Five stages of grief

[uuu]

The Kübler–Ross five stages of grief are:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance.

@Sometimes Yeah brought up these stages in this thread about losing a friend, and I didn't want to derail that thread, but I was hoping to have a discussion about these five stages of grief, whether they hold up empirically, and whether they ring true to experience.

Reading about the five stages on Wikipedia, it mentions that many psychologists suggest that the stages of grief are too simplistic, that not everyone necessarily moves through all of those stages in that order, and that the theory is backed by anecdata rather than science. I could've seen that coming—the theory is too elegant to be true in the narrow sense.

But I thought the more incisive criticism mentioned there was this one: that in the Kübler–Ross model, "The line is blurred between description and prescription." I have noticed in my own life that when someone experiences loss, people often invoke the grief stages in a prescriptive sense, urging the bereaved to move beyond denial and anger and learn to "accept" and assign meaning to the loss. You know, when god closes one door he opens another, etc. This prescriptive mentality seems especially true with kinds of losses that are not customarily labeled as "grief" but nonetheless instill similar a similar emotion: things like getting dumped by your lover, losing a job, etc.

A dear friend of mine lost his little brother in a tragic and unexplainable accident last year. In supporting him through the grieving process, it is hard to map his emotions (at least those that he expressed) to the five stages. He never exhibited any denial: he is a very pragmatic person, and used (due to his childhood experiences) to having to be the calm voice in the room when emotions run high. He never seemed angry. He had nobody to bargain with.

Basically, he went straight to depression and stayed there, and the depression got worse and worse and was exacerbated by his family's inability to process the loss; eventually they started taking things out on him, and he realized the only way to break the cycle would be to move out, which he did.

In his case, I think that it is likely that in many years, he will see his little brother's death as the catalyst that laid bare his family's codependency and emotional manipulation. This is a type of acceptance, I guess. But it is far from the storybook "And then god opened door 2, behind which was ..." suggested by the Kübler–Ross model.

In your experience, are there stages to grief? Should they be regarded prescriptively or descriptively? Are stage-based models of grief useful in supporting the bereaved?

 

[aeon]

I’ve never experienced #1 – #3. I do #5 immediately, and then #4 from that point going forward for a while until it stops, and then unexpectedly pops up from time to time for years afterward.

I asked my mother about this, and her experience is much the same.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ian

 

[Asa]

I've read that we can experience the stages of grief in any order and more than one at the same time.

Your friend wouldn't necessarily tell you about all the private thoughts and inner struggles he experiences. How people behave on the surface may not reflect what they are really going through, especially in their darkest moments. If he has any of these thoughts, they can pass in a moment, too.
Wishing to take someone's place, or fantasizing about going back in time to change an outcome is bargaining. Finding religion is bargaining, too.
People are often angry about how unfair a death was. People are often angry about the cause (like the "fuck cancer" movement), or at a person who was involved (in an accident), or at the doctors for failing to save someone.
Denial shows up as, "This can't be happening," or, "This has to be a nightmare." It doesn't mean the person isn't fully aware that the death happened.

A lot of people (including me) cope by masking in public and acting as normal as possible while keeping their struggles private.

 

[dZpADTLrPmX4c]

No, I can't say these describe me. If there's something to be gained or somebody to speak with, I may bargain with them; this can be like daydreaming as Asa describes or more directly
Denial, hmmm. You could say it's a subconscious process perhaps? like there was never a time after my dad died that I wasn't fully in-touch with that. But there have always been nights I dreamed about him - this past night even, I dreamed about him. And sometimes these dreams have felt so real I woke up looking for him, because my mind hadn't quite caught up yet. He never feels 'far' and like he could come through the door at any moment. This could all be denial in a sense.
I may or may not get angry [over loss]. But typically, no. Anger is a very difficult emotion for me to conjure.
Depression. It's hard to say. Like with denial my mourning never exactly stops.
If by Acceptance you mean, I've found peace with it and it no longer causes me grief or I stop missing them, then no. It becomes part of a background noise and not too unbearable.

There was a time in my late twenties where I was so numb, I rarely felt any of these things. It's not the case anymore but feels like it could be true for others.
And if needed, mourning can be postponed and embraced at a later time. This was necessary for me once after a breakup left me stranded in Wisconsin one January night, with no vehicle and everything I knew a thousand miles away. To me, this wouldn't match any of the choices listed, and neither was it running or burying things - which tend to involve a conscious or unconscious repression. It could've been shock, but at least to me that doesn't feel right either.
I don't doubt there are others that do this too.

There are times where we weren't ever strongly attached to begin with, or if we saw it coming have already 'let go'. In those cases how we grieve may look markedly different.

 

[Anomalous]

I've always hated that bullshit. I'm not sure why. Something about categorising people's pain into predictable and observable stages like that seems cold, as if they're making an overly generalized example of someone rather than empathising with them. It trivialises their suffering.

 

[Wyote]

I've always hated that bullshit. I'm not sure why. Something about categorising people's pain into predictable and observable stages like that seems cold, as if they're making an overly generalized example of someone rather than empathising with them. It trivialises their suffering.

As someone who has done a lot of grieving in their life, I kind of agree with you here.
While the outline is kind of helpful and does give some very general notions about the process of grief,
it's going to be experienced very differently from person to person and experience to experience.

Seems most people agree as well

it mentions that many psychologists suggest that the stages of grief are too simplistic, that not everyone necessarily moves through all of those stages in that order, and that the theory is backed by anecdata rather than science. I could've seen that coming—the theory is too elegant to be true in the narrow sense.

 

[John K]

n your experience, are there stages to grief? Should they be regarded prescriptively or descriptively? Are stage-based models of grief useful in supporting the bereaved?

It's got to be a statistical model surely? In other words, it's like saying the average height of men is such and such - but we know that very few people will actually be that height as a percentage of the whole.

There are so many ways that grief can be encountered, and each of us responds differently to the circumstances. I think whether people go through these stages or not depends on what has happened. If someone is unexpectedly let go from their job, then I've definitely seen all five stages, but not in such a neat progression, and it's different for each person impacted. There is certainly initial stunned denial, and there is usually a point of acceptance because people need to find another job and move on, but what happens in between can be cloudy, messy stuff. These things happen quite often in corporate restructuring that seems to take place every few years, and when you have many people suffering the same sort of loss at the same time, then the stages become fairly distinct because of the social context of it all. It's not just people losing their jobs, but the impact of the changes imposed on those left behind, and the impact of losing people they have close working relationships with.

I think more personal tragedies such as losing someone close to us have a different dynamic, and the model feels too formulaic and dogmatic to me.

I think that the model could choreograph someone's experience of loss and grief rather than just explaining it. That's inevitable, because it gives the experience a professionally-sourced, structured vocabulary and an expectation of a pattern. It's inevitable that people will fit their experiences of loss onto it rather than it simply describing what they are experiencing. That seems to be true of all psychological models that are readily accessible by non-professionals though - MBTI is a bit like this for example.

 

[aeon]

In other words, it's like saying the average height of men is such and such - but we know that very few people will actually be that height as a percentage of the whole.

A very large percentage will be that height, because when it comes to human male height, the average tends to be the same as the median.

But I get your point!

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Matty]

The way I've experienced them wasn't on the conscious thought processing level, but on a more unconscious or implicit level.

Denial for me manifests when I'm out and see something a person I've lost might like. I'll start thinking about buying it, before I'll realise there's no point, as the person is deceased. Denial for me is thinking or acting as though the person were still alive.

Anger manifests for me as an annoyance at things that remind me of the person I've lost. It comes and goes.

Bargaining for me, is thinking about how my friend passed away, and running "what if" scenarios in my head: what if I'd encouraged them to go to the doctor more? Would they still be alive?

Depression is a kind of despair I've felt, that life will never be as good as it was when my friend was alive. This is probably what I've felt least, but it's still been a thing.

Acceptance is noticing that my life is complete and doesn't feel as though there's a big hole in it, from loss.


Onto whether the kubler ross schema is valid, meh, I just like that the stages are things to observe in oneself. I noticed myself cycling through the stages of grief periodically, but each time they were less perceptible. I see them as descriptive, not prescriptive, and are helpful to self observation.

My emotions aren't something I easily notice. Unless adrenaline is going, I won't notice that I'm angry, etc, unless I'm paying attention to myself. I like the kubler ross schema because it helped me track that I was grieving, and that I've moved on.

 

[John K]

A very large percentage will be that height, because when it comes to human male height, the average tends to be the same as the median.

But I get your point!

Cheers,
Ian

It’s actually only one in twenty men who are of average height - by which I mean within +/- 0.25 inches of it, because we usually quote our height to a half inch, or to a centimetre. This is the modal height so it will be the largest group, but it’s still only a fairly small fraction of the total.

 

[AureaMediocritas]

After losing my spouse young, I don't think the stages matter so much as the assumptions others make about your situation that even you cannot comprehend. Grief is a strange creature, and it is bound to no definitive timeline or law. It simply is. Someone, well-meaning, wrote this in a book on grief that they recently gave to me.
"Grief is love that no longer has any place to go." It is fitting because the stages matter very little until you can make sense of the fact that there is this huge reservoir of love that has no vessel to pour into. Part of the healing is recognizing that, and endeavoring to direct that love in ways which honor the person (thing, animal, place, etc.) that is now lost to you.

 

[dZpADTLrPmX4c]

After losing my spouse young, I don't think the stages matter so much as the assumptions others make about your situation that even you cannot comprehend. Grief is a strange creature, and it is bound to no definitive timeline or law. It simply is. Someone, well-meaning, wrote this in a book on grief that they recently gave to me.
"Grief is love that no longer has any place to go." It is fitting because the stages matter very little until you can make sense of the fact that there is this huge reservoir of love that has no vessel to pour into. Part of the healing is recognizing that, and endeavoring to direct that love in ways which honor the person (thing, animal, place, etc.) that is now lost to you.

I'm sorry for this. There's always a place somewhere in us where everybody we've loved still lives. It's more than a memory. Their fingerprints in us, perhaps.
I like that quote as well.

 

[AureaMediocritas]

I'm sorry for this. There's always a place somewhere in us where everybody we've loved still lives. It's more than a memory. Their fingerprints in us, perhaps.
I like that quote as well.

Thank you. I think I believe something similar. I can't remember the exact phrase, but I recall something like, "You can never step in the same water twice." I'd add that while the water has shifted and changed, the affects of those shifts will be consistent ripples of lasting change even to the depths. All that to say, I agree that we leave an enduring influence on everyone we meet, no matter how brief. I try to be cognizant of that, so hopefully whatever memories that I leave behind as impressions on others, the change felt is the least bit beneficial to them. I'm truthfully grateful for those memories, even if there is a circumstantial latent bitterness adhered to each one for an indeterminate time.

 

[uuu]

Thank you. I think I believe something similar. I can't remember the exact phrase, but I recall something like, "You can never step in the same water twice." I'd add that while the water has shifted and changed, the affects of those shifts will be consistent ripples of lasting change even to the depths. All that to say, I agree that we leave an enduring influence on everyone we meet, no matter how brief. I try to be cognizant of that, so hopefully whatever memories that I leave behind as impressions on others, the change felt is the least bit beneficial to them. I'm truthfully grateful for those memories, even if there is a circumstantial latent bitterness adhered to each one for an indeterminate time.

Thank you for sharing your story, and for that lovely phrase.

 

[AureaMediocritas]

Thank you for sharing your story, and for that lovely phrase.

You are most welcome. Thank you for receiving it.