Hopeless? INTP and INFJ -- HELP

[shampoo]

Hi there!

I've come seeking your insights in what seems to me to be a hopeless situation. I share a house with four other people, one of which is my lover of two years (ENTP,) and another who is his other lover of ten years (INFJ.) We three are all polyamorous without any rules/restrictions. I have a very intimate connection with my ENTP, and it is often a very easy connection because we think so similarly, share the same values, and we both have tremendous amounts of fun playing and bouncing ideas of of each other. Ms. INFJ, on the other hand, I have never connected to. I do not understand her, and she does not understand me.

Here are some ways in which she and I misconnect:

• She will ask me questions like "Do you know what this (food in the fridge) is?" when she actually knows what it is, that it's mine, and is of the opinion that it's been in there too long /is in her way. In the moment I feel like I'm being pointlessly interrogated and respond to the literal question. Later I will understand what happened and not care that she worked herself up over the idea of what I should do with my food, and her indirect actions come across to me as passive-aggressive.
  
• She will seemingly at random decide that she hates me/ is jealous of me, or admires me and wants to be my friend, and I never know which one I'll get until I see her face. The Jekyll/Hide switch varies by the minute. When she is in seething hate mode I just ignore her and she never actually confronts me. When she's in nice mode, it comes across to me as validation-seeking rather that genuine interest in me and I therefore don't have any interest in opening up. On my part I treat her with an even indifference.
  
• Working with her on projects is difficult because she's a perfectionist who loves rules and rigid systems, loves to direct others, and she attaches herself to a particular outcome which then sends her into emotional tumult when it fails to actualize. She also seems to attach herself to one plan of action and won't even consider any other angle. I don't like to plan in any detail, hate to be directed, absolutely love it when unexpected events happen because I am challenged and can adapt, am not emotionally invested, and feel stymied by rules and rigidity.
  
• She will feign helplessness and want to be taken care of all the time. She treats ENTP guy like he is her knight in shining armor who should do everything for her so that her delicate princess hands won't have to move. She can't do anything without constant reassurance, and suffers from constant and causeless anxiety. Needless to say, witnessing this behavior does not make me eager to get closer to her.

I have had discussions with my ENTP about this, and he has the same challenges with Ms. INFJ as I do, which has caused numerous relationship troubles, but he has far more energy and compassion to pour into her than I. He distances himself from her when her behavior is too irrational or nasty and simply waits for her to get off of her self-powered drama-coaster while being distantly supportive.

I realize that being indifferent towards someone I have to interact with on a daily basis is far from ideal, but I am rather stumped by this situation. Under most circumstances she is someone with whom I just wouldn't interact with at all. I have very limited energy for dealing with people I'm not close to, and she definitely drains me in that way. I also wonder if there is something redemptive in her personality I am not seeing because of confirmation bias. I don't expect to be best friends with her, but I would like to not constantly ignore her. She is, after all, a big part of my ENTP's life.

Advice?

What do you think the strengths of being an INFJ in general are?

Is there a positive side to the negative behavior I'm witnessing?

If you're an INFJ in a relationship with an INTP, what does the INTP like about you?

Is there something more constructive I could be doing?

 

[Bird]

She doesn't like you and she's not okay with you fucking her boyfriend.

She's going to be nasty until you leave.


It's not about your food or this or that it's that he is hers and that home is
hers and it was hers before you were there. She's making it known that
you should leave.

 

[Trifoilum]

This entire experience sort of validates my fear about polyamorous relationship.... in the end, power plays will leak through.

I'm not going to answer the first question because it feels:
a) redundant, if you feel you have to ask a random set of people about the good side of someone (that only, presumably, shares a code) and then applying it to her, then you're not close to her in the first place and you don't intend to.
b) in other ways, also falsely validating. Whilst I want to help, I don't think generalization will help anything.

Now as per the situation itself.. it is, in essence, disturbed sensibilities. Both you and her.

Now, do take a caveat : I'm having a bad relationship with an INTP in my life and some part of mine can be applied to yours.... But there are some amounts of projection and thus it might not be the case in your relationship. After all you only make one post.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a polyamorous relationship relies heavily on openness and communication between all parties...

Which, forgive me for judging, from your post I don't get the impression that you have talked to her about it. And apparently neither does the ENTP; especially since he lived with her longer. I understand if, perhaps, you 'don't want to deal with irrationality / cray', but right now you (and the ENTP) are simply festering it. Then she disturbs your sensitivity, and she became the wrong party.

It's...quite irking, but that's my own projection talking.
If what you're doing = what my INTP is doing, the feeling of "WTH? I thought you said it's alright? Why am I suddenly the wrong party for not doing it in the way you want?" is...horrible. It destroys trust, and raises mistrust that 'she had a clear idea on what she'd like it to be, she just don't care enough to tell it until it's too late.'
Put it like this:

Me, I likes rules and rigidity >>
The INTP, on the other hand, don't. She don't plan, she love unexpected situations >>
That gives an appearance that she doesn't mind things going unplanned or laissez-faire...much >>
which gives a 'freer', 'do-whatever-you-want' feel. >>
I 'move' around (in your case, it would be with the ENTP and the house; things that you had described) >>
because I perceived I have the freedom to.>>
As someone who attempted to raise clear, visible boundaries and hardheaded in my goals, her lack of visible planning and/or unclear boundaries makes it unclear how far can I go. >>
So I blindly 'walk around'. >>
that movement, however, disturbs her.>>
Perhaps by crossing few lines she doesn't agree, or she dislikes.>>
She feel angry (which, don't get me wrong, is justified. From her perspective)>>
She complained. >>
I felt betrayed or worse, backstabbed. >>

That's what's happening to me. Clearly everyone wins.

Then there comes the implicit judging. Another thing I'm going to judge you on is that I noticed the tags for this thread gives 'bipolar' as one of them; when from what I'm seeing here, she doesn't give any impression of a bipolar. The ones I'm seeing to be the 'most' bipolar-ish is the hot-and-cold treatment towards you, and I think feelings are fluctuative; someone can dislike you (on one thing) then like you (on another thing) in different times, situations, aspect. Does she really is diagnosed with bipolar disorder, or it's just a term you're liberally using to describe her?


From my take, what I'm catching is that you already made an implicit judgment about her and her behaviour... And again, from all those, I don't get the impression that you actually like the INFJ as a person. Only...at best, tolerating her presence. 'As long as she doesn't bother me'. I wonder if it's a healthy thing to have.....

My question is: Have you talked to her? About your dislike with her behaviour, and what you would like her to do? Have she done the same, talking to you, telling you what she wanted to do and what she wanted you to do?
If don't, do so. You will fight-- oh yes you will, but in the longer run it will be better for both of you because you both will have some ideas about what to do and what not to do...and the truth will shine.

If you do, then ignore this particular advice.

Is there a positive side to the negative behavior I'm witnessing?

There always is. But related to the first, I shouldn't tell you if you don't see anything good from her behaviour; at best it will work as reverse psychology.

If you're an INFJ in a relationship with an INTP, what does the INTP like about you?

Hmmmmmmm, from what I'd read it seems to be both cerebral and emotional-- INFJs are often emotionally caring and mature-- with the cerebral capability to back it up. That is not to say people don't have their shits-- most INFJs do, and they are cursed with a lot of them in fact, but they are often aware about it, and mostly are working to take care of it

Is there something more constructive I could be doing?

At this point I don't know if anything could be done (see Bird's post. I find it rather true-- it's already tainted.)

You probably can leave her alone, but at this point I don't know if that's going to do anything, especially when something important like a relationship is at stake (mine lost its stake, and the moment it lost its stake, oh the freedom it gives me.)

The healthiest thing I can think of is to bring the issue out in the open. While there's still a stake to protect, both for her and for you. However I'm not sure if I'm projecting myself or not...and if I am, that bringing out the issue serves as the last straw.

It may be more constructive if you can see her good side, then try to encourage her good side more than you admonish her bad side ; but at this point I don't know if that can be anything other than a political move.

Best of luck..

 

[shampoo]

The polyamory thing is kind of a given for all three of us. Aside from the ENTP boyfriend we both live with, she has five other boyfriends that she sees regularly. She has been actively polyamorous for ~15 years. . . which is longer than I've been interested in dating.

I don't see her jealousy issues as having anything to do with me specifically -- they stem from her own insecurities and self loathing. If I wasn't around it'd be someone else.

Ostensibly she wants me around and does make efforts to be nice when she's feeling grounded. What I was hoping for from this forum was to gain a better understanding of her so that I do not just automatically dismiss her as I tend to do.

 

[Korg]

I dunno, man.

Polyamory is one thing -- having your beaver double as a revolving door for six different dicks is another. I don't know her at all, but taking your OP and putting it in the context of generalizations and stereotypes, she just sounds like a big, bottomless black hole of unquenchable neediness. The fact you don't play into it as much as she'd like (need) probably agitates her greatly. Moreover, you're an INTP and likely have somewhere between extremely little to no patience for that kind of bullshit.

Of course, if you're really looking for a reason to find her tolerable, the best one is this: she's another human being. MBTI will probably be inadequate in this regard.

But at the end of the day, you two probably just plain old don't like each other for a variety of reasons with faults on both sides. It happens all the time with roommates and I can only imagine it's exacerbated by two other people living there as well as the polyamory thing. Most likely, you'll just have to tolerate each other until someone moves out.

 

[Quiet]

It sounds like you dont really like her and that the only reason she is in your life if is because of your mutual friend. And it sounds like she doesnt like you either. Its hard to like people that dont like you.

I havent had a polyamorous relationship but i find them interesting. I cant see how it can work if all parties dont like each other atleast.

Anyone with possesive and jealous tendencies as well as insecurities is probably a bad candiate for a successful polyamorous relationship. There isnt much you can do about her jealousies/insecurities/bitchiness. You can chose whether you want to put up with or not though. It doesnt sound like a good situation for you.

In regards to her personality type, i think its probably irelevant. I dont think any of the behaviours that you described sound particulary typical of INFJ. She sounds somewhat unhealthy.

The only thing you can really do if you want to understand her better and improve you relationship with her is to make a conscious effort to engage. Be open to 'liking' her, listen share, communicate, ask questions, give her the beneift of the doubt when she's being a pain in the ass. It may only be onesided at first but if theres any hope of friendship she will eventually reciprocate. I guess one of the major issues you guys face is that its only because of the ENTP that you are trying in the first place. Forget about the ENTP and try simply for her sake.

I can appreciate you wanting to improve your living sitution, but i wonder if its worth is. What is your ideal outcome?

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

Anyone with possesive and jealous tendencies as well as insecurities is probably a bad candiate for a successful polyamorous relationship.

It sounds like her entire reason for a poly relationship was to secure a situation of being wanted (by means of redundancy and failsafes). And to be fair, she's not a good candidate for a successful normal relationship.

 

[Quiet]

It sounds like her entire reason for a poly relationship was to secure a situation of being wanted (by means of redundancy and failsafes). And to be fair, she's not a good candidate for a successful normal relationship.

Makes sense, i agree.

 

[shampoo]

I don't think generalization will help anything.

I understand better through generalizing. If nothing else it motivates me into action.

Which, forgive me for judging, from your post I don't get the impression that you have talked to her about it. And apparently neither does the ENTP; especially since he lived with her longer. I understand if, perhaps, you 'don't want to deal with irrationality / cray', but right now you (and the ENTP) are simply festering it

I have talked with her about it, and the ENTP has had many, many extensive conversations with her about it. She deperately wants to be rid of the "crazy" behaviors, and actually has been making remarkable progress in that direction by becoming more accepting of herself. I understand more talking on her part and mine would be advisable. I am completely ill-equipped to do that, however, which is not to say that I won't try -- just that it might be messy and will certainly be a personal growth opportunity.

Me, I likes rules and rigidity >>
The INTP, on the other hand, don't. She don't plan, she love unexpected situations >>
That gives an appearance that she doesn't mind things going unplanned or laissez-faire...much >>
which gives a 'freer', 'do-whatever-you-want' feel. >>
I 'move' around (in your case, it would be with the ENTP and the house; things that you had described) >>
because I perceived I have the freedom to.>>
As someone who attempted to raise clear, visible boundaries and hardheaded in my goals, her lack of visible planning and/or unclear boundaries makes it unclear how far can I go. >>
So I blindly 'walk around'. >>
that movement, however, disturbs her.>>
Perhaps by crossing few lines she doesn't agree, or she dislikes.>>
She feel angry (which, don't get me wrong, is justified. From her perspective)>>
She complained. >>
I felt betrayed or worse, backstabbed. >>

This is very helpful. Thanks!

Then there comes the implicit judging. Another thing I'm going to judge you on is that I noticed the tags for this thread gives 'bipolar' as one of them; when from what I'm seeing here, she doesn't give any impression of a bipolar. The ones I'm seeing to be the 'most' bipolar-ish is the hot-and-cold treatment towards you, and I think feelings are fluctuative; someone can dislike you (on one thing) then like you (on another thing) in different times, situations, aspect. Does she really is diagnosed with bipolar disorder, or it's just a term you're liberally using to describe her?

I love that you're calling me out on that! No she is not diagnosed with BPD, and it's an unfair box for me to throw her into.

From my take, what I'm catching is that you already made an implicit judgment about her and her behaviour... And again, from all those, I don't get the impression that you actually like the INFJ as a person. Only...at best, tolerating her presence. 'As long as she doesn't bother me'. I wonder if it's a healthy thing to have.....

Yes. I have made a judgment and I'd like to challenge it. No, I don't like her. I have never *tried* to like anyone, and the idea of doing so is at first an unsavory one. Talking with random people on the internet is part of my process to convince myself to go ahead and try.

My question is: Have you talked to her? About your dislike with her behaviour, and what you would like her to do? Have she done the same, talking to you, telling you what she wanted to do and what she wanted you to do?

I strongly dislike the idea of telling *anyone* what to do. I have no concept of something that she should be. I can point out behaviors that I observe that make me not want to be around her. I think that she probably has an idea of what I should be and it would be doubtless be useful to hear that along with whatever she doesn't like about what I do.

The healthiest thing I can think of is to bring the issue out in the open.

Yes, I've brought it out before, but I think it's worth doing again.

Best of luck..

And to you. Thanks for the input.

 

[Trifoilum]

I understand better through generalizing. If nothing else it motivates me into action.

And I understand the feeling. However the net you're throwing is too wide a net; you were asking about strengths of INFJs in general. However, we aren't a hive mind, we have different emotions, experience, emotional states, traumas, skills, cultures....it will make a very different set of strengths.

I have talked with her about it, and the ENTP has had many, many extensive conversations with her about it. She deperately wants to be rid of the "crazy" behaviors, and actually has been making remarkable progress in that direction by becoming more accepting of herself. I understand more talking on her part and mine would be advisable. I am completely ill-equipped to do that, however, which is not to say that I won't try -- just that it might be messy and will certainly be a personal growth opportunity.

Best of luck, and if I may apply one more projection-- she probably realized where and when she did wrong.
And in vague terms, what she has left is a reason to stay.

I strongly dislike the idea of telling *anyone* what to do. I have no concept of something that she should be. I can point out behaviors that I observe that make me not want to be around her. I think that she probably has an idea of what I should be and it would be doubtless be useful to hear that along with whatever she doesn't like about what I do.

It's not particularly 'telling' her what to do -- I don't suggest pushing her to conform and/or follow what you want.. But you both have to know what the others want.
In a healthy relationship, that doesn't entail pushing one party to follow the other. Ideally.

 

[Trifoilum]

It sounds like her entire reason for a poly relationship was to secure a situation of being wanted (by means of redundancy and failsafes). And to be fair, she's not a good candidate for a successful normal relationship.

I somewhat agreed.
Although there are differences between normal relationship and polyamorous one..
I can see that need of being wanted being fulfilled faster, but the upkeep's going to be much, much harder.

 

[Lexika]

Hi there!

I've come seeking your insights in what seems to me to be a hopeless situation. I share a house with four other people, one of which is my lover of two years (ENTP,) and another who is his other lover of ten years (INFJ.) We three are all polyamorous without any rules/restrictions. I have a very intimate connection with my ENTP, and it is often a very easy connection because we think so similarly, share the same values, and we both have tremendous amounts of fun playing and bouncing ideas of of each other. Ms. INFJ, on the other hand, I have never connected to. I do not understand her, and she does not understand me.

I don't know how much exposure you've had to socionics, but the intertype relationships can explain at least partially the reaction you're getting from this INFJ.

You and her are in benefit relations where she is in role of benefactor towards you. Benefactors are able to see the weakest points in their beneficiaries. If relations are otherwise amiable and supportive, being especially aware of beneficiary's faults encourages the benefactor to take care of beneficiary (INFJ wants to take care of and protect his/her INTP). However, when relations are going sour then beneficiary's faults are amplified and benefactor instead of feeling supportive becomes annoyed. The beneficiary then seems somehow inept, unworthy, whiny, and irritating. This INFJ doesn't like you so you're living out the second scenario with her, with her being passive-aggressive and patronizing towards you.

I think this has to do less with your types and more with personal likes an dislikes. Benefit relations in general can go either way -- from delightful and supportive to patronizing and irksome. Sounds like this particular INFJ doesn't like you, and vice versa -- your polyamory relationship with this pair isn't working out.

I don't see her jealousy issues as having anything to do with me specifically -- they stem from her own insecurities and self loathing. If I wasn't around it'd be someone else.

She might be type 1 INFJ with the strong inner critic. Kind of overlaps with you saying that she is bossy, stubborn, and sees only one right way to do things.

 

[Honey]

Now where are those darn antibiotics and yeast infection creams.

 

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

Your problem is not her personality type, it's this love triangle, which is always bound to end up hurting in my opinion.