Fe and Mirroring | INFJ Forum

Fe and Mirroring

J

justeccentricnotinsane

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Oct 7, 2008
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MBTI
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Sorry, can't seem to stop coming up with conclusions this weekend.

Fe is empathy, feeling the feelings of others, merging with others.

I mirror to an extent that is so obvious it is pointed out by other people.

Mirroring is where you literally take on the same body position, expressions, hand gesticulations as others. You also begin to speak like them - everybody has a pace and unique rhythm to their language. Often they also use formulas within the way they structure their sentences (particularly when telling jokes, they may use the same formula again and again) and memes.

The mirrorer, depending on the extent to which they mirror (everybody does it to a certain extent unless they have a personality disorder, though it is usually very subtle) will copy all or some of these.

Mirroring is entirely unconscious, the person who does it does it without knowing. However, some people teach themselves to do it deliberately as a manipulation technique - because it tends to make others feel comfortable and accepted.

One type of mirroring that nearly everybody does is smiling when others smile and yawning when others yawn. The reason for mirroring is that it encourages socialisation - it is a way of bonding intuitively that keeps human beings together and able to defend themselves in groups.

When I mirror, like I say, it is exact. When someone crosses their legs I will do it at around the same time. When somebody puts their hand behind their head, so do I. I may also finish their sentences or speak to them in their language unconsciously. It stands to reason that they would also feel the way someone else does through this total mirroring. It also makes sense why I (and I assume most people) will literally feel a tingle shoot up the nerves of my toe through my leg if I see someone stub their toe. There are neurons on our brain, discovered through research with primates (who also mirror) which light up when people see others take a certain action. They cause the brain to take the same processes it would if you were literally taking the action yourself. In some, this characteristic is stronger than others and can lead to actual movements of the body rather than the brain kind of semi-copying without making the movements itself. Like I say, totally evolutionary, necessary for tribalism and rearing young. I'll see if I can find a link to that study if people are interested.

So, this is Fe right? I wondered whether it could be Fe plus Ni? Whether Ni has an influence? The only reason I ask is because Si+Fe does seem to behave differently - it is almost more selective and more about close bonds within a particular group rather than a less selective and more aimless empathy.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: Also - is this were the "mind-reading" phenomena of INFJs comes in? If you are literally mirroring another, you are able to experience their experiences to a certain extent - so could this lead to knowing intent and motivation? And then being able to make a moral judgement.

Here are some links for those interested in the phenomenon
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110728103139.htm - as you can see from this article, my mirroring often reflects badly on me. I am generally seen as the lowest in the hierarchy, and I believe this may be part of the cause. I do not actually do or say differently from nice people, but people may think I'm odd, contradictory etc. I unconsciously mimic EVERYBODY (as far as I know - people I don't like have pointed it out, you see) although this does not stop me from making immediate good or bad judgements of them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology)
And this is that study http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=mirroring-behavior

AHA! - http://web.media.mit.edu/~anmol/TR-584.pdf - Ni+Fe :)
 
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I do the same thing as you said.But a little differently. If i talk a lot with a person i will assume his same verbal or facial expressions ( even while talking to another person) . And it is unconcious (and when i notice it , that make me laugh a lot ! :D). I don't know if i do the same even while talking to a person , i think that it could be even if i could be totally unaware of it.

I was wondering the same thing some days ago , if it could be related to Fe as well (even if it is a bit different from what you said, i don't know if it is could be considered the same ). I don't know , i think that it could be.
 
Carola said:
I do the same thing as you said.But a little differently. If i talk a lot with a person i will assume his same verbal or facial expressions ( even while talking to another person) . And it is unconcious (and when i notice it , that make me laugh a lot ! :D). I don't know if i do the same even while talking to a person , i think that it could be even if i could be totally unaware of it.

I was wondering the same thing some days ago , if it could be related to Fe as well (even if it is a bit different from what you said, i don't know if it is could be considered the same ). I don't know , i think that it could be.
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Cool! Definitely the same thing. Mirroring is literally taking on anything of another person through contact with them.

Just reading a study now about it which is a really cool piece of proof! (Last link of the page). The scientists found that the unconscious empathic judgements made on first meeting were very accurate predictors of future behaviour, even if the future behaviour is months of years off (e.g. - "those people will divorce")

Enter Ni+Fe!

We don't tend to be aware at all of our behaviour and most people we talk to also don't notice it unless it is extreme. So it is very rarely brought up in conversation and you could go your whole life as a mirrored and be totally unaware you do it at all! It is a predictive method of deciding whether a person is good news or bad news. You tend to be aware of whether you think they are good and bad but cannot explain why.
 
We all share every neurological process , i guess that cognitive differences and preferences could be related to the development or greater usage of the processes involved .
 
I use mirroring quite a bit but it's tricky. It helps people feel more comfortable but if done too often, people realize it isn't authentic or if you overdo it, they believe it's a reflection of who you are. They then expect you to be this way all the time or every situation where they see you. I find that our culture depends too much on mirroring for social interaction. People can't really be themselves or give their authentic responses. It's overused. Whatever the situation, you're expected to mirror to get along even when it's unnecessary or counterproductive. On the other hand, although we criticize people for seeming or being too fake, if they don't mirror, they're seen as difficult or not personable. You're expected to mirror to make them feel more comfortable and relaxed around you. Not that this is a bad thing, but it's sometimes overdone. I overuse it and overdo it but it's difficult not to. It's expected.
 
Rite said:
I use mirroring quite a bit but it's tricky. It helps people feel more comfortable but if done too often, people realize it isn't authentic or if you overdo it, they believe it's a reflection of who you are. They then expect you to be this way all the time or every situation where they see you. I find that our culture depends too much on mirroring for social interaction. People can't really be themselves or give their authentic responses. It's overused. Whatever the situation, you're expected to mirror to get along even when it's unnecessary or counterproductive. On the other hand, although we criticize people for seeming or being too fake, if they don't mirror, they're seen as difficult or not personable. You're expected to mirror to make them feel more comfortable and relaxed around you. Not that this is a bad thing, but it's sometimes overdone. I overuse it and overdo it but it's difficult not to. It's expected.
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Do you mean you do it deliberately?

And I agree with @carole on this one. The theory doesn't work if we don't all always use every neurological process (unless we're sociopaths of course). The point of MBTI is that we have a preference for four and do not like using the others. Fe is, essentially, empathy with those around you. It isn't just a desire to do good, Fi can have a desire to do good and Fe doesn't need to. It's not just a group function. Fi can want people to stay together in a group if that is what they value. The difference is in how they get to that point. Empathy is the feeling of being merged with another - it is basic socialisation, it keeps us together. Everybody uses empathy to a certain extent (except for people with some types of personality disorder). But people who have a preference for Fe more empathic.

In MBTI empathy - the mirroring of others, the social interaction designed to keep us together rather than stating individualism - is Fe. It's just how that particular process is described. So mirror neurones are kind of Fe in the physical realm, maybe, which would be exciting. It depends whether mirror neurons are different between people of course. But basically it really is important that everybody uses everything - You do need to be able to use a bit of Si and a bit of Te - you might find it hard and you might find it boring or stressful or uncomfortable, because it's not your preference, but without it, we would be totally different to each other (and that is not true).
 
[MENTION=287]justeccentricnotinsane[/MENTION] - mirroring is used as a technique especially in sales, so yes, it is used deliberately. It's not simply an unconscious process. And the real issue is the motives behind it's use, not the deliberate use of it.
 
Rite said:
@justeccentricnotinsane - mirroring is used as a technique especially in sales, so yes, it is used deliberately. It's not simply an unconscious process. And the real issue is the motives behind it's use, not the deliberate use of it.
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Mirroring is an unconscious process among the vast majority of people (there are different subtleties but some people will literally take on the position and demeanour of the person they are speaking to unconsciously - much like Fe users take on the language of the person they're talking to unconsciously) but some sales people do use it deliberately (and you get people who are into NLP and all that stuff). I imagine it doesn't work as well, although perhaps if you get it right it works.

The most subtle version of mirroring that probably like 99 per cent of people do is yawning when others yawn. It's believed to be a socialisation process but for the vast majority of people, you just don't notice yourself doing it. The people you're talking to generally don't either (unless they're looking for it) because it is designed as a more intuitive process of bonding that slips by you consciously - it's an evolutionary thing.

The coolest type of mirroring is that if you are very close to someone your hearts beat at the same time :) Same with women and menstruation etc. Mirroring is the syncing of bodies, essentially, social cues are sort of part of it, but I'd say it would be 99 per cent of the population that mirror people they are comfortable with. Lack of mirroring is seen as a symptoms of sociopathy (though I doubt it's a particularly reliable one!).
 
The INTJ did this to me, once, at a bar, (he definitely uses Fi), and I thought he was making fun of me. (I DO NOT mirror, but my Fe and Fi are almost even percentages.) I read him the riot act, and he laughed and said he read it was supposed to bring people closer, and deepen their connection. I said, "I think we're close enough, as it is, thank you!" *took a huge sip of my drink.*
 
purplecrayons said:
The INTJ did this to me, once, at a bar, (he definitely uses Fi), and I thought he was making fun of me. (I DO NOT mirror, but my Fe and Fi are almost even percentages.) I read him the riot act, and he laughed and said he read it was supposed to bring people closer, and deepen their connection. I said, "I think we're close enough, as it is, thank you!" *took a huge sip of my drink.*
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Hehe. I don't really think it can work that well if people put it on. You'll notice it. The reason you and everybody says they don't mirror is because it is unconscious. Not just for us, but for the people we are around. They don't notice it either. Here:

http://westsidetoastmasters.com/resources/book_of_body_language/chap12.html

People who don't mirror are people anybody at all are probably people who don't have empathy. That's not a personality type thing, that's a personality disorder thing. I have never mirrored intentionally. I don't really understand why people try to re-enact natural behaviour, it always looks out of place (though I guess some people could be really good at it like....actors...probably :p). Think of mirroring as just being "body language" - the way we sit with another person tells us a lot about how we feel about them yes? Generally, if we like them, we do what they do.

Another form of mirroring is when both parties in a conversation know the conversation is over without any obvious cues. Usually, we do actually know this. Most people understand when it is time to say goodbye, it feels natural. I'm talking about just hanging out with a friend here when neither you have any place to be, not like a business meeting. It's the basis of socialisation and it's really terribly interesting :)
 
Hmmm... thank you. That is interesting. I usually lean forward, or touch them in empathy, tilt my head to the side like a dog when quizzical, tug my earlobe when nervous, cross my arms when closed, etc. I get made fun of for such idiosyncrasies, so perhaps that is why I don't notice the mirroring in myself.
 
purplecrayons said:
Hmmm... thank you. That is interesting. I usually lean forward, or touch them in empathy, tilt my head to the side like a dog when quizzical, tug my earlobe when nervous, cross my arms when closed, etc. I get made fun of for such idiosyncrasies, so perhaps that is why I don't notice the mirroring in myself.
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Probably, although its only mirroring if you're doing it because someone else is (and you are completely unaware) :) Some people do do it a lot more than others, but it will very rarely if ever come up because basically no one notices.
I went off looking for a video example of this but I can't find it now :( Maybe later!
 
That is what I meant. I do different things, so I don't think I mirror, but I could be subconsciously at times without noticing it. It is interesting what you said about the empathy factor. I'm a 4, and we'd rather die than be less than unique, so don't let me ruin your theory. ;)
 
purplecrayons said:
That is what I meant. I do different things, so I don't think I mirror, but I could be subconsciously at times without noticing it. It is interesting what you said about the empathy factor. I'm a 4, and we'd rather die than be less than unique, so don't let me ruin your theory. ;)
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Hehe. Don't worry, I was just concerned I'd given the wrong impression. You will do it but this is a phenomenon that is known about but no one knows they do it or sees other people do it (but if you watched two people speaking you'd probably notice it). It doesn't take away your originality :) Just means you're not a sociopath!
 
Good to KNOW! ;D
 
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