Transcendentalism

lightning23

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How do you guys feel about transcendentalism. I've been rereading a lot of Emerson and Thoreau for class. Not everything they argue is always practical, but I feel like transcendentalist kind of have the right idea about a lot of things, and I wondered if having an INFJ personality type correlated with transcendental following.
 
Since you've been reading about it, care to give the lazy but curious folks a Coles Notes version of what this means? I'm trying to avoid tripping and falling into the Wikipedia blackhole tonight.
 
I feel like transcendentalism is very similar to eastern philosophy. Thoreau was definitely an INFJ; simply because the core beliefs are very idealized preference for human nature and society at large. He may have been the very first self help guru in the 1800's. The ideas of man being self reliant and evolving to better himself is pretty much what is going on now; but i imagine it was a radical perspective in the 1800's in a new nation. Still perhaps he carved out the very first INFJ perspective at the time. The thing i liked most about Thoreau ( i had written few essays on him in college and his writing) was that he made the human man/woman the center of society instead of a large government or ruling parties. He knew that the health of any nation dependent on the quality of individuals.

Personally i think lot of his writings were also very spiritual in nature and appealed to me during a period where i was going around studying philosophy and different organized religions to see how i felt about them all. His core beliefs were very similar to the idea that man/woman's intrinsic soul nature was good and losing touch with one's soul essence corrupts the natural unfolding of a soul's growth in the person. Still a lot of his writing resonate on a deep level with me when I start to question my own beliefs about human nature. He was way ahead of his time.
 
I watched the movie 'Grizzly Man' tonight and thought of this thread…

There's a moment in the film where Herzog says that the difference between himself and Timothy Treadwell is that Treadwell looked at the grizzly bears that he was living with and saw harmony (cosmic harmony, God's love, whatever), while Herzog saw only 'hostility, chaos and murder'.

Part of me thinks that any degree of true self-sufficiency/independence from society is probably going to have to account for the possibility that nature is indifferent or even hates you for your weakness, but at the same time I think maybe Herzog was in some ways envious of something that he couldn't/didn't want to deny the existence of… but then, Herzog wasn't eaten by a grizzly, and probably never will be.

I do think it's easier to remain ignorant of the true character of the universe while you're protected by the safety nets (or oppressions, depending on where you live) of society… and that society itself can distort your perceptions of things like good and evil, and completely change the questions AND the answers… so we're all basically blinded by its light to the extent where it's kind of hard to say whether or not the true character of nature is something from which you need to protect yourself (via society and comfort), or with which you can peacefully co-exist.

I suppose transcendentalism doesn't necessarily involve rejecting the advantages of society outright (you can still use the knowledge and the technologies, right?) and it's possible to become self-sufficient enough to protect yourself apart from society's influence.

I would agree that until you actually face nature-- really face it, not just take a tour where you're still on unequal ground with the rest of the animals… then you really can't say for sure how you fit, if you fit, or whether nature or the universe or whatever is good or bad. And even then, your experience of it definitely isn't absolute and experiencing nature doesn't always mean that you're going to achieve a balance with nature, or even understand it.

'Goodness' goes beyond your own fears and your own life, though… there's nothing particularly 'bad' about being mauled by a grizzly or eaten by wolves. It's bad for you, but it's probably good for them, because even though you're dead, they're not going to starve…

I think that truly getting into that mindset would be something that required a lot of humility, and a completely different outlook on life, death, violence… basically everything. In order to really understand it, nature would probably have to become like your God… where you had absolute faith that everything that happened did so because it was necessary, and just, and good… no matter how horrifying it seems.
 
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I watched the movie 'Grizzly Man' tonight and thought of this thread…

There's a moment in the film where Herzog says that the difference between himself and Timothy Treadwell is that Treadwell looked at the grizzly bears that he was living with and saw harmony (cosmic harmony, God's love, whatever), while Herzog saw only 'hostility, chaos and murder'.

Part of me thinks that any degree of true self-sufficiency/independence from society is probably going to have to account for the possibility that nature is indifferent or even hates you for your weakness, but at the same time I think maybe Herzog was in some ways envious of something that he couldn't/didn't want to deny the existence of… but then, Herzog wasn't eaten by a grizzly, and probably never will be.

I do think it's easier to remain ignorant of the true character of the universe while you're protected by the safety nets (or oppressions, depending on where you live) of society… and that society itself can distort your perceptions of things like good and evil, and completely change the questions AND the answers… so we're all basically blinded by its light to the extent where it's kind of hard to say whether or not the true character of nature is something from which you need to protect yourself (via society and comfort), or with which you can peacefully co-exist.

I suppose transcendentalism doesn't necessarily involve rejecting the advantages of society outright (you can still use the knowledge and the technologies, right?) and it's possible to become self-sufficient enough to protect yourself apart from society's influence.

I would agree that until you actually face nature-- really face it, not just take a tour where you're still on unequal ground with the rest of the animals… then you really can't say for sure how you fit, if you fit, or whether nature or the universe or whatever is good or bad. And even then, your experience of it definitely isn't absolute and experiencing nature doesn't always mean that you're going to achieve a balance with nature, or even understand it.

'Goodness' goes beyond your own fears and your own life, though… there's nothing particularly 'bad' about being mauled by a grizzly or eaten by wolves. It's bad for you, but it's probably good for them, because even though you're dead, they're not going to starve…

I think that truly getting into that mindset would be something that required a lot of humility, and a completely different outlook on life, death, violence… basically everything. In order to really understand it, nature would probably have to become like your God… where you had absolute faith that everything that happened did so because it was necessary, and just, and good… no matter how horrifying it seems.

The reality of nature is that there are predators and prey, but humans are capable of rational thought so this changes the game for them

The existence of psychopaths who are predatory and parasitical to humanity is now common knowledge and science is offering ways to identify them

So once people are consciously aware of the predator in their midst and of how the predator loves to seek power and is often drawn into the corporate world and they have a way to identify the predator why should they tolerate them any longer?

Psychopaths have been able to hide easily in a world where people are divided into warring fiefdoms, city states or countries but the situation is changing now. The majority of humanity is communicating more and more and are becoming a global community and the divisive manipulations of the psychopath will become more transparent.

Further to that there is more criticism of capitalism as a system and capitalism has always enabled psychopaths to hide in it, so the removal of capitalism and the creation of a society controlled by the people and not by psychopaths will leave them less places to hide

Of course the psychopaths know this and they know their only hope now lies in trying to dominate the emerging global community; but the people are more and more conscious of this and the question is: will they allow it?

So in a wider cosmological sense the extinction of the psychopath could be seen as neither 'good' nor 'bad' but simply part of mankinds evolution.
 
So wait-- are you trying to tell me that the world is being run by a small group of psychopathic elites who care for nothing but power and greed, and plan on causing some sort of global crisis in order to enslave the hearts and minds of all humans?

Please, tell me more-- preferably with youtube videos featuring montages and sinister-sounding music.
 
So wait-- are you trying to tell me that the world is being run by a small group of psychopathic elites who care for nothing but power and greed, and plan on causing some sort of global crisis in order to enslave the hearts and minds of all humans?

Please, tell me more-- preferably with youtube videos featuring montages and sinister-sounding music.

You can defend yourself with cynicism, but it's true. It's pretty obvious, all you have to do is open your eyes.
 
I'll just add that, do you think weapon selling corporates, corporates who control the meat industry, cigarette corporates, wouldn't happily wash your brain if they had the chance? Oh wait
 
When I was in junior high, we studied transcendentalist works.
I remember my little heart singing silently within myself in class, thinking, "Somebody else feels like that, too?"
You've inspired me to go back and read Nature and Walden again..

Imagine being as wild and free as that legend of John Muir, climbing a tree in Yosemite park during a thunderstorm because he wanted to feel what the trees felt:

"A few minutes ago every tree was excited, bowing to the roaring storm, waving, swirling, tossing their branches in glorious enthusiasm like worship. But though to the outer ear these trees are now silent, their songs never cease. Every hidden cell is throbbing with music and life, every fiber thrilling like harp strings, while incense is ever flowing from the balsam bells and leaves. No wonder the hills and groves were God's first temples, and the more they are cut down and hewn into cathedrals and churches, the farther off and dimmer seems the Lord himself.” --John Muir


 
The reality of nature is that there are predators and prey, but humans are capable of rational thought so this changes the game for them

The existence of psychopaths who are predatory and parasitical to humanity is now common knowledge and science is offering ways to identify them

So once people are consciously aware of the predator in their midst and of how the predator loves to seek power and is often drawn into the corporate world and they have a way to identify the predator why should they tolerate them any longer?

Psychopaths have been able to hide easily in a world where people are divided into warring fiefdoms, city states or countries but the situation is changing now. The majority of humanity is communicating more and more and are becoming a global community and the divisive manipulations of the psychopath will become more transparent.

Further to that there is more criticism of capitalism as a system and capitalism has always enabled psychopaths to hide in it, so the removal of capitalism and the creation of a society controlled by the people and not by psychopaths will leave them less places to hide

Of course the psychopaths know this and they know their only hope now lies in trying to dominate the emerging global community; but the people are more and more conscious of this and the question is: will they allow it?

So in a wider cosmological sense the extinction of the psychopath could be seen as neither 'good' nor 'bad' but simply part of mankinds evolution.

I skipped right past the first four lines or so because I just wanted to see if you'd take off from transcendentalism and go on a tangent about the Chrislamofascist Freeluminati World Order cabal, and I practically giggled with delight when I found I was right.

You're so predictable, muir, I love it.
 
You can defend yourself with cynicism, but it's true. It's pretty obvious, all you have to do is open your eyes.

It's not so much that I don't agree (well, I don't completely agree), it's more like I just wish we could have one thread that didn't involve conspiracies and plots to take over the world. It seems like [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] has a habit of taking every single topic and steering it in that direction until finally it's a series of unbearably epic posts that nobody knows how to respond to.

I like muir and I think he's really sharp and it's admirable how passionate he is about this stuff, but there are plenty of threads about that already and it would be kind of nice to have one thread that doesn't end up being about corporations and elites and conspiracies.
 
"A few minutes ago every tree was excited, bowing to the roaring storm, waving, swirling, tossing their branches in glorious enthusiasm like worship. But though to the outer ear these trees are now silent, their songs never cease. Every hidden cell is throbbing with music and life, every fiber thrilling like harp strings, while incense is ever flowing from the balsam bells and leaves. No wonder the hills and groves were God's first temples, and the more they are cut down and hewn into cathedrals and churches, the farther off and dimmer seems the Lord himself.” --John Muir


That's a really awesome quote.

I think it's a pretty common yearning for people to want to give up what they're doing and retreat into nature-- very few people actually do it, though.
 
It's not so much that I don't agree (well, I don't completely agree), it's more like I just wish we could have one thread that didn't involve conspiracies and plots to take over the world. It seems like [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] has a habit of taking every single topic and steering it in that direction until finally it's a series of unbearably epic posts that nobody knows how to respond to.

I like muir and I think he's really sharp and it's admirable how passionate he is about this stuff, but there are plenty of threads about that already and it would be kind of nice to have one thread that doesn't end up being about corporations and elites and conspiracies.

Seems legit. [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]? :-)
 
I skipped right past the first four lines or so because I just wanted to see if you'd take off from transcendentalism and go on a tangent about the Chrislamofascist Freeluminati World Order cabal, and I practically giggled with delight when I found I was right.

You're so predictable, muir, I love it.

That's good man, laughter is really important

What they want to do is pull people down into a negative vibe which is why they fill the news with negativity. This puts us in a difficult position when trying to face up to what is going on in that we must acknowledge all sorts of horrible things but at the same time we mustn't let them destroy our hope

Concerning predictablity it works both ways...i also know how you think. What you won't predict is how i'm going to illustrate my point next

Despite the best efforts of the cabal to make people as cynical as them the reality remains that most people are basically decent and are just going about their day with no real desire to do harm to others

There is an area of psychology called 'terror management theory' which looks at how people respond when faced with the reality of death. Scientists have found that people act a lot more conservatively when they are reminded of their own mortality

This is not new knowledge to magicians who have known this for millenia. In fact they have often included skulls as emblems in paintings and on tombs stones as 'memento mori' to remind people of their mortality

So for example if you are a politician and you want to be re-elected you can just manufacture a public scare like an act of terrorism eg an anthrax scare and it will have a psychological affect on the voters who are more likely to want to keep the status quo ('better the devil you know')

In Scotland the old graveyards are full of freemasonic graves with timeglasses on and skulls:

SkullL.webp

People in advertising have known about this aspect of human psychology because they have magicians working for them. Here is a whisky advert that has a subliminal skull in the ice cube:

TMTskull.gif


Whiskey being a substance that people use to keep their fear of dying in their subconscious. The theory behind TMT is that as pulitzer prize winner Ernst Becker said: All human action is taken to ignore or avoid the anxiety generated by the inevitability of death.


So our leaders can often keep us complient to them by creating bogey-men. For example at the moment the cabal is making a bogey-man out of islam, but other times they also declare 'war' on: 'drugs', 'terror' or 'cyberwarfare', viruses and before all that there was the 'red scare'

People will even go off and fight people who aren't a threat to their country because they are carrying out a subconscious urge to destroy something they perceive as a threat to their life (because their government has told them it is a threat even if it wasn't eg saying Iraq had 'weapons of mass destruction' or that saddam was behind 911!)

Its only because most people are just going about their day and not really paying attention to all this psychology stuff that the cabal are able to manipulate them so easily. But that's the great thing about the internet....people are becoming aware of how they are being manipulated

Perception is everything

Our society is very hierarchichal and is full of organisations that all have their hierarchies. People are taught not to question those above them in the hierarchy as there are often penalties to do so. So if i'm above you in a hierarchy and i tell you that there is an imminent threat and that you must carry out a certain act to avoid that threat, you are likely to then do that. But there might not actually be a threat, i might just be telling you there is one to get you to do something that i want to get done. So to achieve that end i implant the perception in your mind that there is a threat

That perception then affects your behaviour.....so whoever controls perception controls behaviour

The opportunity that we now have with the internet is that we can find information outside of the usual channels and outside of hierarchies and we can then determine our own perceptions and our own behaviour

So there is really only one 'war' and that is the war of perception...everything else flows from that, which is why i pretty much always talk about this stuff....because i understand that it is all about perception

All an individual needs to do is ask themself how sure they are that their current perception is the truth or the whole story. When new information comes in that challenges how sure they are about their perception then it can get them questioning their perception. If they can allow themself to see more of the picture (and many struggle with that because they have a lot invested in their current perception of reality) then they have an opportunity to free their mind from the perceptions that others have planted there and then they can really become their own master not the plaything of superiors in a hierarchy
 
So wait-- are you trying to tell me that the world is being run by a small group of psychopathic elites who care for nothing but power and greed, and plan on causing some sort of global crisis in order to enslave the hearts and minds of all humans?

Please, tell me more-- preferably with youtube videos featuring montages and sinister-sounding music.

In my perception that shows you are now at the knowing stage....next is the understanding stage

Concerning how it ties into your post you were talking about 'nature' and about a mindset that transcends 'good' or 'bad' or ideas of morality

So i posted something relating to nature (predator and prey) and i talked about a mindset beyond morality (psychopathy).

I used a real world example to illustrate my point because you talked about 'facing nature' and in my opinion for humans (who don't really rub shoulders with bears all that often) the nature that we must face is the predators that we do rub shoulders with (psychopaths)

We have seen the post modern break down of christian morality and the question is what must society have to keep people from complete nihilism? For the psychopath there really is no reason not to lie, murder and steal
 
It's not so much that I don't agree (well, I don't completely agree), it's more like I just wish we could have one thread that didn't involve conspiracies and plots to take over the world. It seems like @muir has a habit of taking every single topic and steering it in that direction until finally it's a series of unbearably epic posts that nobody knows how to respond to.

I like muir and I think he's really sharp and it's admirable how passionate he is about this stuff, but there are plenty of threads about that already and it would be kind of nice to have one thread that doesn't end up being about corporations and elites and conspiracies.

It works on a different level though....i'm just open and honest about the level i'm working on

There is a tug of war going on in the public consciousness; as you put it over the 'hearts and minds' of the public (do you have tug of wars in your part of the world...do you know what i mean? When two teams of people pull on a rope in different directions trying to pull the other team over to their side)

On one side is a group of people who are saying that humans are innately selfish. These people obviously get lots of funding from wealthy patrons who want to have an intellectual justification for their ruthless behaviour. They want to cynically believe that in fact everyone is as selfish as them and that the only reason they have pots of cash and others don't is because they are so so clever and everyone else must be an idiot

This is of course not true and besides there are many types of intelligence and many different virtues besides intelligence

So all these ideologies (and we've debated a bit about capitalism) need a philosophical justification; heck even the playground bully needs a justification for example they will say 'what are you looking at' even if the person isn't lookin at them to then justify pushing them. They probably won't just come up and push someone. People behind ideologies need justifications for what they do otherwise they risk having people see through what they are doing and objecting to it

So for example the behaviouralists wanted everyone to believe that humans were innately selfish but they were challenged by Noam Chomsky who overturned their theory

Each party represented different sides in the struggle. One side wants a fairer society and one side wants an unequal society where a few have most of everything. Each side must justify their position and the debates often trace back to human nature

Each side also knows that they need the support of the public so they must pursuade the public that their viewpoint is correct; to do this they seek to shape the perception of the public. A persons perception will then determine their behaviour

For example if my perception is that only i should have all the wealth and not others then i will seek to bring about laws that will help me hoard all the wealth

So there is a perceptual struggle going on between these two opposing forces and it is even going on in this forum on conscious and unconscious levels

At the moment one of those sides is in the ascendancy...the side that believes that a few people should hold all the wealth and everyone else should do all the work is currently king of the hill. This is why we have seen mass demonstrations around the world by people saying that they are the oppressed 99% and that the 1% has taken all the wealth and is making them do all the dirty work

Many of the issues that come up on this forum spring from this struggle between these two different forces. for example someone might start a thread about work problems....the work problems are probably due to the hierarchical system existing in that work place. The hierarchical system is of course the creation of the side who believe that they should have all the wealth and the others should do all the work.

The problem with those systems is that life is only good for the people at the top of the hierarchy ('shit always rolls down hill')

So when i then start talking about conspiracys in that thread it is because i know that the problem the person is talking about is actually the result of the other side in the struggle currently holding supremacy

I believe that the polarity can only change when enough people become conscious of all this which is why i talk all this stuff out. Its a process of bringing unconscious things into the conscious so that people are then better able to make decisions for themselves and not be manipulated unconsciously

I am also myself going through the process of understanding this stuff

So concerning what you should do about my 'wall of text posts'.....what i would ideally like to happen is that you read them, make sense of them and then start spreading the ideas around the internet because by doing so you then take up the rope on my side in the perceptual struggle as we pull in the tug of war (a war over the perception of the public who alone can change things, but only when working together in large enough numbers)

This isn't however an ideal world so i accept that you might not do that....you might argue with me, or ignore me or insult and ridicule me....but even if you do that there is still a seed planted. But a seed can only grow if the person allows it to grow and that requires a moving from the knowing stage of perception to the truely understanding stage because to truely understand must by the nature of the process require action (behaviour change)
 
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That's a really awesome quote.

I think it's a pretty common yearning for people to want to give up what they're doing and retreat into nature-- very few people actually do it, though.


Arrgghh! I'm too late, the thread's already been lost! :D

Back on topic again... I read (and still read) transcendentalist works when I was in college and still have a hard-cover collection on my bookshelf.
 
One aspect of Transcendentalism that registers with me is the 'subjectivness' of the more mystical descriptions of nature. Subjectivity is a integral to introverted intuitives. Whenever a philosophical position becomes too objective I tend to lose interest.
 
I'd certainly say that each and every person can experience self-transcendence, especially if theyre spiritually inclined, or tend towards spiritualism, the occult and mysticism. I'd say that a good portion of INFJ experience such a change in their lives, myself included. Generally it comes in stages, and the end result is being who they always intended on being. But these things can be taken to extremes sometimes, just an opinion. :)
 
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