Unhealthy for INFJs to create art?

[jupiterswoon]

It sounds like the author of the article made a lot of generalizations- my way of thinking- take the "expert's advice" worth a grain of salt, if what you are doing works for you, just keep doing it.

I really liked the two part response that you wrote in relation to the article. IMHO- sports is INJ's jumping the stack. And this is from personal experience.

 

[Quiet]

MBTI functions probably influence the creation and manifestation of art in different ways. The functions are there for us to understand ourselves better, not to define who we are, what we are capable of, or to limit us. If people want to evolve beyond their 'box' than thats something to be celebrated. I think its natural for all humans to be creative.

 

[j654dgj7]

I used to write and compose music, and write poetry - and since I have stopped, I have actually become a lot more well-balanced emotionally. It could be other things that have come into play -- maturing perhaps

 

[jupiterswoon]

I've been thinking about this more- and it actually makes sense to me what they originally wrote, but only in the sense that if I am making a collage or making a drawing- with no intent or focus- I find it saps my energy and I am usually not pleased with the results- on the other hand if I am working to make a piece of art that involves some form of idealism and which is imbued with meaning- it comes quite easily and naturally to me and I can spend hours in an ecstatic state.

The difference between the two-

-Because I am not Fi, it's harder for me to make pieces based on my feelings in the moment, it can make me too introspective so that I lose all focus, becoming lethargic.

-If I am imbuing a piece with meaning as part of a larger scale project then I am using my Ni and Fe for better results.

It'd almost be cool to have a side forum where we showed art done during different stages, one with purpose and meaning, and one without and had people guess. I bet there'd be a big difference in the art work being presented.

 

[Trifoilum]

-Because I am not Fi, it's harder for me to make pieces based on my feelings in the moment, it can make me too introspective so that I lose all focus, becoming lethargic.

-If I am imbuing a piece with meaning as part of a larger scale project then I am using my Ni and Fe for better results.

Yes this.

Mine would be;
I cannot draw LONG emotional picture because when doing so...either I need to stay in that state for a long time, or the feeling soon subsides, leaving me...a little bit empty, the art more soulless.

I found that when it's a thought, more or less, it sticks longer.

 

[Barnabas]

can't see the text against the background of INFJblack

 

[z523x4gr98j]

@Trifoilum

The image I had in mind was a despot.

Yes, it seems like they believe the dominant function should have almost tyrannical control over all the other functions. And that sounds counter-productive to me. It sounds like that would just bolster your ego. Also, it would be highly impractical for INFJs, since we live in an Se world and we have to survive in it. How many people can make a living just by theorizing all the time? Not many! It's hard for INFJs to make it in the real world because most jobs require skill sets contrary to our functional stacking. It's not fair, but we must adapt to survive. Telling us that it's wrong for us to do so isn't helping us at all! They say it's bad for us to adapt in this way, but I don't see them offering any other realistic solutions. So their well-meant advice is only discouraging.

Also, I get a sense of 'experience' in her reply on your reply. (If we're playing the game of assumption, we're playing.)
As in, "I didn't know better back then, but now I see the folly of my mistake. You should too, because you're probably as clueless as I am back then."

Ugh, that's what was driving me crazy. She was nice enough not to use a condescending tone, but it's still obvious that she equated me with her former self and thought I'd inevitably learn the hard way, like she did.

I am still unable to express my thoughts / emotions and showed it in my drawing..in shapes or colors. Instead I ran away to empty details. Big in style, almost vapid in substance. Art-wise...I want to draw pretty, emotional art, for me.

I feel the same way about my art. I still enjoy the process, but I'm never as happy with the end product because it feels like it lacks substance. I look at that as part of the learning process, though. I just have to work through this phase until my art becomes more meaningful, as I want it to be.

The functions are there for us to understand ourselves better, not to define who we are, what we are capable of, or to limit us. If people want to evolve beyond their 'box' than thats something to be celebrated.

+1

I used to write and compose music, and write poetry - and since I have stopped, I have actually become a lot more well-balanced emotionally. It could be other things that have come into play -- maturing perhaps

What have you been spending your time on instead, since you stopped writing and composing? Throughout my teenage years until I was 20, I obsessively wrote my thoughts and the details of my day in journals. It wasn't uncommon for me to go through a new journal every week. But I was so caught up in recording all my thoughts and experiences that I didn't really live. Since I've stopped, I still have this nagging urge to write everything down so I won't forget it, but I resist it. I spend more time socializing and enjoying novel experiences, trying to live in the moment more.

I've been thinking about this more- and it actually makes sense to me what they originally wrote, but only in the sense that if I am making a collage or making a drawing- with no intent or focus- I find it saps my energy and I am usually not pleased with the results- on the other hand if I am working to make a piece of art that involves some form of idealism and which is imbued with meaning- it comes quite easily and naturally to me and I can spend hours in an ecstatic state.

The difference between the two-

-Because I am not Fi, it's harder for me to make pieces based on my feelings in the moment, it can make me too introspective so that I lose all focus, becoming lethargic.

-If I am imbuing a piece with meaning as part of a larger scale project then I am using my Ni and Fe for better results.

It'd almost be cool to have a side forum where we showed art done during different stages, one with purpose and meaning, and one without and had people guess. I bet there'd be a big difference in the art work being presented.

It was always such a chore for me to draw dull still lives in my studio art classes. I hated it. Especially in this one professor's class—he was an ISTP, I think—he always gave us vague notions of the kind of work he was expecting, yet his expectations were very specific. His life drawing/painting techniques did not come naturally to me and did not stimulate me at all.

I find it easier to create art as part of a larger project, too. For example, illustrating a story.

 

[j654dgj7]

What have you been spending your time on instead, since you stopped writing and composing? Throughout my teenage years until I was 20, I obsessively wrote my thoughts and the details of my day in journals. It wasn't uncommon for me to go through a new journal every week. But I was so caught up in recording all my thoughts and experiences that I didn't really live. Since I've stopped, I still have this nagging urge to write everything down so I won't forget it, but I resist it. I spend more time socializing and enjoying novel experiences, trying to live in the moment more.

The last song I wrote was for my then-girlfriend, and that was about a year ago. I have moved since then, and now I study law full time, so I have plenty of stuff to do. I too wrote my thoughts and details down - not in journals, but just wherever, really (maybe hoping for some one to see - I will leave that question to be answered by a future shrink). So, I guess my advice is to keep busy

Socializing is a double-edged sword for me. If I'm with my best friends, it's healthy for me mentally, and I live more in the moment. If I'm with too many people at once, it drains me completely - quickly.

 

[Untitled]

I was reading this forum post about Lenore Thomson's interpretation of Ni ( http://www.personalitynation.com/ju...-interpretation-introverted-intuition-ni.html )

Significant subsets of introverted intuitives (particularly INTJs) are drawn to Cyberpunk. This genre most encapsulating INTJs inferior function Sensation desire for physical and mental supremacy (or, ideally, a world in which strength and charisma have no power). (Though it's possible other types will be drawn to it for differing reasons)

I think you could pretty well read between the lines and replace "mental supremacy" (Te) to "social supremacy" (Fe) to illustrate the Se inferior problems.

In my own life and work I think those were the two defining stresses I faced in my own artistic work. I've been in exile and house arrest (not literal ;D) for some time now to grapple with the problem as to HOW exactly do I want to exist and express myself?
I don't personally think it's the WHAT as much as the HOW. I feel the real stresses that the "mystery INFJ" who's comments sparked this thread has faced may indicate a real problem that many in the creative professions have to face at one poit of another concerning the harsh reality of the fact of how "the system works" may not be entirely INFJ friendly. Things are done a certain way. In the music business for bands it's mostly first earning your stripes touring and building a rep, getting signed...yadda yadda...building an "artistic identity" and body of work. However much of it's just expected socializing and schmoozing, network building and if you want backing you've got to be somewhat "selling" because the labels etc would be taking a financial risk and want bang for their buck. Then there's the fact random people want to become involved with your private life for several reasons. ...Becoming an "idol" is kind of crazy (whatever the magnitude that it happens). People confuse you for some nut job because of the way Ni may express in outlandishly seeming ways in your work as you're working on some theme from unusual perspectives, yet in person you're subdued and "kind of ordinary" (Fe communication...lest hassle to play by the book unless to express or embody some distinct idea via a socio-visual "identity" ala David Bowie...but hey who can do that forever?) ..now all THAT combined is what I think can cause you to burn out...
Many of my favorite artists that I think are INFJ tend to become famous first, disillusioned next and retire from the limelight to beaver away just creating for the sake of creation almost (Like Trent Reznor and Kate Bush...Prince...etc). Some take a break and do something else (Leonard Cohen went to a monastery, Kate Bush became a housewife with a penchant for gardening.) Sometimes they emerge with a very different, more autonomous, less dependent of the outside world, way of working bringing these artistic visions to life. Kate Bush who is a notorious perfectionist at fifty mentioned in her interview that she's more open to leaving mistakes and imperfections in her work , there being a more "human" impressionistic element emerging in her work, which would coincide nicely with Se development. (http://undertheivybook.blogspot.fi/) One other aspect was being able to actually live outside one's work, enjoying living in the moment more, not just being the errand boy for art. Being a human too, a human who does art, not art that does human...

 

[jupiterswoon]

Yes, I think we should totally create that thread, it'd be interesting to see if INFJs have common grounds for creating art work, or similar styles or ideas. Let's do it.

 

[Untitled]

Yes, I think we should totally create that thread, it'd be interesting to see if INFJs have common grounds for creating art work, or similar styles or ideas. Let's do it.

I think that's a great idea. Would you be willing to start it?

 

[z523x4gr98j]

I feel the real stresses that the "mystery INFJ" who's comments sparked this thread has faced may indicate a real problem that many in the creative professions have to face at one poit of another concerning the harsh reality of the fact of how "the system works" may not be entirely INFJ friendly.

That's what I think a huge flaw in the idea is: the Se activity (art) itself is not problematic for INFJs, but using it in a fast-paced environment where we're expected to keep up with Se-dom types. I can see how being expected to keep up with the Se pastry chefs would be unhealthy for her, but that's completely different from her making pastries as a personal hobby.

Many of my favorite artists that I think are INFJ tend to become famous first, disillusioned next and retire from the limelight to beaver away just creating for the sake of creation almost (Like Trent Reznor and Kate Bush...Prince...etc). Some take a break and do something else (Leonard Cohen went to a monastery, Kate Bush became a housewife with a penchant for gardening.) Sometimes they emerge with a very different, more autonomous, less dependent of the outside world, way of working bringing these artistic visions to life. Kate Bush who is a notorious perfectionist at fifty mentioned in her interview that she's more open to leaving mistakes and imperfections in her work , there being a more "human" impressionistic element emerging in her work, which would coincide nicely with Se development. (http://undertheivybook.blogspot.fi/)

Very interesting observations... Don't have much to add at the moment, but I'll be mulling that over in my mind for a while.

One other aspect was being able to actually live outside one's work, enjoying living in the moment more, not just being the errand boy for art. Being a human too, a human who does art, not art that does human...

Heh, I like how you put it that way.

 

[jupiterswoon]

Yes, I can upload some of my stuff, probably tomorrow. I think it'd be great

 

[Untitled]

Yes, I can upload some of my stuff, probably tomorrow. I think it'd be great

Great. I think it would be great if we could make it open in a way where you could also just discuss the work. I personally find it a bit challenging to upload my work because it would also mean I'd "out myself" because it would be so easy for any stranger to just google my bands and get my name and my close friends' and associates' names and I'm not really up for that on a public forum (I'm just a regular run of the mill "working class" musician and not anyone famous, but the public side is something that comes with it too and I've shared some personal info here I would like to keep private that I would have kept to myself otherwise.)

 

[Untitled]

That's what I think a huge flaw in the idea is: the Se activity (art) itself is not problematic for INFJs, but using it in a fast-paced environment where we're expected to keep up with Se-dom types. I can see how being expected to keep up with the Se pastry chefs would be unhealthy for her, but that's completely different from her making pastries as a personal hobby.

For a long time, I've sensed that it would be unhealthy for me to be an artist as a career rather than a personal endeavor. I gave into the social pressure to find a career niche right out of high school and go to college, where I majored in graphic design (because the college didn't offer a studio art or illustration major), but throughout college the feeling that I would hate a career in graphic design only increased. I would rather have an unimpressive entry level job and have enough personal time to create art, than have a time-consuming career with stressful deadlines and no chance to create art for myself. But I felt like people would think me a slacker if I expressed this.

Now, I'm thinking the ideal balance would be to do freelance work in addition to a steady job. That way I wouldn't have to take on creative work to support myself; I could only take on work I wanted, and keep myself from getting burnt out. (And my degree wouldn't be an entire waste. )

I think it's maybe less about art not being good full time, more so from personal experience, and maybe echoing your post, I'd say it's more about having the chance to keep your integrity in terms of your artistic vision. My problem in some more democratic collaborations is that I feel "the vision" is bastardized almost. That's really what I hate. As a songwriter I'm comfortable with letting people express themselves without giving more instruction than the mood or concept when it comes to their own instruments if they are good enough musicians, however the overall idea and the key components that keep the concept intact I'm not happily willing to budge on. If I'm forced to do that I actually feel physically sick. It's that awful to me. If I'm allowed the trust and freedom to actually have that kind of an "editorial", "producerly" or "directorial" role, without being hassled I flourish. It's where I think I'm strongest at, being able to keep a whole concept intact and coming up with those concepts. If I'm working in an environment where I'm not trusted, or have to dance by someone else's tune I can't stand it.
Those who manage to become accomplished in their field, once they've become kind of generally recognized as successful, have a chance to do what they want creatively without ridicule, but many have undergone a lot of scepticism and opposition to get there.
For some like me, who working in a more underground genre, and with my skillset, I'd either have to a) tour constantly or b) make ends meet otherwise and do what the heck I please. ;D I'm leaning towards option b).

I'd still say Se doesn't in my mind signify the function of "art" though. INFPs are often associated with artistic ability and they don't have Se in their make up at all. ESTPs not so much (though there definitely are ESTP musicans, met many) though they are Se-dom. I have to agree with a previous post in that I think it just says HOW we're being artists. I know many ENFP musicians...well from every type, really. ;D

 

[Lerxst]

Without any kind of Ni function, even an Se artistic endeavor would resemble a paint-by-numbers project. Where are they getting their "vision" from?

Without any kind of Se function an Ni's project would resemble a much rougher version of the Vitruvian Man with a lot more lines and eraser marks since we'd always be trying to figure out what works best.

I'm skeptical of anyone who "studies" MBTI; it's too easy to lose yourself in the narrow margin of your own label.

 

[ENT8]

My immediate reaction was the same as all of yours, but I guess I needed affirmation because her ideas preyed on my fears. I know that Se often has the negative effect on me that she describes, but I feel like it's different with my art. When I tried to explain this, she more or less said, "You may feel like it's different, but it's not. It's just your evil Se being a sneaky puppet master and letting your Ni think it's in control when it's not."

This was my response to her comment:



Her response:



I appreciate that she avoids outright telling me that it's bad for me to create art. But I can tell she quietly believes I'll end up becoming disillusioned with it like she was, and that I need to experience it for myself before I will believe her.

That's why I decided not to continue the discussion. She seemed unchanged even after I tried to offer up alternate approaches to art that might better fit her framework. So I figured it was pointless to keep pressing the issue.

I find it kind of sad that she psychologized something she once had a passion for to the point where it became demystified. I don't mean that in a snarky way; it really does make me kind of sad, and wish that she had been able to find a healthier way to continue with her art. She seems to think that the fact that the "magic" of the process can be explained in psychological terms, means it's not "authentic" for INFJs. It could just as easily be explained in psychological terms for Se artists, yet she doesn't think they should give up art because of it.

Another article on the site, The Inferior Function: Traps, Temptations, and Grip Experiences, discusses the same theory about the inferior function, but with a key difference.



The key difference is that "directly beautifying the material world" (creating art) is not said to be bad for INJs, in itself. It's only bad when the INJ does so believing that it will bring them wholeness.

BIG difference!

When I came across the article today, it made everything much clearer to me. Because that's exactly how I act when I'm under stress and the inferior Se comes out. I start wanting to go on clothes shopping sprees (acquire wealth), and I can spend way too much time putting together outfits to wear because I want them to look just so (trying to beautify the physical world). THIS is how my inferior Se manifests; NOT when creating art.

In fact, the more Se manifests in this superficial way, the LESS art I create. I go into a creative slump, and I do all these frivolous, materialistic things, all the while hating myself for it and wishing I were being more productive.

So for me, the creative process is markedly different from my "grip experiences" with Se. In fact, the two are mutually exclusive.

This sounds just like a case of over extrapolation and theoretical irrelevence.

you know the nobel prize in medicine in 1949 was actually bestowed upon Dr. Moniz, for his "discovery of thereputic value and medical use" of the lobotomy. you know, the operation that cuts off the front of your brain from working.

don't put too much stock in theories that are very obviously and fundamentally misguided. I'm not saying there isn't ANY possible validity to what shes's ascertaining... though I tend to doubt it.

the MBTI and Jung's early work were NEVER intended to act as a "guideline" to follow for personal emotional and psychological development.

and to see it being used as such, particularly when the application can indeed be damaging to very important AND very valid points of view... that's just fucking rediculous.

wow. i'm betting homegirl could use a bit of tempering with that over zealous N of hers... (or maybe she's the sensing type that is trying to "fake it till she makes it".) man. i'm gonna stop now, because i'll just get overly inappropriate from this point on. But I DARE anyone to actually try to test or prove or otherwise validate ANYTHING like this "belief" with any form of controlled, standardized scientific or statsitically valid scruitney.

ok. nothing coming up more than unbelieveably dehumanizing thoughts towards this idea and it's spewers.

i'm done.

your good seraphim. just tell them to go fuck themselves.

E

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

Dont buy into MBTI too deeply, at its core its not even a real science, its severely subjective.

The implication of this statement is that the opinions of random ppl on the internet is what MBTI is.

 

[Billy]

The implication of this statement is that the opinions of random ppl on the internet is what MBTI is.

Its not?

 

[sassafras]

The implication of this statement is that the opinions of random ppl on the internet is what MBTI is.

Isn't that really how it works in the first place?