How do NJ's experience memories?

[wolly.green]

Hi everyone! I really want to understand how NJ's experience memories? I have a rough understanding, but I want to know if it is correct. So, from my knowledge of MBTI, I suspect an NJ's memory is affected primarily by Ni and Se. Ni works by taking Se experience and condensing it into a singular meaning. Se takes in as much sensory information as possible and Ni tries to unify it by finding just the right intuition. Ni tries to find a symbol that represents, or stands for that sensory information.

Each of these Ni intuitions, or symbols represent some set of Se sensory experiences. A single Ni intuition does not have to represent one set of Se sensory experiences however, it can represent a whole group of them that are related in some abstract sense. So, for example, you may use the same Ni intuition to represent your Se experience of different people. In other words, different people can have the same 'essence'.

Now when NJ's experience memories, they are actually experiencing these Ni intuitions and their associated Se experiences. This gives their memories are sort of movie like quality, where they are seeing things as they must have been (Se) according to that memories essence (Ni). If this is the case, then it follows that Ni intuitions that represent more than one person can sometimes trick you into thinking your memory is about one person, when really it is about another. By virtue of the fact that your memories are like abstract symbols that represent real physical experiences, you can sometimes confuse one experience for another with the same symbol

Am I right?

 

[Sandie33]

By virtue of the fact that your memories are like abstract symbols that represent real physical experiences, you can sometimes confuse one experience for another with the same symbol

Am I right?

No. Maybe for some, but I think not.

 

[Ginny]

Hi everyone! I really want to understand how NJ's experience memories? I have a rough understanding, but I want to know if it is correct. So, from my knowledge of MBTI, I suspect an NJ's memory is affected primarily by Ni and Se. Ni works by taking Se experience and condensing it into a singular meaning. Se takes in as much sensory information as possible and Ni tries to unify it by finding just the right intuition. Ni tries to find a symbol that represents, or stands for that sensory information.

Each of these Ni intuitions, or symbols represent some set of Se sensory experiences. A single Ni intuition does not have to represent one set of Se sensory experiences however, it can represent a whole group of them that are related in some abstract sense. So, for example, you may use the same Ni intuition to represent your Se experience of different people. In other words, different people can have the same 'essence'.

Now when NJ's experience memories, they are actually experiencing these Ni intuitions and their associated Se experiences. This gives their memories are sort of movie like quality, where they are seeing things as they must have been (Se) according to that memories essence (Ni). If this is the case, then it follows that Ni intuitions that represent more than one person can sometimes trick you into thinking your memory is about one person, when really it is about another. By virtue of the fact that your memories are like abstract symbols that represent real physical experiences, you can sometimes confuse one experience for another with the same symbol

Am I right?

I think you mistake the basic features of the cogntive functions. It's nothing to worry about, it is rather difficult. I have only been learning about this for a couple of months and I still don't know if I get it completely.

The only function to do with memory is Si, the INFJs last shadow function. It is sensing which is directed inward, therefore it has to with remembering things. Being our last shadow function, it is not highly valued, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we're bad at it. Si is also a function determining how you care for your (and other's) well-being. We mostly have to remember this, or need someone else to do it for us, because it can happen that we forget about our physical needs, like nutrition. At least that happens to me. This mixture of caring and memory is what makes Si-doms have the reputation of being traditionalists.

My memory works in flashes, nothing more, but if I want to remember it fully, I need to consult others. It can happen that incomplete memories are fed into Ni and then Ni fills the gaps. It gives that memory a dream-like quality because it is (after that process) not real. It stops being a memory. For it to become better, I'd have to train it.

Se feeds Ni only in terms of present sensory input and putting things out there. Se only has to do with the environment at the present moment and our interaction with it.

There are probably other functions which can also be involved in creating memories and retaining them, but this is basically how it works.

 

[Pin]

I just wait for the pictures to show up.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Depends on what I am doing. If trying to solve a problem or create a solution, it is run across other similar experiences and asked "will this or something like this work here?" A series of scenarios and possible outcomes are thought of. If any are viable they are raised a level to possible and of what's the most likely to be achieved through the needed criteria is most often the choice that wins out.
Another memory can be triggered by a smell. These are usually more fluid and full of often irrelevant inform such as emotion. Pumpkin pie makes me think of the holidays when family is around and all past instances where the smell was present. Here there is no focus and I will generally allow memorys to go where they will on their own.

 

[Ginny]

Depends on what I am doing. If trying to solve a problem or create a solution, it is run across other similar experiences and asked "will this or something like this work here?" A series of scenarios and possible outcomes are thought of. If any are viable they are raised a level to possible and of what's the most likely to be achieved through the needed criteria is most often the choice that wins out.
Another memory can be triggered by a smell. These are usually more fluid and full of often irrelevant inform such as emotion. Pumpkin pie makes me think of the holidays when family is around and all past instances where the smell was present. Here there is no focus and I will generally allow memorys to go where they will on their own.

Would you say that recalling facts, even if you cannot picture their experiential origin (i.e. where you got them from), are memories? For me, if I were to solve an equation, I act on what I'd associate with factual knowledge more than experiences. At least this kind of thing is what I read into your first statement.

Of course, any memory may be triggered by sensory input, not just by smell, also aural sensations can trigger memories, e.g. I get it more often from music. Well, I have an example in mind which brought this pattern to my attention.

 

[Asa]

I really like this question and thread. Thanks you for asking it @wolly.green . It's an interesting topic.

I don't know how to answer it. For my entire life until @ 2 years ago, I was relied upon for my memory. I could recall people, events, places, text, visuals, etc, in great detail. (I take a medication now for a chronic illness that affects my memory to some extent. It felt like I was losing one of the best parts of being me. ) I've never stopped to put together how I remember, or how my memory works. It was never something I had to pay attention to, or try to do. It just 'was'. I will try to figure this out now.
I never studied, or did memory exercises in grade - high school, and even in college, "studying" usually meant "reading once".

If you want to know what triggers memory - I feel like informations, ideas/imagination and memories are sloshing around in my brain at all times – ready to access. I don't mean randomly, but in keeping with current work or personal topics I'm focused on at the time. Sounds, smells, phrases, etc, can trigger memories, but that is not specific to NJs. Stepping away from an intellectual task and doing something that frees the brain can help trigger memories or ideas/imagination about that task, but that is not specific to NJs, either.

 

[wolly.green]

I really like this question and thread. Thanks you for asking it @wolly.green . It's an interesting topic.

I don't know how to answer it. For my entire life until @ 2 years ago, I was relied upon for my memory. I could recall people, events, places, text, visuals, etc, in great detail. (I take a medication now for a chronic illness that affects my memory to some extent. It felt like I was losing one of the best parts of being me. ) I've never stopped to put together how I remember, or how my memory works. It was never something I had to pay attention to, or try to do. It just 'was'. I will try to figure this out now.
I never studied, or did memory exercises in grade - high school, and even in college, "studying" usually meant "reading once".

If you want to know what triggers memory - I feel like informations, ideas/imagination and memories are sloshing around in my brain at all times – ready to access. I don't mean randomly, but in keeping with current work or personal topics I'm focused on at the time. Sounds, smells, phrases, etc, can trigger memories, but that is not specific to NJs. Stepping away from an intellectual task and doing something that frees the brain can help trigger memories or ideas/imagination about that task, but that is not specific to NJs, either.

I asked because an NJ I know experiences his memories as movies that play in his head. But that is absolutely not how I experience my memories. Does what my friend said resonate with you?

 

[Asa]

I asked because an NJ I know experiences his memories as movies that play in his head. But that is absolutely not how I experience my memories. Does what my friend said resonate with you?

I've heard memory described this way, but I wouldn't describe it this way. It's like a movie in some ways, but it is more like I'm there again, not watching. The memory is all around me, 3D, not flat with me as the audience.

--- PS: As an exercise, I pulled up a memory of my grandmother's house. I can confirm that it "seemed", even "felt", like I was walking through her home again. I can remember the light in the hallway, the scent, the texture of the rug on my feet, all the furniture and fixtures, etc, as if I am there.
J.K. Rowling self-identifies as an NJ (INFJ) and she wrote about the 'pensieve', which allowed a person to jump into a memory and experience it as if it were happening to the viewer "in the now". This seems like an exaggerated and fanciful way of how my memory works... because obviously I am still aware of my present surroundings, though my mind is picturing something else.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Would you say that recalling facts, even if you cannot picture their experiential origin (i.e. where you got them from), are memories? For me, if I were to solve an equation, I act on what I'd associate with factual knowledge more than experiences. At least this kind of thing is what I read into your first statement.

Of course, any memory may be triggered by sensory input, not just by smell, also aural sensations can trigger memories, e.g. I get it more often from music. Well, I have an example in mind which brought this pattern to my attention.

Sure. We know that memories do not stay completely intact. From the second you record something it begins to change. Your brain simply tries to the best of its ability to hold on to it. So even if you can't remember where a memory happened, no information would be there at all unless it is at least in part still a memory.

 

[wolly.green]

I've heard memory described this way, but I wouldn't describe it this way. It's like a movie in some ways, but it is more like I'm there again, not watching. The memory is all around me, 3D, not flat with me as the audience.

--- PS: As an exercise, I pulled up a memory of my grandmother's house. I can confirm that it "seemed", even "felt", like I was walking through her home again. I can remember the light in the hallway, the scent, the texture of the rug on my feet, all the furniture and fixtures, etc, as if I am there.

Wow that's so interesting! I experience my memories as a list of facts and impressions. There is almost no sensory component to them. Do you think this has to do with Se?

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

I really like this question and thread. Thanks you for asking it @wolly.green . It's an interesting topic.

I don't know how to answer it. For my entire life until @ 2 years ago, I was relied upon for my memory. I could recall people, events, places, text, visuals, etc, in great detail. (I take a medication now for a chronic illness that affects my memory to some extent. It felt like I was losing one of the best parts of being me. ) I've never stopped to put together how I remember, or how my memory works. It was never something I had to pay attention to, or try to do. It just 'was'. I will try to figure this out now.
I never studied, or did memory exercises in grade - high school, and even in college, "studying" usually meant "reading once".

If you want to know what triggers memory - I feel like informations, ideas/imagination and memories are sloshing around in my brain at all times – ready to access. I don't mean randomly, but in keeping with current work or personal topics I'm focused on at the time. Sounds, smells, phrases, etc, can trigger memories, but that is not specific to NJs. Stepping away from an intellectual task and doing something that frees the brain can help trigger memories or ideas/imagination about that task, but that is not specific to NJs, either.

This is me in a lot of ways.

I've heard memory described this way, but I wouldn't describe it this way. It's like a movie in some ways, but it is more like I'm there again, not watching. The memory is all around me, 3D, not flat with me as the audience.

--- PS: As an exercise, I pulled up a memory of my grandmother's house. I can confirm that it "seemed", even "felt", like I was walking through her home again. I can remember the light in the hallway, the scent, the texture of the rug on my feet, all the furniture and fixtures, etc, as if I am there.

So is this. When I decide to engage the memory or when it decides to engage me, it's like reliving it again in the present rather than remembering it from the past. Sometimes the olfactory gets excited and I'm flooded with feelings and images of the past.

 

[Asa]

Wow that's so interesting! I experience my memories as a list of facts and impressions. There is almost no sensory component to them. Do you think this has to do with Se?

It really could. Se helps us notice details about our surroundings when we are absorbing our environment in the present, so it is "retelling" those details in memory.
I added a bit to my post above about JK Rowling, too, who self-identifies as an INFJ. Her pensieve could give clues to how NJs process memory.

Now I'm fascinated that you remember lists! INTPs are detail-oriented, INFJs and INTJs are "big-picture" oriented. I'm going to ask all my INTP friends if they remember in lists!

 

[wolly.green]

It really could. Se helps us notice details about our surroundings when we are absorbing our environment in the present, so it is "retelling" those details in memory.
I added a bit to my post above about JK Rowling, too, who self-identifies as an INFJ. Her pensieve could give clues to how NJs process memory.

Now I'm fascinated that you remember lists! INTPs are detail-oriented, INFJs and INTJs are "big-picture" oriented. I'm going to ask all my INTP friends if they remember in lists!

This is true. We ARE detail oriented, yet paradoxically also "big picture" thinkers. Anyway, yeah you totally should! In fact I'm pretty sure all NP's experience memories in the same way that I do!

 

[Sandie33]

I've heard memory described this way, but I wouldn't describe it this way. It's like a movie in some ways, but it is more like I'm there again, not watching. The memory is all around me, 3D, not flat with me as the audience.

--- PS: As an exercise, I pulled up a memory of my grandmother's house. I can confirm that it "seemed", even "felt", like I was walking through her home again. I can remember the light in the hallway, the scent, the texture of the rug on my feet, all the furniture and fixtures, etc, as if I am there.
J.K. Rowling self-identifies as an NJ (INFJ) and she wrote about the 'pensieve', which allowed a person to jump into a memory and experience it as if it were happening to the viewer "in the now". This seems like an exaggerated and fanciful way of how my memory works... because obviously I am still aware of my present surroundings, though my mind is picturing something else.

Similar to me. Though, You said it much more elloquently. I could not figure out how to explain what I call a 'picture reel'. I can almost pin point the date and time of a memory, who was there and where it took place but only since since 1988. Anything prior to that is not quite so accurate because of brain trauma. Learning how to memorize life came after.

 

[Eventhorizon]

There are times at night when it's dark and I am in bed if I concentrate hard enough with my eyes closed I can imagine being in my bed as a kid in my parents house. It's just like no time has passed and I could walk up the stairs and nothing will have changed. Sometimes.... I worry a bit if I stay in that memory to long I'll never leave. I'll just lose my mind and here in this time they'll cart my body off to some asylum.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

Sometimes.... I worry a bit if I stay in that memory to long I'll never leave. I'll just lose my mind and here in this time they'll cart my body of to some asylum

 

[Ginny]

It really could. Se helps us notice details about our surroundings when we are absorbing our environment in the present, so it is "retelling" those details in memory.
I added a bit to my post above about JK Rowling, too, who self-identifies as an INFJ. Her pensieve could give clues to how NJs process memory.

I really have to notice detailsto remember them, and also then I don't remember them for long. It used to be much better when I was younger.

I'll probably scold myself later for asking this, I've only been up for half an hour, but here it goes: do you think if I practised meditation that I'd train my memory?

 

[Asa]

I'll probably scold myself later for asking this, I've only been up for half an hour, but here it goes: do you think if I practised meditation that I'd train my memory?

There are a lot of exercises you can use to train your memory. Talk to @Skarekrow about meditation. It is very helpful for him.

Have any INFPs weighed in about whether they remember things in list form, or as a movie/in 3D? I tried to ask a close INFP friend and she said both, but explained 'list' when she is around other people, and 3D when she is sleeping. I don't consider dreams "memories", even if they are about something that happened in the past, but she didn't differentiate.

 

[Wyote]

By virtue of the fact that your memories are like abstract symbols that represent real physical experiences, you can sometimes confuse one experience for another with the same symbol

I think this is a really interesting idea. I don't know how valid it is or anything, but there have been a couple of cases of my memories doing this. Something people don't like admitting is how unreliable their memory can really be. It can be pretty damn good sure, but rarely if ever infallible.

As for my own memories, of which I seem to have better than most, I use abstract feelings and ideas as an anchor for a memory. Each one has it's own sort of essence as you put it. I see things very clearly with a lot of detail (the more I focus) and over time it becomes harder to focus on the details but for tons and tons of memories I've not yet lost the essence of them, even going all the way back to six or eight years old I can recall some events and place myself there again as if to experience it all over again. Like a VR film in my mind's eye.