Your Independence

Flavus Aquila

Flavus Aquila

Finding My Place in the Sun
Banned
MBTI
INTJ - A
Enneagram
10000
How important is your Independence to you?

To what extent does your pursuit of independence go?

What are the limits?
 
Independence is great, I lived by myself for a few years but now (the last year or so) I live with a roommate so I can have more money. It's actually great having someone around, it turned out to be better than I expected.
 
I'm trying to think of a limit. There are a lot of different independence needs-- personally/relationship wise, professionally, politically.. Could you be more specific?

I mostly do things on my own without asking for help because it doesn't always occur to me to ask. This makes people I'm close with irritated with me sometimes. I was raised to do things myself and not impose at all costs, though..

A few years ago I was working a job and had a really daunting task to complete. I was one of many new hires. My manager approached me and said I was the only newb who didn't ask for help, then she kind of scolded me for not asking for help. It never occurred to me to ask. I thought I had to just complete this behemoth task myself--maybe to prove myself. Maybe I was being prideful. So it is to my detriment a lot of the time. I guess it was the company's way of troubleshooting who communicated their work needs well. I totally failed that test.
 
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I take independence too far, I think.

I tend to view interdependence as a form of weakness. "What, you couldn't figure out how to do it yourself, so you had to bother me about it?" Because that's my (super calloused) response to other people, I tend to think people will respond the same way if I ask them for help.

This leads to the all-too-familiar pattern: Don't ask for help → Convince myself that doing it myself will yield better results anyway→ Fail to live up to personal high standards → Break down in self-imposed isolation.

As far as politics or "independent thinking," I'm willing to tear apart popular ideologies just because they're popular. It's the same kind of pride. To think the same as someone else will make me weak like the masses (note the brutal judgment). "What, you couldn't figure out your opinion about that yourself?"

I guess my independence always has something to do with a desire for the power that comes from omniscience, and not wanting to bother anyone, or have anyone bother me. At its worst it has led me to willingly go hungry, make stupid, preventable mistakes at work, and contradict people when in essence I actually agreed with them, just so I could remain in the shadows of some fringe ideology.

It only cracks when my life is at stake, really; or if I'm coming close to damaging a relationship I consider a lifeline. Otherwise, despite knowing better, I suppose I'd rather feel capable than secure.
 
Jonathan said:
I take independence too far, I think.

I tend to view interdependence as a form of weakness. "What, you couldn't figure out how to do it yourself, so you had to bother me about it?" Because that's my (super calloused) response to other people, I tend to think people will respond the same way if I ask them for help.

This leads to the all-too-familiar pattern: Don't ask for help → Convince myself that doing it myself will yield better results anyway→ Fail to live up to personal high standards → Break down in self-imposed isolation.

As far as politics or "independent thinking," I'm willing to tear apart popular ideologies just because they're popular. It's the same kind of pride. To think the same as someone else will make me weak like the masses (note the brutal judgment). "What, you couldn't figure out your opinion about that yourself?"

I guess my independence always has something to do with a desire for the power that comes from omniscience, and not wanting to bother anyone, or have anyone bother me. At its worst it has led me to willingly go hungry, make stupid, preventable mistakes at work, and contradict people when in essence I actually agreed with them, just so I could remain in the shadows of some fringe ideology.

It only cracks when my life is at stake, really; or if I'm coming close to damaging a relationship I consider a lifeline. Otherwise, despite knowing better, I suppose I'd rather feel capable than secure.
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I have a hard time asking for help for myself, but I like to help out others when I can. But like you, I tend to think if I ask, I will be bothering someone and sometimes because I like to test myself. We just hired a new guy and I made up a few excel spreadsheets to help him get his work organized because he is taking some of my clients. I like to take people under my wing, but can get irritated if people start to rely on my help when they can do it themselves after awhile. But that seems to rarely happen. I like to see people become independent. Maybe because I think of when I was in new situations and how I would have liked to have had someone to show me the ropes. (Though I try not to be a busy body!) And all I needed to do was ask! I definitely think not being able to ask for help is a problem. Totally agree that you can cause more problems that way.
 
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How important is your Independence to you?

Very. I do and always have preferred independence. I don't like needing other people, and I especially don't like pushing my neediness onto another person. I also don't like feeling indebted to people.

To what extent does your pursuit of independence go?

It seems like my pursuit of Independence causes my wariness towards romantic relationships.

What are the limits?

I don't like going to medical or dental appointments alone. Shopping alone I'm okay with, but I enjoy myself better when with a friend (more focused when shopping alone though).
 
acd said:
I have a hard time asking for help for myself, but I like to help out others when I can. But like you, I tend to think if I ask, I will be bothering someone and sometimes because I like to test myself.
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INFJ16 said:
I don't like needing other people, and I especially don't like pushing my neediness onto another person. I also don't like feeling indebted to people.
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Interesting similarities and differences here: it looks like a common motivator for independence could be proving your own capability. There's the concept of unreasonably controlling/imposing on others or unreasonably being controlled/imposed on. At the root of it seems to be this idea of burden as a method of control. The idea of people asking for more than others are willing to provide, giving the asker an unjust advantage. Makes me wonder if the just distribution of scarce resources (survival, I guess) has a lot to do with it? The idea that competence has to do with not being duped or manipulated out of what is rightfully yours, and not doing the same to others by acting incompetent. Is it fair to say that there might be a somewhat Darwinian "survival of the fittest" mentality behind independence?
 
Jonathan said:
Interesting similarities and differences here: it looks like a common motivator for independence could be proving your own capability.
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It's not about proving my capabilities to myself or anyone else. It's more about the feeling of freedom, fulfillment, and comfort that comes with acting on my capabilities. I want to be independent not to prove that I can be, but because I enjoy how it feels.

I'll connect this to reaching out to others. I don't always like having to, but I love choosing to. I don't like having to be dependent on others for anything, but I like that it's an option...that some people are there if I want them. When an independent person wants you in their life...It means more in the sense that they don't feel that they need you, but they still want you.
 
INFJ16 said:
It's not about proving my capabilities to myself or anyone else. It's more about the feeling of freedom, fulfillment, and comfort that comes with acting on my capabilities. I want to be independent not to prove that I can be, but because I enjoy how it feels.

I'll connect this to reaching out to others. I don't always like having to, but I love choosing to. I don't like having to be dependent on others for anything, but I like that it's an option...that some people are there if I want them. When an independent person wants you in their life...It means more in the sense that they don't feel that they need you, but they still want you.
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Points taken! I like the way you experience independence a heck of a lot more than the way I do :). It would be nice if it felt like it was a choice, in my case, as opposed to a necessity. I wonder why that is...

What you said reminds me of my parents- they're two of the most fiercely independent people I know, and yet though they don't feel like they need each other, and likely would survive on their own, they choose to want each other instead, without it taking away from their sense of freedom.
 
Jonathan said:
Points taken! I like the way you experience independence a heck of a lot more than the way I do :). It would be nice if it felt like it was a choice, in my case, as opposed to a necessity. I wonder why that is...

What you said reminds me of my parents- they're two of the most fiercely independent people I know, and yet though they don't feel like they need each other, and likely would survive on their own, they choose to want each other instead, without it taking away from their sense of freedom.
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It makes perfect sense to me. People don't like being forced; people like choices. You don't want to have to be independent, but you like having the option.
 
Being both Ne dom and 7w8, being independent is huge for me. I don't like having a bunch of demands placed on me. However, as so/sx I like being a part of something. I want to be involved on my own terms but don't like to be forced. When I am involved on my own terms, I'll dedicate quite a bit to the group's success.
 
I will fight for independence to the point of ignorance. It is not a choice. It is built into the very fabric of my being.
The limits have been tested... thankfully I was able to get past ignorance and ask for help.
 
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