A Question for Feminists

[larcipelago]

I recently spoke to my lady friend. She is an assistant lecturer and very feminist.
The benefit of being an INFJ is people throw everything to you, yeah ... Just like a garbage bin.

She explained her annoyance about how men tend to look over her appearance rather than what she said. In particular, she was speaking in a webinar forum, where she, in my opinion gave a stunning speech, and deliver strong substance about the topics. The video was broadcast via simulcast, including Youtube. What dissapoint her when she saw comments that embedded some words she consider as "sexist".

They are: "Sweety, Pretty," etc. I get her point, since she is one of a rare female profesional working in man-dominated field. She wants people to listen to what she said, not look at how her look.

To give an illustration is like in this Youtube comments:



As I find it interesting, I ask her:

"Dont you get flattered at all people call you pretty, sweety?"

She: "I have passed through that period. No flirting could work for me."

Me: "Let me clarify with an example, if this lady speaks noone will use any sexist word like: sweety, pretty. Rather people will listen to what she say?"



She: "Somethung like that."

Me: "I have watched your performance. You delivered strong arguments. But since you raise this point. May I give you a bit suggestion? Do you know why in many tv station we dont want a lady news anchor to dress over attratively, that is exactly to avoid your kind of complaint. People look at you more than they hear you."

Here is the debate starting.

She: "That is so sexist. Why cant a beautiful lady talk smart and you boys listen carefully?"

Me: "Coz we wont. It is in the nature. What can you expect? There are some wank*rs outhere may take a picture of you for their private business in their room? Also, there are teenage girls noticing your eyebrows, lipsticks, making you inefficient speakers. If you want to be viral, then you got the recipee, be pretty and a bit revealing. but if you want profesional boys to listen, something must be changed with your appearance. I bet you were over excited you want to look pretty in the forum right? Dont, just be descent. So, it is your word that matters, not your look. That is my advise."

She: "(silent) Despite all your words sound sexist to me, may be I will take it, but still it isn't fair. Who doesnt want to look pretty.

Me: (laughing) just let it go sweety, it is the way the world is.

I met many more feminists like that, I am wondering is there any of you, ever has similar case, where some compliments made by boys became sexist words in your ear? Are there many feminist here?

 

[Asa]

Looking less attractive won’t cause a more positive response and won’t result in men taking her more seriously. Society still judges a woman’s worth based on her looks and desirability. If she is attractive, people may call her “pretty” and “cute”, but if she is unattractive, people will call her negative words and troll her. Some men won’t take her more seriously if she is less attractive. Even if men cannot see what a woman looks like, some men don’t take women as seriously as their male peers and superiors. (Please note that I am intentionally saying “some” to avoid the cringeworthy remark, “Not all men.” We know it isn’t all of you, but it is too many of you.)

She has the right to look however she wants, and to look however she feels most comfortable. It is the man’s responsibility to behave, act respectable, and pay attention, not hers. It’s his personal problem (which he should keep to himself) if he is attracted to her. Women often wear makeup and nice clothing for themselves and for other women (for inclusion, to bond, to be part of the culture, to look sophisticated or stylish, etc), not to ‘look sexy for men’. It isn’t about you.

If a man is uncomfortable with women, that is his problem, and he needs to fix it. It is not the woman’s problem. Women, "do not dull your shine".

Personally, I don’t mind compliments about my looks as long as those compliments are respectful and are not being used to manipulate. I only react strongly when the intent is predatory, or disrespectful. There is an expectation (in many arenas) that humans are eloquent, so various slip-ups and faux pas are perceived as intentional jabs. Humans are awkward and have trouble communicating effectively. The intention behind these awkward gestures is often harmless and friendly. Intention matters. While I agree people need to kick certain compliments to the curb (ie don’t call other adults “sweetie” or “honey”), I think many feminists are too strict about regulating these awkward human interactions and should give people more slack when the intention behind a faux pas was respectful.

The problem with such compliments and pre-occupations about beauty arrives when a woman says something of value, or gives a lecture or presentation, and all anyone says in response is, “She’s pretty,” and, “She’s sweet,” or even, “I like your makeup!”

To me, personally, it is OK to give a compliment (respectfully) after also saying something constructive and thoughtful that is on topic and proves that you were listening.

For example, “Thank you for your presentation on Quantum Mechanics. Could you elaborate on Planck’s constant and the Goldilocks number in your research? Thank you, and BTW, I love your outfit!”


In the two examples given:

1. Varun’s response is garbage and disrespectful. “She’s pretty.” Yes, that is a fact, but so what? Do you, Varun, have anything of substance to say?
2. Gary’s use of “sweetie” is condescending, and he mansplains. He is not respectful. It’s less about his word choice, though that isn't great, and more about his overall tone.

I don’t think it would change Varun and Gary’s blockheadedness if she “dressed down” and presented as less attractive.

 

[b7$sl1JC0]

All men that i know that use the word "sweetie" excessively are narcissistic or idiots!
And yes is many out there. This behavior towards a woman - without labels, just because she is a woman- is very disrespectful.
They are people with a lot of psychological gaps

 

[noisebloom]

I agree 100% with what @Asa said.

Men and women are hardwired to be physically attracted to each other, but people are so much more than their physical appearance. We live in a world overly dominated by men who are so possessed by their sexual ideals that they often fail to see women as equal human beings, and instead women are often seen only as objects of attraction. People in general want to look attractive, and looking attractive shouldn't affect how they are treated as human beings.

If I were a public speaker and the reception was more about my appearance than my topic, I would be livid... did anyone fucking listen to what I said and prepared for? This issue is much more of a reality for women than men.

So yeah, if I watch a YouTube video and I think the speaker is attractive, that's no fault of mine... but if I were literally so blinded by my attraction that I couldn't pay attention to the subject at hand (I'm not sure if this is a thing, but just for the sake of example), I need to be honest with myself that I didn't listen to the person. Actually implying to the person that I didn't listen (in a number of words) adds insult to injury.

 

[acd]

I agree 100% with what @Asa said.

Men and women are hardwired to be physically attracted to each other, but people are so much more than their physical appearance. We live in a world overly dominated by men who are so possessed by their sexual ideals that they often fail to see women as equal human beings, and instead women are often seen only as objects of attraction. People in general want to look attractive, and looking attractive shouldn't affect how they are treated as human beings.

If I were a public speaker and the reception was more about my appearance than my topic, I would be livid... did anyone fucking listen to what I said and prepared for? This issue is much more of a reality for women than men.

So yeah, if I watch a YouTube video and I think the speaker is attractive, that's no fault of mine... but if I were literally so blinded by my attraction that I couldn't pay attention to the subject at hand (I'm not sure if this is a thing, but just for the sake of example), I need to be honest with myself that I didn't listen to the person. Actually implying to the person that I didn't listen (in a number of words) adds insult to injury.

Well said. Spot on. High five!

 

[Pin]

In principle, it's fine to be physically attracted to someone but that shouldn't trump other considerations like their personality or temperament.

Personally, I tend not to compliment women on their appearance immediately after meeting them in most contexts. I'd have to establish a relationship with her first.