Clinton vs Trump, Trump vs Clinton

[brightmoon]

The type of religion is not the problem, its how the religion is practiced.

Even Zen Buddhism which preaches peace and harmony was sucked into supporting the brutality of Japanese militarism in World War 2. Consider this: A famous quote is from Harada Daiun Sogaku (Rōshi of the Sōtō school : "[If ordered to] march: tramp, tramp, or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest Wisdom [of Enlightenment]. The unity of Zen and war of which I speak extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war [now under way]

 

[Eventhorizon]

Built on lies???

Ummm...hate to break it to you but....

 

[Littlelissa]

To me calling someone a psychopath is extremely loaded term. Its not precise either, as is completely unsanctioned as term by any psychiatric or psychological association. If you accept it in its most broad definition it should include poor impulse control including problems with planning and foresight. Obama or Clinton never struck me as having poor impulse control or lacking in planning.

Are you arguing that all Presidents and high level politicians in recent memory have narcissistic/psychopathic qualities or just Secretary Clinton and President Obama? Is Henry Kissinger a psychopath or how about George Bush?

I don't want to comment on the particular politics that are being discussed this thread, but rather speak in more general terms about the nature of good and evil, at least from my point of view at the present moment in time. It is true that Psychopathy and some of the other cluster B personality disorders are defined and diagnosed through a set criteria of behaviours and traits. Obviously it is important when your talking about individuals in specific ways, to be clear about facts. You can't go around diagnosing people or wrongly assigning labels to them.
On the other hand, I think of psychopathy and psychopathic behaviour in more broad terms - in a generalised way, to understand the defining motivation of people's behaviour. I'm coming to the conclusion that the individual tendencies for evil that you see on the level of the individual (e.g. the psychopath- is also reflected on the macro level in society). The intrinsic dynamics of the motivation feels the same. For example in the @imaginary bloke video clip^ Madeleine Albright justifies the death of 1/2 million children,- to her the death of innocent children is justified,- the ends justify the means.
Social Psychologist Philip Zimbardo describes the how authoritarianism within social institutions,- how they are set up and managed,- proliferate and filter down. The little men end up behaving like animals. This is not to deny free will and responsibility, but to take note of the fact that systems, and people responsible for institutions have a responsibility for the culture that they perpetuate. Zimbardo stated that the Abu Gharib abuses should not be seen as the result of a few 'bad apples' but should be seen as the result of a few bad barrels.
In Nichiren Buddism there is a concept which I think describes this well. The Devil King of the 6th Heaven (Buddhism uses a lot of analogy to describe ideas).

"The devil king of the sixth heaven, the king who makes free use of others' efforts for his own pleasure, is so called because it dwells in the highest of the six heavens of the world of desire. We could think of it as the embodiment of the devilish nature of power. The devil king of the sixth heaven can be thought of as the fundamental tendency to seek to use everything and everyone as a means. In this sense, this is a natural inclination that all beings possesses....The universe and one's own life are in essence are one. Even though people may understand this intellectually, usually they fail to grasp it in the depths of their lives. This could be termed fundamental darkness. Because of this ignorance about the true nature of life, people try to make everything and everyone in the universe serve them, to turn them into a means'.

The Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra Volume III, Daisaku Ikeda. p54

 

[brightmoon]

I agree with you @melissa* in many ways. You post was excellent and I might even say profound.

Does the end justify the means?

Consider what Machiavelli has to say on this subject:

In the actions of all men, and especially of princes, where there is no court to appeal to, one looks to the end. So let prince win and maintain his state: the means will always be judged honourable, and will be praised by everyone.

Note that Machiavelli says "means will always be judged honourable" not that they are honourable. The Prince may be seen as a satire on the subject of absolute power rather than a primer on how to keep it. Some say that this quote was plagiarized by Machiavelli and actually originates with Ovid.

In those that have power, are there difficult decisions to be made. Another question: does sacrficing the few justify saving the many?

 

[dang]

I need a Trump-free year for the sake of decompression.

 

[Littlelissa]

In the actions of all men, and especially of princes, where there is no court to appeal to, one looks to the end. So let prince win and maintain his state: the means will always be judged honourable, and will be praised by everyone.

Note that Machiavelli says "means will always be judged honourable" not that they are honourable

where there is no court to appeal to, one looks to the end. Yes I think were fundamentally in agreement here.

 

[Skarekrow]

I find it retarded that people here trust Wikileaks more than Wikipedia...or one more than the other...give me a break, when it seems to fit with what your side is saying it’s all good, and when it doesn’t then it can’t be trusted.
Both are equally viable for manipulation of content.
Do you even hear yourself?

 

[Skarekrow]

The mainstream media might just have to begin a brand new round of defending Hillary Clinton on the issue of her mishandling of classified information through her private, unauthorized, and illegal email server. It appears another device – with copies of every deleted email – has been discovered!

Breitbart.com reports that a backup data device called a “Datto,” containing Clinton’s private emails exists. They report that Judicial Watch has discovered the device is in the possession of the FBI. They have now filed a FOIA request to pressure the agency into producing the long forgotten device, sending the FOIA request via Certified Mail so as to have a record of the request.

The existence of a full record of Hillary Clinton’s 33,000 deleted private emails could very well be a game changer… that is if the FBI produces the material in an expedited manner. With just 24 days until Election Day, every second counts.

[...]

A Datto device is an online backup service that creates copies of data kept on a physical server. In other words, it is tantamount to a mirror server that can be used to retrieve information in the event of a catastrophic server event…like, say, a server being BleachBit erased.

Hillary Clinton’s unauthorized and illegal home-brew email server was using a Datto device throughout its existence. This reality presents an opportunity for the Clinton team to launch into a full-blown panic given that the disjointed FBI investigation – and Wikileaks – has already confirmed that Clinton’s server illegally contained classified and Top Secret material.

That Clinton’s home-brew computer company didn’t realize her machine was still communicating with the Datto device until shortly before they surrendered it to the FBI, is a blunder that could cost Mrs. Clinton both the election and her freedom.

Wednesday afternoon, the Datto Company announced it had surrendered a “hardware device” to the FBI. They also said in a statement they had surrendered all Clinton emails the company had in its possession.

http://beforeitsnews.com/eu/2016/10...t-the-worst-news-of-the-campaign-2613546.html


Ditto, Hillary has got a device called "Datto".

Maybe that we will see Hillary's all deleted emails. Hopefully, Wikileaks has it this too.

The usefulness of technology is limited by the intelligence of its users.

You know I love you man...but you do know that Breitbart is running the Trump Campaign...like, literally in charge of it don’t you?
At this point, you can’t trust any media outlets...they are all arms of the larger.

Even if the content of the above article is 100% accurate, how could you trust it anymore than the facts posted on Hillary.com?

 

[Skarekrow]

The world has voted the Temple Mount, with foundations and a wall still in place, never existed. Lies. Don't let your minds wander.

And how exactly do those of the Christian faith justify voting for Trump?
He is boastful, arrogant, certainly not humble...we see his foundation is charitable with other people’s donations but not his own.
He is against a minimum wage increase, which would help the working poor...he is for returning health care back to the insurance companies (remember that?) instead of allowing a low-cost public option for the impoverished or working poor.
He is a mysogynist...so that fits with the Old Testament I guess...which also works for Saudi Arabia subjugating the women of their nation with their religious whims.
His running mate very clearly wishes to impose his Biblical views on the rest of the Country no matter what their own religious or non-religious viewpoint may be...Trump has stated that he would punish women who sought abortions - what fucking decade is this again?
Are we going to have LGBQT and “normal” drinking fountains and lunch counters again?
Not to mention the 11 million families he want to ship to Mexico...then build a mighty wall.
There is a ton of info out there as to why this is not a good idea and why the wall will never ever happen logistically. (Of course Immigration supports Trump, he will be a windfall of funding and they know it.)
This is why the Trump side is losing.

Trump represents...let’s see.
What are those 7 deadly sins again?
Greed - check
Covetousness - check (pussy grabber)
Pride - check
Anger - check
Gluttony - check (Mmmm, Trump brand steaks for dinner every night!)
Envy - Hmmm...probably of those with hair and normal sized hands.
Sloth - check...he is not a self-made man

And we still have yet to see his tax returns that show us how he has been contributing to our society as the middle class and working poor struggle, but yet still pay their fair share of taxes for our bridges and roads, police and fire, military and our Vets, Social Security and healthcare...or maybe just drinking water without poisonous levels of lead in it?
It has been noted again and again that the IRS is not stopping him from releasing them...there is no rule as he previously suggested...now it’s -
My lawyer says I can’t...*pout* sorry.
BS

This is not yours, or anyone else’s exclusive christian nation dude.

 

[CindyLou]

And how exactly do those of the Christian faith justify voting for Trump?
He is boastful, arrogant, certainly not humble...we see his foundation is charitable with other people’s donations but not his own.
He is against a minimum wage increase, which would help the working poor...he is for returning health care back to the insurance companies (remember that?) instead of allowing a low-cost public option for the impoverished or working poor.
He is a mysogynist...so that fits with the Old Testament I guess...which also works for Saudi Arabia subjugating the women of their nation with their religious whims.
His running mate very clearly wishes to impose his Biblical views on the rest of the Country no matter what their own religious or non-religious viewpoint may be...Trump has stated that he would punish women who sought abortions - what fucking decade is this again?
Are we going to have LGBQT and “normal” drinking fountains and lunch counters again?
Not to mention the 11 million families he want to ship to Mexico...then build a mighty wall.
There is a ton of info out there as to why this is not a good idea and why the wall will never ever happen logistically. (Of course Immigration supports Trump, he will be a windfall of funding and they know it.)
This is why the Trump side is losing.

Trump represents...let’s see.
What are those 7 deadly sins again?
Greed - check
Covetousness - check (pussy grabber)
Pride - check
Anger - check
Gluttony - check (Mmmm, Trump brand steaks for dinner every night!)
Envy - Hmmm...probably of those with hair and normal sized hands.
Sloth - check...he is not a self-made man

And we still have yet to see his tax returns that show us how he has been contributing to our society as the middle class and working poor struggle, but yet still pay their fair share of taxes for our bridges and roads, police and fire, military and our Vets, Social Security and healthcare...or maybe just drinking water without poisonous levels of lead in it?
It has been noted again and again that the IRS is not stopping him from releasing them...there is no rule as he previously suggested...now it’s -
My lawyer says I can’t...*pout* sorry.
BS

This is not yours, or anyone else’s exclusive christian nation dude.

Have you been through an audit? I'm sure you have. I was audited this year. No one in their right mind would do that.

 

[Skarekrow]

Have you been through an audit? I'm sure you have. I was audited this year. No one in their right mind would do that.

He isn’t being audited for all the other years (decades) he has not released.
There is no defense for being a tax dodger...he likes to say and so do conservatives that - if you could take those deductions you would too.
No, wrong...not everyone would.
And not everyone does.
And he wants to go back to Reaganomics?
It never worked...it destroyed our economy...that’s where the jobs went...NAFTA just put the nails in the coffin.

Of course, if he has paid taxes all these years then he should show that proudly should he not?
(And no, I don’t give anyone any reason to audit me.)

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger]

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger]

 

[CindyLou]

He isn’t being audited for all the other years (decades) he has not released.
There is no defense for being a tax dodger...he likes to say and so do conservatives that - if you could take those deductions you would too.
No, wrong...not everyone would.
And not everyone does.
And he wants to go back to Reaganomics?
It never worked...it destroyed our economy...that’s where the jobs went...NAFTA just put the nails in the coffin.

Of course, if he has paid taxes all these years then he should show that proudly should he not?
(And no, I don’t give anyone any reason to audit me.)

You have no proof that he's a tax dodger though. None at all. There isn't one shred of evidence pointing to it. Everything that was in the NYT from his previous tax return was legit and on the up and up. All that proved was that the journalists don't know shit about taxes, and again, no one in their right mind in the middle of an audit would release them until the audit was over. The IRS could just wrap up the audit so he could release them. No lawyer in the world would tell their clients that's an okay thing to do, and he's listening to them as he should. Why haven't you considered that? Because it's in someone's best interest to keep him from releasing them. The mystery works better than the truth.

You don't give anyone any reason to audit you? That's a very very strange statement. How could you say something like that? Do you pay federal income tax? Do you get any credits? Do you itemize? You take no deductions? How much do you pay in taxes per year vs. Donald? Do you spread out depreciation or do you take all your losses the next year? You realize that people are randomly selected for an audit at no fault of their own, right? Everyone takes every deduction they can. You don't? You just willingly send money to the government outside what you legally have to send? That's charity. You can't make someone give to the government more than what they owe because you think they ought to. Do you send more money than what you owe on your electric bill?

I see statements from people like this as being greedy. You want more of someone else's money outside what the tax code provides. You have no right to someone else's money outside the law, especially if they're paying more in than what you are paying. That's greed. Greed is greed. It isn't any less greed just because someone has a lot more than what you have and and everyone thought they were entitled to it than if they had just a little more and you wanted a piece of it.

It's not dodging taxes if you follow the law, the same law that all businesses and individuals big and small follow. There is no evidence at all that he is dodging taxes. None.

 

[CindyLou]

Paul Ryan is a POS

 

[Skarekrow]

You have no proof that he's a tax dodger though. None at all. There isn't one shred of evidence pointing to it. Everything that was in the NYT from his previous tax return was legit and on the up and up. All that proved was that the journalists don't know shit about taxes, and again, no one in their right mind in the middle of an audit would release them until the audit was over.

You don't give anyone any reason to audit you? That's a very very strange statement. How could you say something like that? Do you pay federal income tax? Do you get any credits? Do you itemize? You take no deductions? How much do you pay in taxes per year vs. Donald? Do you spread out depreciation or do you take all your losses the next year? You realize that people are randomly selected for an audit at no fault of their own, right?

I see statements from people like this as being greedy. You want more of someone else's money outside what the tax code provides. You have no right to someone else's money outside the law, especially if they're paying more in than what you are paying. That's greed. Greed is greed. It isn't any less greed just because someone has a lot more than what you have and and everyone thought they were entitled to it than if they had just a little more and you wanted a piece of it.

It's not dodging taxes if you follow the law, the same law that all businesses and individuals big and small follow. There is no evidence at all that he is dodging taxes. None.

Your must be joking.
"I see statements from people like this as being greedy.”
But when Trump says how smart he is for paying zero taxes for the years we know about he isn’t somehow greedy?


I realize people are randomly selected, but they are also selected for “red flags”.
And just so you know...I always pay all my taxes, and yes, took what minimal deductions are available to the working class...but those are more taxes than we know Trump has paid.
There are many loopholes available to the rich that the rest of the working class cannot use.
(Wonder how those became tax law? It still doesn’t make it right either.)
I used to have credit cards when I was younger, but eventually decided it was smarter to just pay for things I have immediate money or saved money for - and I cut them up.
Which makes tax time very easy.

I don’t want MORE of someone else’s money...I want that someone else to fucking pay their FAIR share if they are going to live and benefit from our society.
If Trump is going to cut taxes even lower than Reagan did, then where are we going to get the money to fund anything?
If right now, we have 65,000 bridges deemed “unsafe” and in need of replacement or repair...if right now we have no money to fix the pipes in Flint so no other children get lead poisoning....or we have no money for schools, healthcare, social security, our Vets, etc., etc., where is it going to come from?

How about the estimated $21 Trillion in illegal offshore bank accounts that isn’t being taxed because it’s being hidden by the rich?
Or companies like GE and Shell that not only pay no taxes as they destroy our environment, but we give them subsides to boot.
In other words - the hard earned money of the people, taxed by the government and given to them even though they and many other giant corporations make record profits year after year.
Shouldn’t they pay?

Because right now the middle class and working poor are being fleeced at every turn.
And yet...somehow, the conservative base likes to make the poor the villains...them and the illegal immigrants...it’s all them draining the economy right?
Even though our military spends more than the next 10 major military forces spend combined.
Or a huge portion of folks working at places like Walmart still don’t make a living wage and are again subsidized by other worker’s tax dollars as food stamps.

I find it distasteful that you shame me for trying to change tax laws that benefit only the very rich, that is opposite how I think, do not put words in my mouth unless you know me damn well.

The whole thing is - we don’t know, because he won’t show us those other years that aren’t being audited...so one assumes (right or wrongly) that he doesn’t want people to see something.
We don’t know if he owes money to China or Russia, which is something that is kind of important to know if someone holding the Presidency is being leveraged by a foreign power.

As for proof...how much do you need?
Donald Trump Acknowledges Not Paying Federal Income Taxes for Years
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/10/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html?_r=0

Vanity Fair
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/06/the-great-trump-tax-mysteries

 

[CindyLou]

@Skarekrow

I can't believe you thought I was trying to shame you. I wasn't trying to shame you. We disagree on a some things, but I am not trying to shame you for your beliefs. I told you I see statements like that as being greedy. I didn't say that I thought you were greedy or a bad person. I don't think you're a bad person. If I was to share that same line of thought I could say that you were shaming me for being audited as if I had done something unscrupulous to deserve the audit. I assumed you didn't mean it that way towards me.

It's not loopholes. It's tax code. It's perfectly legal and every accountant in the world will follow the law as it is written because that is their job. I wasn't aware of any credit card deductions but I can take mortgage interest tax deduction, child exemptions, child care deductions, travel, car, and mileage expenses, depreciation and home office expenses, etc. Those aren't loopholes. I have income from multiple states. You don't have to be rich to have complicated taxes. One year I had to file four separate state returns. If you own a small business with five employees and you would be filing the same as DT because the law allows it and you're a fool if you pay more than one cent more than the law allows. His statement about being smart was stupid to make because it was terrible timing but it's not any less true. Would a smart person pay more taxes than they owed or just pay what they owed?

A lot of people who make under 50k a year don't pay any federal income tax either. The working poor if they have children don't pay any either they get the ETIC and end up getting more money than what they originally owed BACK from the government combined with the child credits, etc.

Donald pays more in taxes than I do, even if he pays no federal income tax. I have no right to say he ought to pay more than what he legally owes. The problem is the stupid tax code.

If you have a problem with Walmart Hillary is their bestie. What Walmart is doing with their employees is repulsive on every level. I completely agree with that.

 

[Skarekrow]

@Skarekrow

I can't believe you thought I was trying to shame you. I wasn't trying to shame you. We disagree on a some things, but I am not trying to shame you for your beliefs. I told you I see statements like that as being greedy. I didn't say that I thought you were greedy or a bad person. I don't think you're a bad person. If I was to share that same line of thought I could say that you were shaming me for being audited as if I had done something unscrupulous to deserve the audit. I assumed you didn't mean it that way towards me.

It's not loopholes. It's tax code. It's perfectly legal and every accountant in the world will follow the law as it is written because that is their job. I wasn't aware of any credit card deductions but I can take mortgage interest tax deduction, child exemptions, child care deductions, travel, car, and mileage expenses, depreciation and home office expenses, etc. Those aren't loopholes. I have income from multiple states. You don't have to be rich to have complicated taxes. One year I had to file four separate state returns. If you own a small business with five employees and you would be filing the same as DT because the law allows it and you're a fool if you pay more than one cent more than the law allows. His statement about being smart was stupid to make because it was terrible timing but it's not any less true. Would a smart person pay more taxes than they owed or just pay what they owed?

A lot of people who make under 50k a year don't pay any federal income tax either. The working poor if they have children don't pay any either they get the ETIC and end up getting more money than what they originally owed BACK from the government combined with the child credits, etc.

Donald pays more in taxes than I do, even if he pays no federal income tax. I have no right to say he ought to pay more than what he legally owes. The problem is the stupid tax code.

If you have a problem with Walmart Hillary is their bestie. What Walmart is doing with its employees is repulsive on every level. I completely agree with that. If you have a problem with the tax code look at who helped write it that way. If you don't like offshore tax shelters Hillary isn't your gal either. The conservative base today isn't demonizing anyone other than the corrupt part of our government, and the media.

I wasn’t trying to shame you...I have had complicated tax years as well...I was an independent contractor for Johnson & Johnson’s DePuy line of surgical implants, tools, biologics, etc. where I have had to deduct all my own taxes and all the fun BS that comes along with it.
I was only saying I don’t have anything complicated these days that would make for much of an audit...there is nothing there to really audit...it’s as simplified as it can be.
It’s not easy to get and maintain welfare...especially if they are getting actual monies and not food stamps...they have strict guidelines and cut-off amounts - you see, I’ve been to the top and I’ve navigated to bottom as well...it’s given me pretty good perspective imho. But that is just that - an opinion.

I can’t argue that the tax code is what it is...it is full of purposeful loopholes...the difference is...take for instance myself...I can’t just call up my Representative and expect to actually get him on the phone much less listen to my opinion on such and such or have him change tax laws to benefit me and my imaginary company if I had one.
So I don’t think that the difference of opinion between us is that our tax code needs to be changed...but more - how, and why, where, and by whom?
Well there is some common ground.

Also...not thrilled about Hillary...Bernie was my man.
But that’s okay...we can agree to disagree with the how and the who.
I wasn’t kidding about the estimated $21 trillion....that isn’t okay with me...that basically tells me that the working/middle class on down has been shouldering the majority of the tax burden while those who paying taxes wouldn’t significantly effect their lives overall as immediately as is does for the non-rich get away with paying jack shit all because they have money.
Money doesn’t = free speech
Money doesn’t = get one into heaven
Money shouldn’t let you be a shoe-in as the party's candidate...(both sides)

I am not against capitalism, I am against those with money abusing their power to fleece the rest of society as was done in the Wall St. collapse...as has and is being done by medical insurers and the pharmaceutical companies (still the number one reason for filing bankruptcy in the US sadly)
We pay the most in the world for our medical care and yet are ranked 37th in terms of quality of care and outcomes.
This is imho, because we don’t have a public option...we still are letting the insurers run the show.

Anyhow...seriously, I could never vote Trump in without seeing the taxes.
The leverage issue is one that could be a real issue.
Not only that, but I take issue with who he represents himself to be...his insults to numerous groups of people, his lack of substantial plans (also the rapiness), and him surrounding himself with the people he has, including his VP pick of Pence who has made it very known that he will force his religion on the nation.
That’s a no-go for me.

 

[Eventhorizon]

@Skarekrow

I can't believe you thought I was trying to shame you. I wasn't trying to shame you. We disagree on a some things, but I am not trying to shame you for your beliefs. I told you I see statements like that as being greedy. I didn't say that I thought you were greedy or a bad person. I don't think you're a bad person. If I was to share that same line of thought I could say that you were shaming me for being audited as if I had done something unscrupulous to deserve the audit. I assumed you didn't mean it that way towards me.

It's not loopholes. It's tax code. It's perfectly legal and every accountant in the world will follow the law as it is written because that is their job. I wasn't aware of any credit card deductions but I can take mortgage interest tax deduction, child exemptions, child care deductions, travel, car, and mileage expenses, depreciation and home office expenses, etc. Those aren't loopholes. I have income from multiple states. You don't have to be rich to have complicated taxes. One year I had to file four separate state returns. If you own a small business with five employees and you would be filing the same as DT because the law allows it and you're a fool if you pay more than one cent more than the law allows. His statement about being smart was stupid to make because it was terrible timing but it's not any less true. Would a smart person pay more taxes than they owed or just pay what they owed?

A lot of people who make under 50k a year don't pay any federal income tax either. The working poor if they have children don't pay any either they get the ETIC and end up getting more money than what they originally owed BACK from the government combined with the child credits, etc.

Donald pays more in taxes than I do, even if he pays no federal income tax. I have no right to say he ought to pay more than what he legally owes. The problem is the stupid tax code.

If you have a problem with Walmart Hillary is their bestie. What Walmart is doing with their employees is repulsive on every level. I completely agree with that.

Yep. I am a capitalist through and through until something better comes along and I agree Walmart shouldn't be allowed to exist as it does. Its not the only company either where thats true.

 

[ImaginaryBloke]

Im the first person to bad mouth Obama. But whats done is whats done. If you find a legal way to hold him accountable for what hes done to America I am on board. But who cares what his family says about him? People are people ...I dont need to watch someones soap opera. Cant tell what Trump is thinking. People will vote for him rather than Hillary for buddying up with his half brother? Stick going after Hillarys juggler. He makes himself look like a clown more everyday he does wacked stuff like this.

You know I love you man...but you do know that Breitbart is running the Trump Campaign...like, literally in charge of it don’t you?
At this point, you can’t trust any media outlets...they are all arms of the larger.

Even if the content of the above article is 100% accurate, how could you trust it anymore than the facts posted on Hillary.com?

Yeah, you are right, both of you. I got swooped by tabloid gossip.

Buuut, if there is a fourth debate, not announced in advance, where some unknown Obama relative makes a guest appearance, after the "final" third debate, then you two "boyz" owe me an apology.