Fascism

[Apone]

What does fascism mean to you?

I just watched the movie 'Die Welle' (The Wave) in which a teacher decides to do a 'social experiment' and turns his class into a fascist regime. It's a crap film, but the real-life study it's based on is fascinating. Here's a link to the 'Third Wave' experiment:

http://libcom.org/history/the-third-wave-1967-account-ron-jones

It seems like some of his students got a lot of positive things out of the experience… and the way he describes his own anxiety in the face of these suddenly disciplined and committed students is what hits me the hardest (I guess because I know what it's like to be in front of people every day). Also, the students who thrived in a more individualistic setting suddenly become like 'special students', while the formerly unexceptional students suddenly find a purpose and a meaning and become more committed. In a lot of ways their individuality is eroded and they develop a sort of militaristic pride and strong sense of communal identity, which in some ways makes them better as students but also threatens to make them worse as people… well, except for the fact that former bullies now see their classmates as fellow 'members' and decide to stop bullying them, because they now belong together.

Do you ever wonder if the Western emphasis on individuality and 'free speech' is actually making people weaker? I know that this probably isn't a popular opinion, but it seems to me that a society where everything is subjective and there are no standards whatsoever empowers stupidity just as often or perhaps even more than it empowers excellence.

 

[the]

I think there is something that goes beyond individuality and community, it's something that allows people to be an individual while still being part of the group. I thin kthat is what is missing and that is what is making people weaker. It's probably something along the lines of having direction of having a community goal.

 

[Apone]

I think there is something that goes beyond individuality and community, it's something that allows people to be an individual while still being part of the group. I thin kthat is what is missing and that is what is making people weaker. It's probably something along the lines of having direction of having a community goal.

The thing is-- I don't think that most people actively want to belong to groups.
They want groups to belong to them.

 

[the]

The thing is-- I don't think that most people actively want to belong to groups.
They want groups to belong to them.

Yes most people want to be in charge.

 

[muir]

Fascism to me is when corporate power and government power blur together

Here is what the fascist leader Mussolini had to say about fascism:

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”


Fascism can occur anywhere. People of any religion can be fascists

Those who believe that corporations should govern the public are fascists

The banks are corporations so to provide a real world example of what i am talking about to illustrate what i'm saying here i will talk about the influence of the banks on the governments:

The banks are the biggest financial contributors of the ruling politicians in the US and UK. One bank that is prominant in that process is Goldman Sachs. The people behind Goldman Sachs are also the people behind the federal reserve bank and the central banks of Europe. These people are able to centrally control the economy by controlling the money supply

here is a venn diagram that shows their influence in the US government:

Here is a chart showing how ex-goldman sachs people have been put in charge of governments and central banks in Europe in the wake of the 2008 'credit crunch':

Guess who is the main financial contributor of President Obama? Here is a CNN article with the answer: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/20/obama.goldman.donations/index.html

But goldman sachs is merely a corporation and corporations are merely legal screens behind which are individuals, groups and families.

So if the corporations are runnign our governments and economies (through the central banks) is it fair to say we are witnessing a fascist takeover?

I would argue YES!

And it might help lend even more credibility to this claim to take a glance back into history to see how the very same banking families actually attempted a fascist takeover of the US government by asking a marine officer by the name of Major General Smedley Butler to orchestrate a fascist coup; fortunately for the US public Butler went public and told the world what the bankers had asked him to do. J.P.Morgan was central to the plot, but of course he did not go to prison!

J.P.Morgan is an agent of the Rothschild banking dynasty

Here is a youtube clip about the attempted coup:

[video=youtube;TFCGOCalqkE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCGOCalqkE[/video]

Fascism did not start and end with the nazis, it has a long history and it is not dead and is in fact alive and well and flourishing!

In fact the nazis were assisted by the central bankers for example the US banker Prescott Bush who was the father and grandfather of two US presidents. Not only do the Bush clan have their roots in banking and have established links with fascism but they are also planning to put forward a third member of their family for the post of president: Jeb Bush who was implicated in the voter fraud surrounding his brother George Bush's electoral defeat of Al Gore

The Bush's have close business ties with the Rockefeller banking/oil family who own a large share of the federal reserve bank

To tie all this in to the OP

I think there are forces at work that push people in certain directions at certain times. The film obviously draws parallels with the nazis but the nazis had a lot of support from the middle class and from the corporations. They got this because people were very angry and felt like they were being disspossessed

We can see the same process at work now in Europe as the economic situation worsens with more right wing political parties gaining traction

I don't think it is about people thinking 'will we be better working together under one dicatatorial government or will we be better as individuals' it is more a reaction to certain stimulus

When there is a rising surge of anger in the public and one group can harness that anger and focus it in a certain direction then it is fertile grounds for fascism

Corporations like fascism because they are protected under it...they are protected from the people

http://www.amazon.com/dp/3925725199/?tag=infjs-20

 

[gd65h8as7]

Corporate control of the state
State control of corporations

Either of the two is fascism.

 

[Lerxst]

I would have failed his class magnificently. I had a teacher that tried this, only she didn't start it off as a game/experiment - she was a former Army Drill Sargent. Everything had a set order it was to be placed, everyone had a set of rules to follow, etc. etc.

I would much rather be a lone outsider living happily, than lose my identity with the masses just to be accepted. Fascism may allow some people to shine, but it also stifles creativity and without creativity, there's no progress.

 

[Apone]

I would much rather be a lone outsider living happily, than lose my identity with the masses just to be accepted. Fascism may allow some people to shine, but it also stifles creativity and without creativity, there's no progress.

Fascist societies made plenty of progress-- rocket science was basically invented in Nazi Germany... and the US granted amnesty to one of the worst war criminals Japan has ever seen because of the enormous amount of medical and biological warfare information that they were given in exchange. I really don't think that 'creativity' is ever a problem-- if someone is genuinely inspired, then they won't be able to help themselves. The only difference is whether or not your contributions are considered valuable... and not just in a monetary sense.

The only real difference is how the value of someone's personal expression is measured... if all expression is given the same value, then things will definitely stagnate. If the majority determines what has value, then it's simply a matter of manipulating the masses... which is actually extremely easy if they don't have any criteria by which to gauge the value of art/expression (which is what happens now). If the minority determines what has value, then it's simply a matter of them imposing their will and forcing conformity.

 

[Tin Man]

I value my individuality far too much to consider fascism as an alternate ruling system. I've been in situations where one person had near complete domination over a group and that environment was poisonous to me. There are certain benefits of a fascist regime but I can't see a society based on repression and obliterating the self lasting very long.

 

[Cornerstone]

Yeah, a lot of people want to be led and feel important doing it. It works for a reason...at first.
If it could get real and just be an option then it would be fine for those people but *sigh* it's always about the killing with those guys.
Also, if people knew there were better options (even the fascists?) would they take them?

 

[Lerxst]

Fascist societies made plenty of progress-- rocket science was basically invented in Nazi Germany... and the US granted amnesty to one of the worst war criminals Japan has ever seen because of the enormous amount of medical and biological warfare information that they were given in exchange. I really don't think that 'creativity' is ever a problem-- if someone is genuinely inspired, then they won't be able to help themselves. The only difference is whether or not your contributions are considered valuable... and not just in a monetary sense.

The only real difference is how the value of someone's personal expression is measured... if all expression is given the same value, then things will definitely stagnate. If the majority determines what has value, then it's simply a matter of manipulating the masses... which is actually extremely easy if they don't have any criteria by which to gauge the value of art/expression (which is what happens now). If the minority determines what has value, then it's simply a matter of them imposing their will and forcing conformity.

But most of the Nazi's scientists were born, educated and raised in a non-fascist state. You would need to look at a society that has had a fascist regime in place for multiple generations to see what effects it would have on their progress.

Actually... thinking about this, I might suggest looking at China, but then, it's hard to tell what effects were from Communism and what came form Fascism... although I label the two the same since Communism is a small group forcing the majority to do their will. For hundreds of years, they were the leaders in anything cultural and scientific, since falling under Communism though, they've fallen decades behind the rest of the world in those same areas.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

All things in moderation.

Some regimentation and group over individual preference seems beneficial if it causes individuals to grow outside their native preferences (without being so regimented as to stifle initiative).

I think our Western society could benefit from a little fascist-type discipline; while many Eastern cultures seem to be bereft of certain liberties, which could promote excellence.

ie. The old moral about a bow that cannot shoot if it isn't stretched, but breaks if streched too far.

 

[this is only temporary]

Fascism to me means complete control by a state or group; lack of individuality or individual power. Too much group control.

I just got through reading a book called "Outliers" and it is about extremely successful people and how they got that way. The main premise of the book is that we are all products of our cultures and circumstances; complete individualism is a myth. It discusses individuality vs. compliance with leadership/a group, and it contains several case studies. One of the case studies looks at Korean Air -- it seems at one point Korean Air had a frightening rate of plane crashes. Like, really, really bad rates of crashing planes. Long story short, people tried to figure out what was causing it, and it turned out to be a culture of basically not enough individuality. The pilots and co-pilots tended to follow orders too much, pay too much attention to leaders, and be part of a less individualistic culture. (Says the book. I've never met a Korean pilot myself so I would have no idea personally.) So from that point of view, anyway, I would say that lack of individualism most definitely weakened Korean Air.

On the other hand, anyone who's ever tried to work with a group of defiant people who refuse to cooperate knows that you can't get anything done at all without some group mentality. Nothing. Even a trip to the aquarium can be ruined by people who are ignoring then needs of the group and only focusin on being individuals. Also, you need cooperation and group support because no individual can do everything themselves, even though people think they can sometimes.

 

[muir]

Fascism to me means complete control by a state or group; lack of individuality or individual power. Too much group control.

I just got through reading a book called "Outliers" and it is about extremely successful people and how they got that way. The main premise of the book is that we are all products of our cultures and circumstances; complete individualism is a myth. It discusses individuality vs. compliance with leadership/a group, and it contains several case studies. One of the case studies looks at Korean Air -- it seems at one point Korean Air had a frightening rate of plane crashes. Like, really, really bad rates of crashing planes. Long story short, people tried to figure out what was causing it, and it turned out to be a culture of basically not enough individuality. The pilots and co-pilots tended to follow orders too much, pay too much attention to leaders, and be part of a less individualistic culture. (Says the book. I've never met a Korean pilot myself so I would have no idea personally.) So from that point of view, anyway, I would say that lack of individualism most definitely weakened Korean Air.

On the other hand, anyone who's ever tried to work with a group of defiant people who refuse to cooperate knows that you can't get anything done at all without some group mentality. Nothing. Even a trip to the aquarium can be ruined by people who are ignoring then needs of the group and only focusin on being individuals. Also, you need cooperation and group support because no individual can do everything themselves, even though people think they can sometimes.

I think when looking at figures relating to the safety of certain aircraft companies you have to take into account that some of them are actually sabotaged for example N.Korean flight 007 was shot down which would of course skew the safety figures for N.Korean airlines

here's an article about it: http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news...orean-Air-Lines-007-Shot-Down-by-Soviets.html

Whats really strange about that flight is that it had a US congressman on board!

His name was congressman Larry McDonald

There were supposed to be two other politicians on board the flight who were political opponents of McDonald but they were diverted at the last minute.

What distinguishes McDonald was that he had made some pretty interesting claims in public that there was a faction within the US government who were plotting to overthrow the US government. he names the Rockefellers as being central to that plot

Here he is talking about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BPhYEFGaGM

What is this fascist takeover he is talking about? Is he a lone nutjob?

Well when you look into this stuff it seems all sorts of famous people are talking about this plot

In fact here is the most famous journalist in the US who exposed Nixon in the watergate scandal, Carl Bernstein, saying on mainstream news (and taking the hosts of the show by suprise with his candour) that 'jewish neocons' were responsible for the Iraq war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[video=youtube;BbyBL3-ZOsM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyBL3-ZOsM[/video]

But isn't Bernstein jewish? yes he is....maybe he's one of those 'self hating jews'

Or

.....and here's a wild suggestion.....now just bare with me here a moment..........i know this is really far out there but lets just open our minds here for a minute.........maybe............he's telling the truth

Of course the presenter says to him that he is not allowed to say that and then accuses him of being crazy!

Of course he's not allowed to say that because the people he's talking about own large parts of the mainstream media and he just said on their media that they are responsible for the Iraq war!

Maybe for a moment he forgot the following truth:

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise."

Or maybe he just wants to speak the truth and had the courage to do so

Now N.Korea is a country that has refused to join the new world order run by bankers such as the rockefellers so i wonder if there are any people out there in the world who would like to sabotage N.Korean airlines....hmmm let me think.....

 

[muir]

I didn't mention another aspect of fascism in my post before.....i think fascism is a very masculine current

I think it is paternalistic....it often has a strong male figurehead

It is strict

It punishes harshly

It is very controlling and domineering

It is not generally known for compassion or for empathy

It is in my eyes an imbalance of male energies

Even the architecture of fascism tends to be very squat, very muscular and very masculine....no gentle feminine curves

If you trace it back to its roman roots and look at the romans they were a very masculine culture....very domineering, very controlling, very patriarchal and stern, strict and frequently cruel

A male current

Male currents often like their architecture to be phallic as well. The sky scraper is a very phallic symbol. Different corporations like to try and build bigger sky scrapers then their competitors in a sort of bricks and mortar pissing contest

Many romans worshipped the sun which is generally held to be a symbol of active male energies whilst the moon is seen as reflecting passive female energies

A male, solar, phallic current, that's what fascism is, imo

The nazi swastika is a sun symbol

NATO has a star as its symbol; if you look at the black part of the star it is a swastika and nazis did play a part in creating it. It is a fascist body that exists to protect the interests of western corporations

 

[this is only temporary]

Now N.Korea is a country that has refused to join the new world order run by bankers such as the rockefellers so i wonder if there are any people out there in the world who would like to sabotage N.Korean airlines....hmmm let me think.....

Muir. Korean Air is an airline from SOUTH Korea. OMFG.

 

[Apone]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]-- You know what's really messed up?
DOG is actually GOD spelled backwards.

 

[the]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]-- You know what's really messed up?
DOG is actually GOD spelled backwards.

I remember that you said you missed muir a week or so ago. Was that because you couldnt get your kicks from bullying him?

 

[acd]

I remember that you said you missed muir a week or so ago. Was that because you couldnt get your kicks from bullying him?

BAM!

/thread

 

[Apone]

I remember that you said you missed muir a week or so ago. Was that because you couldnt get your kicks from bullying him?

Says the forum's number one bully and initiator of drama (and the number two as well).

It's only bullying if the person is weaker than you-- which is why you target new users and make sure they leave the forum quickly... muir is established and we have a rapport.

There's a difference.

Oh wait, here's a perfect example:

http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25375