Why I do/don't believe in the supernatural.

[JonMac]

Most people are self-delusional in general on many things, we delude ourselves daily

Do you include yourself in that statement? Because relying only on what you can see, touch, smell, taste is to rely on the limitations of human sense organs and the processing power (or lack of it) in the human brain. To say that only those things that a human being can physically sense and process are "real" is pretty delusional, too.

 

[Billy]

Do you include yourself in that statement? Because relying only on what you can see, touch, smell, taste is to rely on the limitations of human sense organs and the processing power (or lack of it) in the human brain. To say that only those things that a human being can physically sense and process are "real" is pretty delusional, too.

When I said "we" I included myself in that. If senses and rationality are too limited, please tell me which magical sense it is that you are using to know things.

 

[Soulful]

Material from a previous thread.

 

[Billy]

Can we please get back on track with the discussion?

Billy, I suggest you create a separate thread for your queries, as I don't want this one to veer off into proof of the supernatural.

Tell that to whatshisname who asked me the question.

 

[JonMac]

When I said "we" I included myself in that. If senses and rationality are too limited, please tell me which magical sense it is that you are using to know things.

Rationality and knowing...that's the key, isn't it? The only rational, realistic, thought on that is to admit to ourselves that we really don't "know" ANYTHING. We suspect, we have theories, we believe things to be true based on our past experiences and our perceptions, but perception is only reality regarding the reality inside our own head. Even science has begun to recognize this over the past couple of decades as quantum and theoretical physics has shown that the very act of observing the results of an experiment change those results. The scientist cannot take himself out of the equation and, as long as human perception is affecting the results, you can never really "know" what the real, capital T Truth is. I quoted Lao Tzu on another thread and that quote is appropriate here, as well: "Not knowing is true knowledge. Presuming to know is a disease."

Cats only see black-and-white, due to the physical construction of their eyes, and the imaging portion of their brain. Dogs see colors, but not the same colors we see, for the same reason. So why, then, do humans believe that what THEY see *IS* the ultimate reality when, in fact, we only see what we are physically capable of seeing and sensing, just like a cat or a dog or an insect or an aardvark? Our sense organs take in billions of bits of data every second, but our brains can only process about 2,000 bits per second. I think claiming to "know" anything is more a matter of self-delusion than being able to admit that we really don't.

 

[Sloe Djinn]

Tell that to whatshisname who asked me the question.

Rationality and knowing...that's the key, isn't it?

If either of you want to continue this discussion, I'd be happy to split some of this out to another thread. The OP stated pretty clearly earlier on that this thread isn't for philosophical debate about whether or not you believe in the supernatural, so if you're just itching to continue, take it somewharz else.

 

[Billy]

Rationality and knowing...that's the key, isn't it? The only rational, realistic, thought on that is to admit to ourselves that we really don't "know" ANYTHING. We suspect, we have theories, we believe things to be true based on our past experiences and our perceptions, but perception is only reality regarding the reality inside our own head. Even science has begun to recognize this over the past couple of decades as quantum and theoretical physics has shown that the very act of observing the results of an experiment change those results. The scientist cannot take himself out of the equation and, as long as human perception is affecting the results, you can never really "know" what the real, capital T Truth is. I quoted Lao Tzu on another thread and that quote is appropriate here, as well: "Not knowing is true knowledge. Presuming to know is a disease."

Lao was wrong, most of that philosophical crap is just fortune cookie nonsense. 1+1 = 2. Observable fact, we KNOW this. Just because someone you admire says something, doesnt make it true, Lao should have differentiated between objective reality and subjective truth, he was referring to the latter.

Cats only see black-and-white, due to the physical construction of their eyes, and the imaging portion of their brain. Dogs see colors, but not the same colors we see, for the same reason. So why, then, do humans believe that what THEY see *IS* the ultimate reality when, in fact, we only see what we are physically capable of seeing and sensing, just like a cat or a dog or an insect or an aardvark? Our sense organs take in billions of bits of data every second, but our brains can only process about 2,000 bits per second. I think claiming to "know" anything is more a matter of self-delusion than being able to admit that we really don't.

Wrong, and irrelevant. I KNOW some things, I subjectively understand others.

 

[Billy]

If either of you want to continue this discussion, I'd be happy to split some of this out to another thread. The OP stated pretty clearly earlier on that this thread isn't for philosophical debate about whether or not you believe in the supernatural, so if you're just itching to continue, take it somewharz else.

Looks like youre going to have to.

 

[JonMac]

If either of you want to continue this discussion, I'd be happy to split some of this out to another thread. The OP stated pretty clearly earlier on that this thread isn't for philosophical debate about whether or not you believe in the supernatural, so if you're just itching to continue, take it somewharz else.

There is no need...when someone believes only his own views to be worthwhile, while all others are "wrong," simply because he says so, there is no possibility of rational conversation.

 

[barbad0s]

I think you guys just have totally different pov/worldviews that can't be inter-argued lol

 

[Stu]

I want to believe in the supernatural, but generally do not. I think delusion is one of the easiest states of mind to attain. So in the moment, day to day I am highly skeptical. But in the long term, I think I am more a "Super-Naturalist" then a "Naturalist" I tend to believe that consciousness calls matter into existence rather than the other way around.

Still.....I am more inclined to dismiss supernatural events than to seek them. I think that is what I like the most about Zen, the masters are constantly urging the students to disregard supernatural experiences as distractions to perceiving ultimate reality.

 

[hk427f3]

To say that only those things that a human being can physically sense and process are "real" is pretty delusional, too.

You can't make any conclusions based on what we don't know about.

To say 'There are things humans can't know, so ghosts do exist!' (or whatever) is highly illogical.

 

[Billy]

There is no need...when someone believes only his own views to be worthwhile, while all others are "wrong," simply because he says so, there is no possibility of rational conversation.

Youre the one saying we dont or cant know anything, this is clearly not true and kind of oxymoronic to say to boot with any level of certainty, which I am sure has escaped you. It did sound cool when Lao said it, but yeah ya know.. he lived during a time period when we didnt have like science and shit.

 

[Rcs6r]

Well, if it exists the it must be just natural then, right?

 

[muir]

I think this reality is mirrored by another dimension. If you can influence that dimension then you can manifest things into this reality

I think a lot of 'sightings' are the product of the unconscious mind; 'as above so below'

As [MENTION=1939]Stu[/MENTION] said...I think a lot of these things are distractions. They make the seeker look outwards instead of looking inwards. This external stuff is pushed on us the whole time in popular culture and there is a reason for that: they want us distracted and not looking within for our truths

 

[JonMac]

You can't make any conclusions based on what we don't know about.

To say 'There are things humans can't know, so ghosts do exist!' (or whatever) is highly illogical.

I said no such thing...I said that I am able to admit that I don't know and that claiming you do know...one way or the other...is the height of intellectual hubris.

 

[knight in battle]

I think you guys just have totally different pov/worldviews that can't be inter-argued lol

Do they have incompatible cognitive processes?

I think they are actually going to converge somewhere and arrive at some common ground. This is evidenced by their willingness to offer reasoning as opposed to a mere shouting match.