Should we go to war with Russia to save the economy? | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Should we go to war with Russia to save the economy?

I'm sure there are other "reasons" people want to go to war in Russia and feel free to discuss them, but the fact remains that world war 2 definitely helped recover the economy. Can a war with Russia fix this COVID economy bubble we created and should we do it? I don't think we have a choice anyway (hope I'm wrong!) So how excited are you to go to war
Sounds like a 'wind-up' question. But I'll give it a shot...War is super costly in human and financial terms. The only justification for war is self-defence against an aggressor nation. Most wars are not that, they are motivated by greed. There is a widespread myth that WW2 was the "good war" when in fact it was anything but. It was mostly empires clashing. Hitler said he did opebly what the West does secretly, and he was right on that. The only reason the western nations benefitted for the 30 years after WW2 was because of democratic pluralism. Class compromises were inevtiable to be able to successfully fight a big war and reconstruct after it. Democratic pluralism was the best system that has ever existed. The reason it decayed and changed almost completely to what we have today (technocratic neoliberalism) with increasing inequality alongside massive wealth, is that the managerial overclass deconstructed democratic pluralism in a revolution from above, stealing true democray from a majority of the population and leaving a greatly divided and unfair society. Things like Brexit and Trump are part of the counter-revolution from below, and while the anger of working class people is largely justified, these populist demagogues can't provide the answer, which is a return to democratic pluralism.
 
Some would argue the recession happened because the wars ended and stopped artificially pumping parts of the market
Your logic smacks of Te. Are you an INFJ? War is always costly, not profitable overall. Yes some people (the rich) make good money off it, but at the cost of ordinary lives and the finance of survivors. It is always a negative cost. Next you'll be saying the City of London creates a lot of wealth.
 
It's totally messed up thinking.
"War, what is the good of war, absolutely nothing (I'll say it again)"
I think that WW2 did stimulate technical innovation and sociological change in a way that eventually benefitted a lot of people in certain parts of the world after the war was over, but maybe not for a long time after. In the UK for example I doubt we would have had the welfare state introduced in the same way if the war hadn’t happened. That isn’t a justification for war though because it’s outcome and effects are unpredictable and the costs in suffering, death and resources are enormous.

I don’t think WW2 was simply a fight between rival empires like WW1 was, but between rival ideologies. It only takes one aggressor to start a war - when you are dealing with an evil genius madman like Hitler there are limited choices for avoiding conflict. The alternative is to side with Voldemort. I can’t see any way that contesting Hitler could be justified on the basis that it was good for the economy though. It crippled the UK for more than a decade afterwards before things came better for us.

War with Russia these days could not be the same. The risk of nuclear escalation is too great and the outcome of such a global conflict could easily set us back to the Dark Ages.
 
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I think that WW2 did stimulate technical innovation and sociological change in a way that eventually benefitted a lot of people in certain parts of the world after the war was over, but maybe not for a long time after. In the UK for example I doubt we would have had the welfare state introduced in the same way if the war hadn’t happened. That isn’t a justification for war though because it’s outcome and effects are unpredictable and the costs in suffering, death and resources are enormous.

I don’t think WW2 was simply a fight between rival empires like WW1 was, but between rival ideologies. It only takes one aggressor to start a war - when you are dealing with an evil genius madman like Hitler there are limited choices for avoiding conflict. The alternative is to side with Voldemort. I can’t see any way that contesting Hitler could be justified on the basis that it was good for the economy though. It crippled the UK for more than a decade afterwards before things came better for us.

War with Russia these days could not be the same. The risk of nuclear escalation is too great and the outcome of such a global conflict could easily set us back to the Dark Ages.

Sure, if you put a ton of money into anything technical, you will probably make advances but obviously this doesn’t justify war as the money could have been spent on something as or more useful.
Your point about the NHS. This was all part of rebuilding after war and the class compromises which war effort brought. As in New Deal is USA, there was lots of talk about making a better society, especially reducing poverty. This worked pretty well for about 30 years until Democratic pluralism started to be undone by the managerial elites, and replaced with technocratic neoliberalism. I don’t think from this you can argue war was good because of NHS or any system brought in as a result. What it does show, though, is that Democratic pluralism is the best system because it was adopted across the west at a time of great crisis. I have previously put this down as an argument for socialism but that’s too simplistic. Both capitalism and socialism have flaws, the best thing is compromise of a mixed economy. But it’s funny how right wing capitalist advocates claim such superiority over socialism when many socialist principles have saved our countries and even been great for prosperity.

As regards Hitler, an ex US president once said that although Hitler and Germany were defeated, Hitler’s ideology lived on in the US foreign policy. (Not word for word but something like that). Hitler was different in killing Jews etc., but there have been other holocausts. USA has been guilty of killing many people in foreign lands, all for money and power but money principally (what good is power with no money). I can also quote Gen Smedley D Butler who wrote the anti war classic “war is for profit” as he’d seen it at first hand how wars are usually about money at the cost of many lives.

It should also be remembered that Hitler’s rearmament after WW1 was largely funded by western money loans. So the problem was fuelled by western elites and then the cost was largely borne on ordinary working people via their lives and/or hard work for many years. Only the rich benefit from wars.

When it comes to Russia, I think it is a tyrannical country with an ENTJ in charge, massive state corruption and poverty. Like many Middle Eastern countries, they need to be stood up to. The best solution is an uprising in the people in these tyrannical countries which has been happening here and there.
 
Your logic smacks of Te. Are you an INFJ? War is always costly, not profitable overall. Yes some people (the rich) make good money off it, but at the cost of ordinary lives and the finance of survivors. It is always a negative cost. Next you'll be saying the City of London creates a lot of wealth.
Yeah I'm an infj.

Anyway, most of this thread was tongue in cheek to get conversation going. I don't think it will ever be possible to have a world without war and conflict so it's best to be realistic about what might happen as opposed to what should happen. Things always should/shouldn't happen that doesn't have much influence on what actually occurs. Rarely does should/shouldn't win.
 
Yeah I'm an infj.

Anyway, most of this thread was tongue in cheek to get conversation going. I don't think it will ever be possible to have a world without war and conflict so it's best to be realistic about what might happen as opposed to what should happen. Things always should/shouldn't happen that doesn't have much influence on what actually occurs. Rarely does should/shouldn't win.

I thought as much. The trouble with seeing things as inevitable is it works against active change. People in power want their population to believe nothing can be changed unless they sanction it. Of course Sensors tend to think they way most of the time too, which helps elites as they are more common. The illusion most people are under is that wars are inevitable because people will always fight and disagree like kids in the playground, but that is not a good way of seeing things, because wars are planned and usually rely on propaganda and lies to coerce and convince a population it’s unnecessary. [It’s a bit different now we have voluntary military jobs and no conscription.] None of these are inevitabilities. As soon as someone claims as much, they are a little bit of the problem, and are doing human agency a disservice. This is why WW2 has been mythologised as the Good War and is still revered by elites for its propaganda value or they genuinely believe in it. The USA knew about killing of Jews long before they entered WW2. There were also many admirers of Hitler in the USA and there was nearly a military coup, largely avoided because Gen Smedley D Butler wouldn’t cooperate and became an anti war advocate. I’m sure their decision to enter was primarily financial and/or strategic, and not primarily a humanistic one. You only have to read some Noam Chomsky to open your eyes to how “good” the US government are, and of course Iraq showed them up big style, along with Blair etc etc. It’s also worth noting here that nazism came from the middle classes not working people, similarly to the situation in the USA. It suits elites to blame the working people, and use the fear of nazism as a way to reduce freedoms and increase state control, because it allows them to avoid taking any blame for the rigged society they oversee, and thus any action to redress the injustices.
 
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Not to derail the thread, but this is news to me. I thought you identified as INFP.
I originally tested infj and I test infj a lot. Then there was the time I thought I was an enfp. I guess we could open up another type me thread but it's very confusing to me, I usually tell people I'm infj since I test that most often. I'm definitely not intj or entj though haha
 
I thought as much. The trouble with seeing things as inevitable is it works against active change. People in power want their population to believe nothing can be changed unless they sanction it. Of course Sensors tend to think they way most of the time too, which helps elites as they are more common. The illusion most people are under is that wars are inevitable because people will always fight and disagree like kids in the playground, but that is not a good way of seeing things, because wars are planned and usually rely on propaganda and lies to coerce and convince a population it’s unnecessary. [It’s a bit different now we have voluntary military jobs and no conscription.] None of these are inevitabilities. As soon as someone claims as much, they are a little bit of the problem, and are doing human agency a disservice. This is why WW2 has been mythologised as the Good War and is still revered by elites for its propaganda value or they genuinely believe in it. The USA knew about killing of Jews long before they entered WW2. There were also many admirers of Hitler in the USA and there was nearly a military coup, largely avoided because Gen Smedley D Butler wouldn’t cooperate and became an anti war advocate. I’m sure their decision to enter was primarily financial and/or strategic, and not primarily a humanistic one. You only have to read some Noam Chomsky to open your eyes to how “good” the US government are, and of course Iraq showed them up big style, along with Blair etc etc. It’s also worth noting here that nazism came from the middle classes not working people, similarly to the situation in the USA. It suits elites to blame the working people, and use the fear of nazism as a way to reduce freedoms and increase state control, because it allows them to avoid taking any blame for the rigged society they oversee, and thus any action to redress the injustices.
I think there is a place for visionaries to pave a path to a potential utopia world- it was people like that who got unions, pass safety laws, etc. They have a function in society. Believing that we will actually be able to obtain a utopia is a different story, but if they didn't believe it was possible, they wouldn't push so hard and change wouldn't happen. Still I don't believe the ideals will ever fully be realized.
 
I think there is a place for visionaries to pave a path to a potential utopia world- it was people like that who got unions, pass safety laws, etc. They have a function in society. Believing that we will actually be able to obtain a utopia is a different story, but if they didn't believe it was possible, they wouldn't push so hard and change wouldn't happen. Still I don't believe the ideals will ever fully be realized.

Yes, advocating for change is one? of the things INFJs do best. We are the ‘tip of the spear’ because of our Fe and insightful minds. We are the visionary dreamers who want to realise our dreams if possible. But we also know that the situation cannot be changed quickly or even close to what our vision might tell us it could. This is one benefit of understanding typology because I believe that can help explain why others see things so differently and may not get enthused by, or understand, our visions. But that is no reason not to try, because if it suits us to do our best in that role, we are making a valuable contribution, hopefully with some financial rewards for our efforts. In this way we can have a fulfilling job with real benefits to us and the wider society. Although some INFJs have been prepared to make ultimate sacrifices for humanity, not everyone can or should be expected to undertake such a role. It’s clearly not fair. I think it’s also worth considering that while utopia isn’t achievable, neither is the opposite, hell, but many are moving us in that direction all the time. It’s a constant battle. You choose your side or you watch from the sidelines.
 
Anyway, most of this thread was tongue in cheek to get conversation going.
I think it’s a great idea to chase these sort of ideas around and try out / explore different views of the same issue. I’ve enjoyed contributing :)
 
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This world and its people are truly something else.

001-ben-garrison-biden-ukraine-222.jpg
 
DCD

Cheers,
Ian
 
Has there been any other system in the history of human beings? I'm just asking to point out that I don't know if humans have never *not* done this. Even if you can point out a single society, on a global level, there has never been a time in written history where there was not a war going on somewhere. What we're discussing is a utopian society that has never existed as far as we know of. And my question is: is it even possible?

Because I don't actually think it is.

Which then poses the question: if it is just in human nature to do these things and it can't be stopped, is there an actual solution?
I think some small communities have lived pretty peacefully. Haiti was like paradise until the Spanish got there. Since then it has been abused by many people especially the USA. I’m sure there have been many other examples.

I think we need to separate people having petty squabbles and state organised exploitation of the masses to suit an elite. In a true enlightened representative democracy I don’t think a conventional war would be possible because it would be in no ones interests.
We have been conditioned to think of history as unchangeable.
 
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