Why do gay men hate me?

[MoonFlier]

This is going to be an awkward thread - I get the strong feeling that most gay men do not like me right off the bat. I have no issue with lesbians, they're wonderful with me even though I'm straight. But with men its the opposite. I have no issues with whatever preference people have. I have friends of all types, except gay men.
This is a huge issue for me as I want to be accepted, and even more so, there is a company run by gay men that I admire and would love to work for, but I won't even bother applying if I know the place will be filled with attitude toward me. Apparently, there is something I need to change something within myself and I just can't figure it out.

I've always felt much more at home hanging out with guys talking about theory than with women who prefer to talk about people. Maybe there's a disconnect there and that's it? But I can't imagine there wouldn't be some gay men out there who would mesh with me.

I just don't understand, because I can be as nice as nice, bring brownies, do a Starbucks run, you name it and I'm still on the "I can't stand her" list, yet they like everyone else? UGH! I typically just turn to ignoring their attitude and continuing on with life, but eventually I'll have a need to get along with someone who seems to be hard wired to hate me.

 

[Pin]

I don't have any gay friends either but it's not the end of the world. Somewhere out there there's a big gay star in the sky for us all.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

This is going to be an awkward thread - I get the strong feeling that most gay men do not like me right off the bat. I have no issue with lesbians, they're wonderful with me even though I'm straight. But with men its the opposite. I have no issues with whatever preference people have. I have friends of all types, except gay men.
This is a huge issue for me as I want to be accepted, and even more so, there is a company run by gay men that I admire and would love to work for, but I won't even bother applying if I know the place will be filled with attitude toward me. Apparently, there is something I need to change something within myself and I just can't figure it out.

I've always felt much more at home hanging out with guys talking about theory than with women who prefer to talk about people. Maybe there's a disconnect there and that's it? But I can't imagine there wouldn't be some gay men out there who would mesh with me.

I just don't understand, because I can be as nice as nice, bring brownies, do a Starbucks run, you name it and I'm still on the "I can't stand her" list, yet they like everyone else? UGH! I typically just turn to ignoring their attitude and continuing on with life, but eventually I'll have a need to get along with someone who seems to be hard wired to hate me.

What do you think gay men 'are like' generally? You seem to imply that because you prefer to hang out with guys talking about theory, than women talking about people, this means that gay men are generally more alike to women because gay men don't like you.

I'm not saying this to make a vapid, virtue signalling point about stereotypes being wrong or anything, but I am asking what sort of 'gay guys' you're talking about here, because they're a pretty varied bunch.

I'm a straight man, and personally I was only ever 'friends' with one gay man that I know of - a fellow teacher. He was a great guy, but there was a weird distance between us that didn't allow us to properly connect and I had no idea why. I am also fine talking to 'men about theory' as well as to 'women about people', and I enjoy both types of conversation to be honest.

Oh no, wait! I am friends right now with a gay guy. An older PhD student from New Zealand who used to run galleries. He's snarky and acerbic and knowingly pompous and snobby, which is great fun for how self-aware he is. He's another good bloke, and we get on well.

So I don't know. Maybe you have character traits that in general don't gel with a particular group identity, but that's OK. Gay people are as varied as straight people, so I don't know what to suggest. I would be a bit lost if I attempted to connect with an extremely flamboyant and camp person, because I'm not sure we would have much in common. But equally, I struggle to connect with straight people that are massively extroverted 'party types', too.

 

[Elis]

Ok my head is sleepy right now but just off the bat, are you sure this is really it?

Let's say gay people don't mesh with you. I'm gonna go ahead and say that's probably something you do then, maybe some subconscious hints you're sending out that people pick up on or what not.

 

[MoonFlier]

What do you think gay men 'are like' generally? You seem to imply that because you prefer to hang out with guys talking about theory, than women talking about people, this means that gay men are generally more alike to women because gay men don't like you.

I'm not saying this to make a vapid, virtue signalling point about stereotypes being wrong or anything, but I am asking what sort of 'gay guys' you're talking about here, because they're a pretty varied bunch.

I'm a straight man, and personally I was only ever 'friends' with one gay man that I know of - a fellow teacher. He was a great guy, but there was a weird distance between us that didn't allow us to properly connect and I had no idea why. I am also fine talking to 'men about theory' as well as to 'women about people', and I enjoy both types of conversation to be honest.

Oh no, wait! I am friends right now with a gay guy. An older PhD student from New Zealand who used to run galleries. He's snarky and acerbic and knowingly pompous and snobby, which is great fun for how self-aware he is. He's another good bloke, and we get on well.

So I don't know. Maybe you have character traits that in general don't gel with a particular group identity, but that's OK. Gay people are as varied as straight people, so I don't know what to suggest. I would be a bit lost if I attempted to connect with an extremely flamboyant and camp person, because I'm not sure we would have much in common. But equally, I struggle to connect with straight people that are massively extroverted 'party types', too.

Yes, gay men are very diverse in personality, and perhaps I've only run into those who types who don't mesh with me. Please understand that when I say "men talk about theory" and "women talk about people" that comes from my experience growing up. In those engineering classes, women were rare but they were like me. Not gossip based talk, but more based on our studies and the future of science.The other women in my life were all focused on people, parties and popularity and would avoid talking about anything I was really interested in.

The gay men I've encountered all tend to be softer in personality, more feminine like I've described above, kwim? A very few turned out to be vicious, but I know they aren't the norm. Perhaps I just need to encounter the right type. I'm trying to size up this company online to see what personalities they are. I think the owner and I might get along fine as he is also a software guy.

 

[MoonFlier]

Ok my head is sleepy right now but just off the bat, are you sure this is really it?

Let's say gay people don't mesh with you. I'm gonna go ahead and say that's probably something you do then, maybe some subconscious hints you're sending out that people pick up on or what not.

Yes, this is what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[acd]

Stop looking at people in terms of groups. Treat people as individuals. Get to know them as individuals.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Stop looking at people in terms of groups. Treat people as individuals. Get to know them as individuals. Gay men are not some sort of hive mind.

Hey, this is nice as a general principle, but in real world terms there is often a lot of utility in generalising.

This entire forum is based around that premise.

 

[MoonFlier]

Stop looking at people in terms of groups. Treat people as individuals. Get to know them as individuals. Gay men are not some sort of hive mind.

I don't treat them that way one on one though. It's just easier to discuss this subject in this web-format that way. Sorry for the miscommunication.
My approach to people is always that we're all equal no matter what. Where they take it from there is up to them. I don't look at anything other than the person's presence and treat them as though they are a family member to start with.

 

[Pin]

Stop looking at people in terms of groups. Treat people as individuals. Get to know them as individuals.

Yeah!

 

[MoonFlier]

So I just discussed this with my daughter. She's an ENFJ and works with a married gay couple (elderly) as her bosses. She's telling me it's all in my head and I'm feeling things that aren't there. In her words: "All people can hate and be mean, you're just being oversensitive and trying too hard to get the approval of the gay community. They're just normal guys."

I love her.

 

[Infjente]

The extra feminine, histrionic, ESFJ type of gay men? In my experience they are just as difficult to get accepted by as the straight, female version of this "type".

One thing is for sure - your attitude doesn't help you. If you assume you won't be liked, it will show somehow and you're giving them their first reason not to like you - and it will show somehow. You pick up on that and now your suspicions are confirmed; these people just don't/won't like you!

Break the circle - assume that people are going to like you, and it's a good chance they will! No brownies needed!

 

[MoonFlier]

No brownies needed!

Not even ones with extra chocolate chips added?

I am starting to see that now - I must be unconfident around them and trying too hard. I need to learn to chill and just let it be.

 

[Infjente]

Not even ones with extra chocolate chips added?

I am starting to see that now - I must be unconfident around them and trying too hard. I need to learn to chill and just let it be.

On second thought, that might actually do the trick!

Yes, chill

 

[acd]

Hey, this is nice as a general principle, but in real world terms there is often a lot of utility in generalising.

This entire forum is based around that premise.

What's the utility? It's already costing OP a potential career at a company they want to work for. There is little that is constructive in this thinking. It's divisive and limiting. OP has an idea of who gay men are. And that image of gay men doesn't like her. But based on what? A few interactions? I think lumping gay people into a group is as useless as lumping people into groups by hair color.

I don't think you can make the comparison between INFJs and gay men. One is a personality type based on theory the other a sexual orientation. And even within shared personality traits we see a lot of diversity here.

 

[acd]

I don't treat them that way one on one though. It's just easier to discuss this subject in this web-format that way. Sorry for the miscommunication.
My approach to people is always that we're all equal no matter what. Where they take it from there is up to them. I don't look at anything other than the person's presence and treat them as though they are a family member to start with.

If that's true then what (as a group) could they dislike about you?

 

[MoonFlier]

If that's true then what (as a group) could they dislike about you?

Well, again, this is what I was asking. I don't know. I recall someone had mentioned to me that gay men hold women to exceptionally high standards. That thought has probably been playing with my mind for years even though I know it could not be true (everyone has a mom, sisters and colleagues, and who is perfect?)

I was thinking maybe I'm just too... me (an insecure, ugly, goofball) for them to like. That, however, would be reflecting my own opinion of myself into their eyes.

As my daughter said, I'm trying too hard. I'm going to try and not think like this anymore. Just going relax and ponder that position that is available.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

What's the utility? It's already costing OP a potential career at a company they want to work for. There is little that is constructive in this thinking. It's divisive and limiting. OP has an idea of who gay men are. And that image of gay men doesn't like her. But based on what? A few interactions? I think lumping gay people into a group is as useless as lumping people into groups by hair color.

I don't think you can make the comparison between INFJs and gay men. One is a personality type based on theory the other a sexual orientation. And even within shared personality traits we see a lot of diversity here.

As a 'life heuristic', generalising and stereotyping is very very useful. It's something that is hard wired into us evolutionarily simply because in the past it helped us to survive.

If I go into a prison, I will fare better if I carry certain assumptions about what 'prisoners are like', than if I treat everyone as an individual without judgement.

Yes, stereotyping is fucking annoying and can lead to some nasty outcomes, but to completely discard it is rather naïve in my opinion. I used to be this naïve and idealistic myself.

Now, you might say that some stereotypes have more basis than others, and this is true (perhaps depending on the degree of self-selection or tautological selection within the group itself, or some other mechanism), but I don't see anything wrong with discussing things in terms of generalities, concepts and abstractions when this is useful.

This is why I think it's a bit disingenuous to play the 'stop generalising!' card in a thread like this, especially when everyone recognises that 'gay men' tend to have certain traits in common. OP has noticed in her life that gay men seem not to like her; we can either take this seriously and try to figure out what common trait the set 'gay men' tend to dislike, or we can pretend that the fault lies completely with her and her 'faulty' opinion.

 

[acd]

As a 'life heuristic', generalising and stereotyping is very very useful. It's something that is hard wired into us evolutionarily simply because in the past it helped us to survive.

If I go into a prison, I will fare better if I carry certain assumptions about what 'prisoners are like', than if I treat everyone as an individual without judgement.

Yes, stereotyping is fucking annoying and can lead to some nasty outcomes, but to completely discard it is rather naïve in my opinion. I used to be this naïve and idealistic myself.

Now, you might say that some stereotypes have more basis than others, and this is true (perhaps depending on the degree of self-selection or tautological selection within the group itself, or some other mechanism), but I don't see anything wrong with discussing things in terms of generalities, concepts and abstractions when this is useful.

This is why I think it's a bit disingenuous to play the 'stop generalising!' card in a thread like this, especially when everyone recognises that 'gay men' tend to have certain traits in common. OP has noticed in her life that gay men seem not to like her; we can either take this seriously and try to figure out what common trait the set 'gay men' tend to dislike, or we can pretend that the fault lies completely with her and her 'faulty' opinion.

There's no survival value in avoiding gay men because they all seem to dislike you. Like I said, it could be costing them a job.

 

[MoonFlier]

There's no survival value in avoiding gay men because they all seem to dislike you. Like I said, it could be costing them a job.

Exactly, and not only could it cost me a potential position with what seems to be a fantastic company, but more and more people are coming forth as gay! I think it's beautiful that they can do so.
If, however, I continue to think I'll be rejected by them, that will only cause me further distress and who's to say that in my senior years that might not turn into something worse.