You Said Patterns? Let's Play a Game!

meowzician said:
For example, one of my favorite metaphors for the way I study all the different religions is that it's like holding an apple--I turn the apple all around and look at it from all different directions, because only then do I have a full understanding of what an apple looks like. I can't tell you how many times I've used that metaphor over the decades. So then, this morning when I came to that verse in the Pirkei Avot, I was like, "Whoop. There it is!"
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Lao Tzunami said:
For example, I grew up next to a mountain. I always saw it from one angle. Then when I was older, I remember driving up in the mountains with my family and seeing it from the side and the back for the first time. It was unnerving, like your dad coming home with a shaved beard when you are a kid. I do dataviz for a living, and I can tell you, people get attached to certain map projections and do not like when they are changed. Most people like the US Albers projection with a curved top, not the projections with a flat top, and don't even think about turning the map so east is up, like we did when orienting East by where the sun rose above the horizon each morning.
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This reminds me of the Indian parable of the blind men and the elephant:


It also reminds me of Plato's parable of the shadows flickering in a cave.

I guess one of the funniest I've come across is 'Why is an ogre like an onion?' from Shrek. It wouldn't have been anything like so funny if it wasn't sort of a valid metaphor :D
 
Lao Tzunami said:
I'm actually working on a translation of the Dao De Jing, which is exactly about this! I really want to post it now, but let me wait until it is finished, and then I'll post a thread.
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How fun! Yes! You really do have to post a link when it's done. I want chapters 1 and 25.

I was once on a team translating just #1 for one of our local temples. I don't speak a word of Chinese, but they wanted a poet fluent in English on the team in order to get ideas that no one else might suggest. It was an incredibly rich experience. And that's just one poem! You are doing the whole thing!
 
meowzician said:
I illustrate my religion posts with this story so frequently that I sometimes worry that I'm boring my friends with the repetition. LOL
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Never give up on it because it bears a lot of repetition, quite honestly - we all act as one of the blind men in so many situations. It's easy to see the elephant when we have eyes, but there's lots of situations, aren't there, where 'eyes' is just a metaphor for insight that sees beyond our own four walls, our blind spots, our assumptions and prejudices?
 
meowzician said:
How fun! Yes! You really do have to post a link when it's done. I want chapters 1 and 25.
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@meowzician I just finished and posted a thread:
https://infjs.com/threads/interactive-daodejing-audiobook-with-seal-script-translation.40167/

Also to get back to the pattern game,
meowzician said:
And that is what is so amazing about experiencing life through patterns rather than linear thinking. ...
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a pattern I notice is sequential vs parallel. For example, algebra is sequential and linear, but geometry is everything at once. That's why I love mandalas so much. If you can become aware of multiple things at a time, you can see what is at their center.
 
I used to work in the information systems department of an international pharmaceutical company. I remember seeing that the people designing the information systems infrastructure for the whole business were like the people who build national railway systems. Metaphorically, the trains all ran on set tracks between fixed stations.

But I was supporting research scientists. Conceptually, at the meta-system level, these guys needed the computer system equivalent of off-road vehicles and boats. A railway network approach was never going to work for them and didn’t. In more specific terms, they needed a generalised computer strategy equivalent to a set of machine shops with tools and pathways that could be adapted to many different purposes, seen and unforeseen.

But folks who form such strategies are taught such things within a world view that, by analogy, is like their native language. It’s not just their chosen view but the very vocabulary with which they relate the world to themselves. It’s implicit rather than articulated so it’s hard to break free because it’s hard-wired into their way of perception.

I only got funny looks trying to use such analogies. I don’t think many people appreciate figurative analogies, particularly those that shake the foundations of their paradigms.
 
Lao Tzunami said:
a pattern I notice is sequential vs parallel. For example, algebra is sequential and linear, but geometry is everything at once. That's why I love mandalas so much. If you can become aware of multiple things at a time, you can see what is at their center.
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Yes. :)

So give us a scenario, and let's see what other things the rest of us can come up with that fit the same pattern. It's fun to guess. I think it would be cool if a scenario generated quite a few very different things that all fit the same pattern.
 
John K said:
I only got funny looks trying to use such analogies. I don’t think many people appreciate figurative analogies,
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No they don't. They don't get it. They process the world differently and they don't underrstand.
John K said:
particularly those that shake the foundations of their paradigms.
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When I was young, I always worked within the system. In addition to my job, I did what I could to create harmony so that the system could work as well as possible.

But as I grew older, I found that some systems are just FUBAR and need to be brought down. Try telling THAT to a group.
 
I have seen patterns in long-lasting relationships that I can mention. One person will want to interact with others and the other in the relationship starts holding it against them. People develop differently, especially in their brains. This shouldn't be a warning sign to your other half. Yet, the pattern repeats itself. I think it is more of a relationship where the two people are not "equally yoked", as they call it.
 
Pattern: a person’s neurobiology can affect their perception.

Example: falling in love. The euphoria of falling in love, among other things, makes it likely that partners underestimate or overlook the shadow of the other.
 
Have you all heard of Tibetan deity yoga? The practice is meditating while visualizing a god or goddess' field of consciousness, while allowing the deity to inhabit your body: so you feel as they feel, and you see the world through their eyes. My teacher explained it like you are a dirty sponge, and you filling yourself with water and then ringing yourself out, again and again, until you are clean and the water runs clear. Then after the meditation, you arise as that deity. For example, Green Tara.

I'm not comfortable with it, but the truth I see in it is your pattern @Erik Alberto where neurobiology effect your perception. I think it is just so cool that there are monastic communities of Buddhist monks that are elevating their consciousness and exploring their neurobiology, and then they can crystalize it into a more specific form that can then be transmitted through art.

The part I am totally behind is how our mental state effects each other. If you have a joyful, cheerful attitude, that rubs off on people. If you achieve competence, nobility, and compassion, that can inspire other people through your example. Conversely, if you abuse people, and they internalize it as anger and resentment, they are likely to go on to hurt other people. The karmic cycle continues in both good and bad directions. You can't control people, but you can control your perception of the world and your response to other people and situations.

Tantric practice is fascinating because I see the potential in shifting your neurobiology, waking up latent aspects of yourself and inhabiting that space in order to accelerate your personal growth. But the deities make me uncomfortable because without first evoking the universal field of consciousness they arise within, I feel like there is a risk of dissociation. This is probably why tantric practice is the fastest (the lightning vehicle) but also dangerous.

I've been very careful to align my intuition and emotion with reality, so when I see a pattern or feel a certain way, I can trust it. I don't know how to categorize my spirituality, but I would say two of my highest values is the feedback with reality, and affirming the goodness of life.

I do not get along with the bliss ninnies who have tuned their consciousness to maximum momentary pleasure at the expense of responsibility. I don't want to be a buzz kill, so if you're buzzed, I'll give you space and help you enjoy it. But when someone is trying to be buzzed all the time in order to avoid reality, you are making your problem my problem, and that's when I leave because I will not abide in the land of the lotus eaters!

However, if you read and listen to tantric masters, they emphasize it is not for your pleasure, it is so your can benefit other people and conscious being. The only reason I am interested in tantra is so I can cultivate good energy, and induce positive neurobiological shifts in the people around me.
 
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re special kids , ive had direct experience ,the most recent one ,a very young lad was wearingg his nans ability to think ,i arrived at the end of day and was imediately distracted from my hey how you good to see you etc yes a goood drive over etc bla bla by what sounded like veloso rapter screatches coming from the little guy ,of course apologies and explanations re boys autmism were coming at me but i could tell my dinosaur noises were recieved and ...different dialect....we had a little screach n sqawk about the tv if i understood correctly ,i was getting inerupted though ,unfortunately the car was getting loaded and nan was hearding the tin lids out the door ,the young bloke made his way over to me as i was doing lip vibrations and trills (getting in a few words akin to nice meeting you ,great chat bummer it was so short ,anyway he showed me some in his hand he had been holding onto like it was his protection amulate and nan and mum stopped in there tracks and said wow he must like you that doesnt happen often especially with someone he only just met ,i felt good and was reminded of another time whilst talking to a client i could see her son ballancing forwards and upside down on the banister rail ,although only just four y o he was tall like a six y o ,mum explained what i could see re autism and spectrums ,then i saw it ...his upside down face positioned as though hidding under the rail showed me a peculiar grin and eye contact that he knew only i could see .... i interupted mum and said ,oh no he's fine ,no no not bothering me etc and we continued the quote and were winding up when the lad stopped swinging upside down and walked straight over to me wrapped his arms around my legs and gave me a warm hug for a good 4-5 seconds and went back to swinging upside down ,mum was gobsmacked ,she said thats never happenned before not even with peple hes met before or family etc ...i felt pretty good about that ,long story longer ,he hung out with me every day while i was doing the job quoted and he and his family and me are still freinds to this day
the end

ok ...EEEvile ....be it the devilish pursecution of man for having something seemingly more impressive than wings ...a penis ...or just a world to attribute blame to something absurd to avoid accepting the harsh truth that humans can be real c--n-s to each other ...potato potarto potartis

a behavioural pattern ive observed is .. ever noticed how when someone has the absolute shit frightened out of em they jump up and flap their hands like they are trying to take off ,its testable but , car horn at a crossing works well and of course the one we all react to the classic BOO !!!! and if ur a reall bugger try poking the test subject in the calf and yelling SNAAAKE !!!!


thought for the day ...if sharks had wings we'd all be athletes

cheers
 
Lao Tzunami said:
Have you all heard of Tibetan deity yoga? The practice is meditating while visualizing a god or goddess' field of consciousness, while allowing the deity to inhabit your body: so you feel as they feel, and you see the world through their eyes. My teacher explained it like you are a dirty sponge, and you filling yourself with water and then ringing yourself out, again and again, until you are clean and the water runs clear. Then after the meditation, you arise as that deity. For example, Green Tara.

I'm not comfortable with it, but the truth I see in it is your pattern @Erik Alberto where neurobiology effect your perception. I think it is just so cool that there are monastic communities of Buddhist monks that are elevating their consciousness and exploring their neurobiology, and then they can crystalize it into a more specific form that can then be transmitted through art.

The part I am totally behind is how our mental state effects each other. If you have a joyful, cheerful attitude, that rubs off on people. If you achieve competence, nobility, and compassion, that can inspire other people through your example. Conversely, if you abuse people, and they internalize it as anger and resentment, they are likely to go on to hurt other people. The karmic cycle continues in both good and bad directions. You can't control people, but you can control your perception of the world and your response to other people and situations.

Tantric practice is fascinating because I see the potential in shifting your neurobiology, waking up latent aspects of yourself and inhabiting that space in order to accelerate your personal growth. But the deities make me uncomfortable because without first evoking the universal field of consciousness they arise within, I feel like there is a risk of dissociation. This is probably why tantric practice is the fastest (the lightning vehicle) but also dangerous.

I've been very careful to align my intuition and emotion with reality, so when I see a pattern or feel a certain way, I can trust it. I don't know how to categorize my spirituality, but I would say two of my highest values is the feedback with reality, and affirming the goodness of life.

I do not get along with the bliss ninnies who have tuned their consciousness to maximum momentary pleasure at the expense of responsibility. I don't want to be a buzz kill, so if you're buzzed, I'll give you space and help you enjoy it. But when someone is trying to be buzzed all the time in order to avoid reality, you are making your problem my problem, and that's when I leave because I will not abide in the land of the lotus eaters!

However, if you read and listen to tantric masters, they emphasize it is not for your pleasure, it is so your can benefit other people and conscious being. The only reason I am interested in tantra is so I can cultivate good energy, and induce positive neurobiological shifts in the people around me.
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@Lao Tzunami—

I’m glad you brought up meditation. That can indeed be a good example of the pattern that one’s neurobiology can affect perception.

Although it is not always the case, I have definitely experienced the sense of having a clearer head and a calmer nervous system after meditating.

I have heard some people describe having entered states of euphoria while meditating, but while I have meditated seriously for many years, it’s not something I have ever really experienced.

Personally, my meditation practice began in the Zen tradition where breathing is the focal point. The sensibility that I inherited through that tradition was basically to ignore anything like euphoria or altered states as a distraction and to just return to breath consciousness and somatic awareness.

I don’t see anything wrong with using meditation as a tool to assist in emotional and nervous system regulation, but I’ve come to view it more as a discipline for its own sake, ultimately geared towards fostering the ability to step outside entanglements of the psyche and gain a larger perspective over time, by simply practicing observing and letting go of the natural ebb and flow of thoughts.

In so far as managing my own hyper-vigilance, though—a symptom of my CPTSD—I have found the 4-8-7 breathing technique helpful in regulating my nervous system, among other somatic practices.

Given that “meditators” can apparently be identified objectively in f-MRI scans, it would be fair to conclude though, that meditation of various forms do indeed tend to lead to neurobiological changes—changes that likely change perspective.

You bring up interesting things, like tantric practices, in your post that I don’t really have familiarity with. No, I’ve never heard of deity yoga before. I do like the image of ringing out a dirty sponge with clean water very much in relation to meditation and perhaps integrating that as a personal metaphor or even a visualization exercise.

I’m glad you shared all of what you did—especially the personal stuff.

Warm regards.

Edit: after reflecting more, I found myself wondering about how and why I don’t seem to have the same reservation about turning to exercise with the express purpose of changing my neurobiology towards a state that feels better. Hmm. Why the seeming contradiction? [Edit: rhetorical question.]
 
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Erik Alberto said:
@Lao Tzunami—

I’m glad you brought up meditation. That can indeed be a good example of the pattern that one’s neurobiology can affect perception.

Although it is not always the case, I have definitely experienced the sense of having a clearer head and a calmer nervous system after meditating.

I have heard some people describe having entered states of euphoria while meditating, but while I have meditated seriously for many years, it’s not something I have ever really experienced.

Personally, my meditation practice began in the Zen tradition where breathing is the focal point. The sensibility that I inherited through that tradition was basically to ignore anything like euphoria or altered states as a distraction and to just return to breath consciousness and somatic awareness.

I don’t see anything wrong with using meditation as a tool to assist in emotional and nervous system regulation, but I’ve come to view it more as a discipline for its own sake, ultimately geared towards fostering the ability to step outside entanglements of the psyche and gain a larger perspective over time, by simply practicing observing and letting go of the natural ebb and flow of thoughts.

In so far as managing my own hyper-vigilance, though—a symptom of my CPTSD—I have found the 4-8-7 breathing technique helpful in regulating my nervous system, among other somatic practices.

Given that “meditators” can apparently be identified objectively in f-MRI scans, it would be fair to conclude though, that meditation of various forms do indeed tend to lead to neurobiological changes—changes that likely change perspective.

You bring up interesting things, like tantric practices, in your post that I don’t really have familiarity with. No, I’ve never heard of deity yoga before. I do like the image of ringing out a dirty sponge with clean water very much in relation to meditation and perhaps integrating that as a personal metaphor or even a visualization exercise.

I’m glad you shared all of what you did—especially the personal stuff.

Warm regards.

Edit: after reflecting more, I found myself wondering about how and why I don’t seem to have the same reservation about turning to exercise with the express purpose of changing my neurobiology towards a state that feels better.

Hmm. Why the seeming contradiction?
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if ur not striving to be happy ,....what else would ya be striving for ? i have a little saying that i often use ....every day is new and i can be too .

tilting slightly to the side ,....im reminded of times past wherein i was unhappy with me ,the world and id find myself wondering who am i ? it would be easier it seemed to just go on being what i know ,the disioance i felt or percieved dictated that i needed to think more and so i did and in so doing i realised not knowing who i am anymore and the feeling of being lost was actually a good thing coz it meant i was no longer the person i was (whom i didnt like) i was in transit to the next version of me ,....logic wins ,i like to think im smart enough to know how dumb i am so i created an out for me to get past the self pitty and humiliation of days where i did said or thought something stupid ,goes like this ....If today i really fuck things up make a fool of my self etc ....how much easier it will be tomorrow to be a better version of my self :grin: i dont know if that answers your question directly really but i wanted to chuck my 2 cents in in support of the thought provoking material in this thread
kudos
carry on
 
meowzician said:
No they don't. They don't get it. They process the world differently and they don't underrstand.

When I was young, I always worked within the system. In addition to my job, I did what I could to create harmony so that the system could work as well as possible.

But as I grew older, I found that some systems are just FUBAR and need to be brought down. Try telling THAT to a group.
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lost count of how many times pointing out ineficiencies and or systems that were in need of expanding got me in trouble with the people who imo should have thanked me and asked if i had more to offer ,...nope shut down shut out and persecuted when time/fate proved me right ,ive tried a billion ways to explain myself and or the situation but it all get taken as an attack or insult or trouble making .....my eyes have rolled so much i can see my bum .
i feel ya
 
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