatorship in charge became less ideological and more concerned with basic survival. It wasn't until the 1970s that the US made peace with China to block the USSR, and only AFTER China and the USSR became enemies in the late 1960s. I agree that that was realpolitik at work. But it only happened after the ideological glue failed to bind CHina and the USSR.


Don't get me wrong. I'm talking about IR here. If you want to see what happens to a state's INTERIOR, then forget all the above and go with pluralism as a basis. Everything counts there.

I'm not sure how you can separate the two. I think my basic point is that it's not always accurate to assume that states act rationally in the international arena. What does it mean to act "rationally"? To put your long term interests ahead of your short term interests? In the case of nazi germany, I am once again reminded that perhaps one of the most powerful countries that ever existed lasted only 12 years. So they did not appear to act very rationally.

At best, realism seems like a "catch-all" explanation -- and thus justification -- for why states engage in cut-throat behavior at the expense of other states. Henry Kissigner is a wanted war criminal in many countries. not the spokesperson I'd want for a philosophy, personally.
 
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Here we go... this is gonna be one looooong post.
I agree that Baku had strategic influence. However, it's also true that HIlter was talking about taking over Russia as early as Mein Kampf (the mid 1920s) purely for ideological reasons. In fact, the entire basis of the Nazi state was based on the alleged ideological superiority of the Aryan race.
Mein Kampf was simply a propaganda book. His supposed ideologies about the Aryan race were directed towards the people, not those that created his strategies for him. He even recollects: "I want my youth strong. I do not want it to possess useless knowledge". He was basically creating expendable ships. The Aryan race idea was the means to convince the people to accept the choice of domination that Germany had planned as a goal. Its started that goal in full conscience because it judged that it could win.

If Hitler's Germany had acted "rationally," then it argualy would still exist today. In fact, it's indisputable that it made war with too many people in too short a period, was ganged up on and was absolutely crushed. It's empire lasted a mere 12 years. Hitler invaded Russia too quickly, and he did so because he was scared of the alleged menace posed by slavic peoples in Russia, who were also bolsheviks. That does not strike me as rational behavior in the slightest.
No.

It was the strongest state at the time (in europe), it had the most prestigious and charismatic leader, Europe was still weak and damaged from WW1, and Germany itself was deep into military industry, incapable to sustain intself in other industrial fields. It was a rational decision of a state. Ideology served as the means. It could be ANY ideology. It's just that that particular ideology served it's purpose better at the time. The fact that Nazi Germany lost eventually has absolutely nothing to do with Ideologies.

You're ignorning the historical context of the time. Bolshevism and communism were seen as a threat to the great powers since its inception in the 1860s. Communism in Russia was the result of decades and decades of thought and organized protest. Lenin and Trotsky didn't appear out of nowhere and just think communism was a good idea to placate the masses. They were building on a very real movement that had protested the Tsar for a long time.

Communism itself was a very itnernational movement that spanned boundaries in ways that are difficult for us to conceive of today (because there aren't many global ideas anymore).

When Lenin came to power, he took a lot of flak from communists for implementing capitalism, but he cited to Marx, saying that Russia had to move through capitalism before it could get to communism. this was called the "New Economic Policy"
When Stalin came to power, he had to purge a lot of these people as well as Trotsky. He was a bit less ideological when it came to communism -- but at the same time, he also collectived farming, a highly ideological decision which resulted in widespread famine and killed millions, especially in the Ukraine.

So I don't think it's accurate to say "there were no ideas." Communism guided Russian policy well through Stalin. After Stalin died, I would agree that the dictatorship in charge became less ideological and more concerned with basic survival. It wasn't until the 1970s that the US made peace with China to block the USSR, and only AFTER China and the USSR became enemies in the late 1960s. I agree that that was realpolitik at work. But it only happened after the ideological glue failed to bind CHina and the USSR.
Lenin had little to do indeed with Stalin and the post 1922 Russia. Lenins ideology was one of the Just War theories. His theories are considered an example of Marxism put to action. After pluralism and realism, Lenins marxism is the only other approach. But that had nothing to do with Cold war russia or the post 1922 Russia. And up until now, it has never benn used, except when writing books.

Once again, ideas served as a motive for the people of Russia to follow their Government. The state chose and decided in a realistic and totally rationalistic way, having absolutely nothing to do with ideologies. Communism, or rather, the pretext of Communism, was used to motivate the people, simple propaganda, nothing else. Not one move made by the USSR has anything to do with Lenins marxistic IR approach.
I'm not sure how you can separate the two. I think my basic point is that it's not always accurate to assume that states act rationally in the international arena. What does it mean to act "rationally"? To put your long term interests ahead of your short term interests? In the case of nazi germany, I am once again reminded that perhaps one of the most powerful countries that ever existed lasted only 12 years. So they did not appear to act very rationally.

At best, realism seems like a "catch-all" explanation -- and thus justification -- for why states engage in cut-throat behavior at the expense of other states.
Wow wow wait a sec. What philosophy are you talking about? Structural Realism is a theory, an approach, with axioms and deductions. It's strategy. It's like maths. Same with Pluralism and it's theories. there is no explanation, this is international relations, there are no philosophers here.

It's not as if you can debate against the existence of one of the theories. You only choose to use it, or not use it.

When constructing political and military strategies, any analyst can use whatever he desires. Realism and precisely Structural Realism, is used most of the times to describe war situations.


At best, realism seems like a "catch-all" explanation -- and thus justification -- for why states engage in cut-throat behavior at the expense of other states. Henry Kissigner is a wanted war criminal in many countries. not the spokesperson I'd want for a philosophy, personally.
Yes. I despise that guy as well. But he was a diplomacy genius.
 
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Here we go... this is gonna be one looooong post.
Mein Kampf was simply a propaganda book. His supposed ideologies about the Aryan race were directed towards the people, not those that created his strategies for him. He even recollects: "I want my youth strong. I do not want it to possess useless knowledge". He was basically creating expendable ships. The Aryan race idea was the means to convince the people to accept the choice of domination that Germany had planned as a goal. Its started that goal in full conscience because it judged that it could win.

Agreed that it was propaganda; however, I would still contend that the propaganda influenced international relations. This is why Russia was targeted at all, as opposed to, say, Italy or the Balkans. Hitler was convinced in his mind that Russians were subhumans, so he planned their elimination, and enacted that belief as soon as he could, and not as rationally as he might have. If world domination is your goal, why not maintain a fragile peace with Russia and send the German ARmy into Saudi Arabia and take those oil fields from the British? Deal with Russia later.

No.

It was the strongest state at the time (in europe), it had the most prestigious and charismatic leader, Europe was still weak and damaged from WW1, and Germany itself was deep into military industry, incapable to sustain intself in other industrial fields. It was a rational decision of a state. Ideology served as the means. It could be ANY ideology. It's just that that particular ideology served it's purpose better at the time. The fact that Nazi Germany lost eventually has absolutely nothing to do with Ideologies.

Right, but my point is just that you see the ideology very much at work in the choices made by the state. The reason Nazi Germany lost was very much on account of its ideology. Hitler was forcing his Generals to spend resources killing Jews at the 11th hour instead of using the rails to send in reinforcements -- he was that convinced of his own propaganda.

Once again, ideas served as a motive for the people of Russia to follow their Government. The state chose and decided in a realistic and totally rationalistic way, having absolutely nothing to do with ideologies. Communism, or rather, the pretext of Communism, was used to motivate the people, simple propaganda, nothing else. Not one move made by the USSR has anything to do with Lenins marxistic IR approach.

Ok. I concede that Soviet Russia did not rely on ideology in it's international relations. I think that's fair, and probably accurate. I think their approach was different than what Trotsky would have done had he been in power ("spread the revolution"). But the very fact that people like Trotsky exist at all, to me, is an indication that idologically-driven foreign policy can take place.

Wow wow wait a sec. What philosophy are you talking about? Structural Realism is a theory, an approach, with axioms and deductions. It's strategy. It's like maths. Same with Pluralism and it's theories. there is no explanation, this is international relations, there are no philosophers here.

It's not as if you can debate against the existence of one of the theories existed. You only choose to use it, or not use it.

When constructing political and military strategies, any analyst can use whatever he desires. Realism and precisely Structural Realism, is used most of the times to describe war situations.

I see what you're saying, and I agree that maybe it has some predictive value. It strikes me as cynical, it's assumptions, and maybe that's why I have such a reaction to it. But maybe the assumptions work. On the other hand, how can you understand N. Korea without understanding Kim Jong il and his paranoia with self-reliance and independence from any other country? Or modern France without the domestic constraints that favor a certain foreign policy over another? To me, the domestic machinery and the foreign policy outcome seem to go hand in hand. All too often, you see this work in the other direction: leaders going to war so as to influence domestic policy.
 
Agreed that it was propaganda; however, I would still contend that the propaganda influenced international relations. This is why Russia was targeted at all, as opposed to, say, Italy or the Balkans. Hitler was convinced in his mind that Russians were subhumans, so he planned their elimination, and enacted that belief as soon as he could, and not as rationally as he might have. If world domination is your goal, why not maintain a fragile peace with Russia and send the German ARmy into Saudi Arabia and take those oil fields from the British? Deal with Russia later.
I cannot say what Hitler had in his mind, for the only testimony I have in my hands is Mein Kampf, which I consider to be just a propaganda book.
And Italy was his ally, a Fascist state under Mussolini's rule.

As for the choice of marching to war with Russia, it was a strategic move to both join the seas and command one of the most important geostrategical locations. I could assume that Hitler would not want to spread his troops further than the middle east before acquiring Baku. Plus Ukraine is an extremely important geopolitical region. Germany considered Ukraine and Greece to be very important strategic locations.


But the very fact that people like Trotsky exist at all, to me, is an indication that idologically-driven foreign policy can take place.
It could take place. And i suppose a realist would say that Ideology alone is not a factor enough. But if you ask me personally, I don't know. I think It could take place.
On the other hand, if you wish to study a war with pluralism as a basis, ideology can indeed be mentioned as an important factor.

I see what you're saying, and I agree that maybe it has some predictive value. It strikes me as cynical, it's assumptions, and maybe that's why I have such a reaction to it. But maybe the assumptions work. On the other hand, how can you understand N. Korea without understanding Kim Jong il and his paranoia with self-reliance and independence from any other country? Or modern France without the domestic constraints that favor a certain foreign policy over another? To me, the domestic machinery and the foreign policy outcome seem to go hand in hand. All too often, you see this work in the other direction: leaders going to war so as to influence domestic policy.
Of course it's cynical. It's evil. But it works. The point is to predict and overcome (or destroy). I despise it, but I have to use it. What you're propposing is mostly depicted in Pluralistic theories (ex. integration theories). They are both just tools to be used for analysis and planning. It depends on the situation which one to use and why. But I, being a total pessimist, have long since decided that realism is the more effective one. :p

But all that are far away from saying that ideas initiate wars. It's just so much more than that. That was the reason of my initial post.
 
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I cannot say what Hitler had in his mind, for the only testimony I have in my hands is Mein Kampf, which I consider to be just a propaganda book.
And ahem... I dont mean to sound mean, but Italy was his ally, a Fascist state under Mussolini's rule, while the Balkans were already conquered at the time he invaded Russia.

Right, I'm well aware of that. But he didn't mention Italy or the Balkans in Mein Kampf. As the wiki article I cited pointed out, the intention to invade Russia was written down at least a decade before it was initiated.

But all that are far away from saying that ideas initiate wars. It's just so much more than that. That was the reason of my initial post.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree -- or maybe we just differ on what counts as an "idea." Lust for power is an idea, as well, right? It's not written anywhere that a nation exists to gain power. I think it's fair to state that the idea that a nation gets to kill other people to further it's own national interests is an ideology in itself. I think that's what durentu was trying to say as well (not that I will speak for anyone).

So, you could certainly imagine a world where such an idea was repugnant. We don't think it's acceptable to kill people on the street; I don't think it's out of the question to think of a world where a nation doesn't get to bomb another nation just because it wants to.
 
Right, I'm well aware of that. But he didn't mention Italy or the Balkans in Mein Kampf. As the wiki article I cited pointed out, the intention to invade Russia was written down at least a decade before it was initiated.

Yeah, that was a mistake on my part, I misinterpreted what you said. I edited it but it was too late. I suppose the rest of my post is enough though.


Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree -- or maybe we just differ on what counts as an "idea." Lust for power is an idea, as well, right? It's not written anywhere that a nation exists to gain power. I think it's fair to state that the idea that a nation gets to kill other people to further it's own national interests is an ideology in itself. I think that's what durentu was trying to say as well (not that I will speak for anyone).

If you put it that way, then yes. But I thought he was reffering to ideologies as a factor in general. Maybe I also misinterpreted his words.

So, you could certainly imagine a world where such an idea was repugnant. We don't think it's acceptable to kill people on the street; I don't think it's out of the question to think of a world where a nation doesn't get to bomb another nation just because it wants to.

Well, of course, but I would say that the chances are low. Considering what my eyes see everyday, I've lost my faith on words like 'Just' and 'Beliefs", especially in IRs. Which is why I want to conquer the planet and change things one day :m194:
 
Actually, this is a very probable event - war - in the next two to three years. And a big one.

The economic conditions are pretty much a mirror image of what happened before WWII. Many expect it.

I would say there are three primary places.

Eastern Europe, Middle East and Asia.
 
Actually, this is a very probable event - war - in the next two to three years. And a big one.

The economic conditions are pretty much a mirror image of what happened before WWII. Many expect it.

I would say there are three primary places.

Eastern Europe, Middle East and Asia.

I would like to believe we have learned from that experience that war = bad, but we probably haven't. Still, WWII was just as much about the countries that won leaving the countries that lost destroyed without any help, as it is about economics.

Then again, depending on how you view it, this could just be one of the facets of economics.
 
Conquest is just one idea. But it's not how it's advertised. The advertisement is usually more like

"My countrymen, I know that you have suffered. Stand with me and we will right the wrongs in our country and make it safe for our families"

This is effective to any desperate people.

The ideas I'm talking about are all ideas not just the political ones. Every idea in this world comes through in someone's head. And in someone's head, there are the ideas to solve problems. Which of these ideas are subscribed to is another matter, but generally depends on the climate of the general population.

Resource depletion - throughout history, whenever this happens, another resource is found to provide the same or better utility. fire, steam, coal, nuclear, plasma, biological fuel, hydrogen, nanobots, yeast bacteria etc.

over population - we've already proven that we can goto the moon. The next settlement will be on mars. Given the basic instinct of survival (we don't like to die) and reproduction (we like to fuck), the next real estate boom will have to be on another planet or underwater.

climate change - the actual problem is stated differently depending on who you ask. If you ask the politicians and meteorologists, they'll say that it's true. If you ask a geologist, they'll say, so what. It's normal if you look at the earth's long term history. Even if the world's climate goes in either direction, there are scores of ideas that can alter the climate. one promising one is call cloud seeding. Another is the rapid growth of certain types of plankton.


As you can see, ideas are made for more than persuasion in the realm of political conquest. Ideas are good or bad depending on which side you're on. But there are some ideas that pertain to every human. Compassion, wisdom, love, persistence, freedom, independence, human rights, etc. Many fight to uphold these and in the end they always win. Ghandi's quote comes to mind.

WW3 will be temporary. The annihilation of the human species? We definitely have the ability. But that doesn't mean that these nukes will hit the earth unimpeded. We do have technology at our defense. With the rise of advanced robotics, radar, and physics, we can improve the odds of such devastation. If a nuclear war did come about, we wouldn't be sitting ducks.

With the materials available to us in the modern age, traditional weapons of war, including nukes, are inefficient. Many military experts think that the next world war will be waged in cyber space. Many basic needs depends on computers to function correctly. These computers are also interconnected, some over the internet lines. Some are closed circuit, some are encrypted etc but the masterful general wins the war without drawing the sword. You disrupt the other country's vital computer link and bring them to a crawl. After you've taken out their cyber infrastructure, you can disrupt their physical infrastructure too with regular bombs and such.

As no doubt you people have guessed, I'm an NT. my strengths are in making the nature confluent with society. To keep an objective mind and I'm ruled by logic and reasoning.

Most of you are NF, and your area of expertise is diplomacy. Something that I have major difficulty with.

Even if we put our heads together, it's only half of the resources. We need the artisans and the guardians to help deliver the ideas and solutions. All of us need to individuate, and then come together to save ourselves.

The trick for the future is how are we going to come together if at all.
If we all came together and said "Our destiny is harmony. Our mission statement is to produce and enact a policy that is fair to everyone and fair in the now and in the future. Failure is not an option. And we need this plan in 12 months"

Do we go backwards and squabble on details? or do we really mash our heads together and figure it all out? But don't worry, we already have the solution. It's the constitution.

100 heads put together towards a single purpose is near impossible. Try getting just 5 heads together towards a common purpose. But when it works and when it happens, it's wonderful. And terrifying.

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. think of it -- always" - Mahatma Ghandi

Fundamentally, I'm saying that the potential for WW3 is there. I'm not sure if it will happen. It does depend on all of us. Do we look upon each other with fear of the unknown? Or do we invalidate fear and offer the other a smile and a beverage?

Sadly, the fear route is much easier, which leads to war. The compassion route is correct, but we humans killed all those people. Perhaps we aren't ready for a better existence. Maybe we are and we're waiting for the old people to die. Perhaps my next reincarnation will have better luck.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace" - Jimi Hendrix.

The human genome project discovered that 99.9% of DNA in all humans is the same. But we fight on the difference of 0.01%. Why? Seems so stupid to me. And in the modern world, we can't afford stupid anymore. Spiritually, economically, mentally, or politically.

Personally, If a plan doesn't meet these criteria, I tend to dismiss it.
1. Any policy that favors the present or the future, and favors a special group or the general public. All policies must benefit the present and the future, and special groups and all groups. (free market)
2. The policy must be founded on compassion, confluent with the above criteria.
 
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