Why are we not zealous in our persuit of religious experience?

[5am]

Basically as the title sounds. In many other countries India for example or early greco-roman western civilization. There was a great public appetite for religious experience people zealously gobbled up new ideas, new experiences, new states of mind. Everyone was on a hunt, nothing was decided. [The only ones with certainty were those pushing their own view point!]

What has become of this pursuit? It's now stigmatized and many religions are in decline. Atheistic humanism seems to be the spiritual lingua franca. Which doesn't consider non-westernized view points and is very reductionist in it's taking into account new information. A focus on problem solving and objectivity run in it's very architecture.

I know we have jobs, television and the media taking up all our time now, so exploring religious states is hard to make time for with all the noise but doesn't it seem odd that we would be so motivated in the past to do something but drop it all together? - Especially when it seems to play an integral role in our mental/physical well being.

(I'm also not including myself in the "we" as well as some of you here but I think we are a rarity)

 

[Yatagarasu]

I believe spirituality is important. It allows us to ask questions about why we are here, what might become of us after our life ends, among other reasons. That being said it can be achieved without religious ideas. At least from my perspective. Many are now consumed by their "needs" and the "pleasures of life". Earlier societies and societies that are not developed(India, many countries in the "Middle East", et cetera), usually lean more towards religious ideas to answer the questions they have or to bring them comfort in a seemingly unjust world. Most people in developed countries don't feel those discomforts and thus are more focused on everyday issues.

Also, what is your definition of Atheistic Humanism? Atheism is not a belief system. It is just a rejection of a specific belief system. Humanism is concerned with human needs and wants. Humans are social animals who depend on one another to survive. Why would someone reject that idea if they care about Human suffering?

 

[heiots]

You made a great point when you brought up jobs, television, media, etc. There's plenty of junk food to feed us. You fill up on enough of it, you don't even realize you're missing out on the nutrition that your spiritual/mental/emotional body needs. Having grown up around those who have travelled from first-world countries to third-world countries, I believe there's a connection between whether or not an area is wealthier with these modern distractions and the amount of zeal the people there have for a religious experience.

I'm not all that knowledgeable in religious history, but perhaps it's easier to 'catch' this passion for a religious experience when you're surrounded by people actively pursuing it? It becomes something like a trend, and when you're around people who don't see the need for the experience, it's natural that you spend little time pondering about it.

Bottom line, I guess to be zealous in pursuing something spiritual, you must first realize that you should be seeking after something more than what the modern age is feeding the generations.

Two cents.

 

[sprinkles]

I see no reason or purpose.

Take away all the modern garbage and I wouldn't start seeking something. I'd simply be glad that it is quiet for a change so I can just be.

I don't understand this practice of seeking more than what you have. I don't think it is a key to health, I think it is a coping strategy for people who weren't quite ready for raw life as it is. Because they don't know why their family gets sick and dies, or their crops fail, or their cattle gets diseased. They don't know why and they need a way to deal with it other than "That's just how it is."

 

[Barnabas]

Because there is more to spirituality then bouncing from religion to religion try to collect all the good feels. Starting any new faith is journey, and while I can't speak for any other religions I'm sure there are similarities to Christianity in that you only truly gain the benefits of your faith once you've committed to them.

 

[hk427f3]

Which doesn't consider non-westernized view points

What?

and is very reductionist in it's taking into account new information. A focus on problem solving and objectivity run in it's very architecture.

So?

Like, why aren't people hippies? Because hippie stuff is bullshit, mostly.

 

[5am]

I believe spirituality is important. It allows us to ask questions about why we are here, what might become of us after our life ends, among other reasons. That being said it can be achieved without religious ideas. At least from my perspective. Many are now consumed by their "needs" and the "pleasures of life". Earlier societies and societies that are not developed(India, many countries in the "Middle East", et cetera), usually lean more towards religious ideas to answer the questions they have or to bring them comfort in a seemingly unjust world. Most people in developed countries don't feel those discomforts and thus are more focused on everyday issues.

Also, what is your definition of Atheistic Humanism? Atheism is not a belief system. It is just a rejection of a specific belief system. Humanism is concerned with human needs and wants. Humans are social animals who depend on one another to survive. Why would someone reject that idea if they care about Human suffering?

Asked for a definition, Atheistic Humanism: can't say I can define it as a certain set of beliefs however people who feel there is a logical certainty to the world seem to share a class of views very similar to each other. I grew up with it. I don't claim any certain religion however I feel like people who do have a singular title of a viewpoint are to be questioned. So I am not classifying this viewpoint, it's merely a rhetorical image of how I tired to define it as a focus on problem solving and objectivity. Many times this view point seems to make an enthymeme that they understand the nature of the universe. And should be called into question just as those that claim a religion of some sort.

Any who, any rational individual would see that religions lack a good basis for a claim of certainty. I mean they were written in the friggin bronze and iron ages. But why stare down your nose at it? Isn't much of it imaginative fun, and there in lies the truth that axioms and metaphors contained in stories are a fundamental part of the human emotional condition. We deal with relationships everyday and despite our continued problem solving we've over looked what it means to be human and emotionally so. It may not help us with problems like computer modeling with precision the movement of an orbital body but it decidedly may matter more than that.

In fact, a healthy search without certainty is decidedly what you feel like you take right now, understand the intellect exists in a vacuum and you set the starting point for each logical construct in your head, it makes changes as different ideas try to come into your head logic builds itself off of ideas, therefore it's not able independently verify any one thing can exist, so how could an intellect ever verify there is a God? Why depend on it to make the decision for you? Where must you make the decision? In your heart. People feel it in their heart. In your heart, is where the the hard part happens, you have to imagine whole scenarios any ones that you like!? Yeah, any ones that fascinate you. They all hold answers and like this you begin an empathetic journey with yourself. Consider the questions that are asked. On your heart is many questions, death (void/time), love (family/connection). You begin to see differently, it's like staring at an intricate pattern you only see as you delve deeper in stories, people direct stories at their lives subconsciously and consciously. Some even at this point have a "religious" experience. Mind you these are subjective and some reported are fake but mostly it's just an experience where you are feeling love all around you. Delusion that we want different things as a species melts, we see that deep down we want the same but just go about it differently. We see we aren't just here to benefit ourselves.
I don't think a man called "God" enters anywhere into this argument in fact. I feel like merely living the right way (.002% of us do) is just as important in our lives, if not far more than taking on a knowledge journey. There is certainly not something with an ego that wants to be praised or desires 10% of your paycheck yearly :shots fired:

Now I'm ranting, sorry.

The point is that the culture has killed the speaking of and the topic of all of this, these are real subjective experiences, ones that are hard to capture and even analyze from a psychological perspective. People SHOULD be seeking them. Why shouldn't you? What do you have to loose getting connected with your heart? Sure it's not gonna put a rocket on the moon but it may make it a little easier to understand each other and speak our minds. It definitely makes us happier though happiness as a state of constant being IS a lie. It also makes us less fearful and also to put people (communication) over material items (power).

 

[5am]

I see no reason or purpose.

Take away all the modern garbage and I wouldn't start seeking something. I'd simply be glad that it is quiet for a change so I can just be.

I don't understand this practice of seeking more than what you have. I don't think it is a key to health, I think it is a coping strategy for people who weren't quite ready for raw life as it is. Because they don't know why their family gets sick and dies, or their crops fail, or their cattle gets diseased. They don't know why and they need a way to deal with it other than "That's just how it is."

I like this view point. We simply live in an unjust world.

What makes you think that you have a conception of life without question enough to dismiss a bunch of experiences that happen to people because you imagine them being fearful? You just used logic to reduce a whole huge set of experiences to a fear response? Letting go and just being, is pure action. Again, it's more important to get that down. But it doesn't make for good forum conversation does it? ;p

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=12313]5am[/MENTION]
Maybe it'll make you all those things but how can you be so sure it does anything for me.

I'm also not keen on people telling me what I should be doing.

I know what you're talking about. It is called Indra's net. Some people find that exciting. I've seen it and to me that is just the normal state of things. I don't feel it is anything to be excited about.

However I think I'd be able to enjoy things more if people talked about them less. It's like I'm watching a beautiful butterfly and here somebody is doing a running commentary about how beautiful it is and how I should appreciate it - they are the one detracting from it by distracting me with their opinions instead of letting me just look at it.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Asked for a definition, Atheistic Humanism: can't say I can define it as a certain set of beliefs however people who feel there is a logical certainty to the world seem to share a class of views very similar to each other. I grew up with it. I don't claim any certain religion however I feel like people who do have a singular title of a viewpoint are to be questioned. So I am not classifying this viewpoint, it's merely a rhetorical image of how I tired to define it as a focus on problem solving and objectivity. Many times this view point seems to make an enthymeme that they understand the nature of the universe. And should be called into question just as those that claim a religion of some sort.

Any who, any rational individual would see that religions lack a good basis for a claim of certainty. I mean they were written in the friggin bronze and iron ages. But why stare down your nose at it? Isn't much of it imaginative fun, and there in lies the truth that axioms and metaphors contained in stories are a fundamental part of the human emotional condition. We deal with relationships everyday and despite our continued problem solving we've over looked what it means to be human and emotionally so. It may not help us with problems like computer modeling with precision the movement of an orbital body but it decidedly may matter more than that.

In fact, a healthy search without certainty is decidedly what you feel like you take right now, understand the intellect exists in a vacuum and you set the starting point for each logical construct in your head, it makes changes as different ideas try to come into your head logic builds itself off of ideas, therefore it's not able independently verify any one thing can exist, so how could an intellect ever verify there is a God? Why depend on it to make the decision for you? Where must you make the decision? In your heart. People feel it in their heart. In your heart, is where the the hard part happens, you have to imagine whole scenarios any ones that you like!? Yeah, any ones that fascinate you. They all hold answers and like this you begin an empathetic journey with yourself. Consider the questions that are asked. On your heart is many questions, death (void/time), love (family/connection). You begin to see differently, it's like staring at an intricate pattern you only see as you delve deeper in stories, people direct stories at their lives subconsciously and consciously. Some even at this point have a "religious" experience. Mind you these are subjective and some reported are fake but mostly it's just an experience where you are feeling love all around you. Delusion that we want different things as a species melts, we see that deep down we want the same but just go about it differently. We see we aren't just here to benefit ourselves.
I don't think a man called "God" enters anywhere into this argument in fact. I feel like merely living the right way (.002% of us do) is just as important in our lives, if not far more than taking on a knowledge journey. There is certainly not something with an ego that wants to be praised or desires 10% of your paycheck yearly :shots fired:

Now I'm ranting, sorry.

The point is that the culture has killed the speaking of and the topic of all of this, these are real subjective experiences, ones that are hard to capture and even analyze from a psychological perspective. People SHOULD be seeking them. Why shouldn't you? What do you have to loose getting connected with your heart? Sure it's not gonna put a rocket on the moon but it may make it a little easier to understand each other and speak our minds. It definitely makes us happier though happiness as a state of constant being IS a lie. It also makes us less fearful and also to put people (communication) over material items (power).

I agree what the core of your message is. The only question is how you can ever implement this idea. I am all for putting people over superficial means, but how can you ever convince enough people to value this? I would think that objectivity and problem solving are part of solution, even with what you are suggesting. The more subjective you become usually the less you care about others. Empathy directly correlates to being able to remove yourself from your experience(subjective) and see everything through the eyes of another(objective). But I will agree that you can't exclusively focus on them. Still they are probably some of the most useful tools we have if we are ever going to reach what we all "want".

 

[5am]

Because there is more to spirituality then bouncing from religion to religion try to collect all the good feels. Starting any new faith is journey, and while I can't speak for any other religions I'm sure there are similarities to Christianity in that you only truly gain the benefits of your faith once you've committed to them.

What you decry is Peganism. It's ultimately a path of pain. Defining yourself with pleasure. There is a reason we make fun of religions of Dionysian descent.

Certainly you've been in/felt the holy spirit. ("Where two or more gather")

So you must understand. I don't think we need to point fingers. Why do you think there are so many religions to begin with that have similar benefits and stories based on other's stories? Partially that's how history was passed around then, partially they are parables that hold importance in the metaphor. Lot's of times the bible even skips the story and tells us strait up.

Why divide yourselves from others who are in the same boat of Heavenly Love?

 

[5am]

[MENTION=12313]5am[/MENTION]
Maybe it'll make you all those things but how can you be so sure it does anything for me.

I'm also not keen on people telling me what I should be doing.

I know what you're talking about. It is called Indra's net. Some people find that exciting. I've seen it and to me that is just the normal state of things. I don't feel it is anything to be excited about.

However I think I'd be able to enjoy things more if people talked about them less. It's like I'm watching a beautiful butterfly and here somebody is doing a running commentary about how beautiful it is and how I should appreciate it - they are the one detracting from it by distracting me with their opinions instead of letting me just look at it.

 

[5am]

What?



So?

Like, why aren't people hippies? Because hippie stuff is bullshit, mostly.

*cringe* please grow up.

 

[5am]

I agree what the core of your message is. The only question is how you can ever implement this idea. I am all for putting people over superficial means, but how can you ever convince enough people to value this? I would think that objectivity and problem solving are part of solution, even with what you are suggesting. The more subjective you become usually the less you care about others. Empathy directly correlates to being able to remove yourself from your experience(subjective) and see everything through the eyes of another(objective). But I will agree that you can't exclusively focus on them. Still they are probably some of the most useful tools we have if we are ever going to reach what we all "want".

Subjectivity could be seen as raw data. These things then get modeled so a hypothesis can be made and then tested. Thus it becomes logically objective. I think an objective approach is necessary.

Empathy has a way of existing in an open heart. It's sad that these days logical empathy is trumps. It's a little bit of pride that keeps you doing the right thing. Self talk helps a lot. Logic never leaves the process really.

 

[Solongo]

Basically as the title sounds. In many other countries India for example or early greco-roman western civilization. There was a great public appetite for religious experience people zealously gobbled up new ideas, new experiences, new states of mind. Everyone was on a hunt, nothing was decided. [The only ones with certainty were those pushing their own view point!]

What has become of this pursuit? It's now stigmatized and many religions are in decline. Atheistic humanism seems to be the spiritual lingua franca. Which doesn't consider non-westernized view points and is very reductionist in it's taking into account new information. A focus on problem solving and objectivity run in it's very architecture.

I know we have jobs, television and the media taking up all our time now, so exploring religious states is hard to make time for with all the noise but doesn't it seem odd that we would be so motivated in the past to do something but drop it all together? - Especially when it seems to play an integral role in our mental/physical well being.

(I'm also not including myself in the "we" as well as some of you here but I think we are a rarity)

Most people woke up and decided to not suck ass to some dogmatic power hierarchy masquerading as public religious communion. People still desire a communion experience but the choices in how it manifests are a choice that many did not have before. Music concerts, rallies, protests, marches or whatever public displays of community in the hopes of helping humanity achieve positive growth still exists. The joining of those who seek similar goals and desires can be seen as a spiritual experience and can be achieved for free.

 

[5am]

Most people woke up and decided to not suck ass to some dogmatic power hierarchy masquerading as public religious communion. People still desire a communion experience but the choices in how it manifests are a choice that many did not have before. Music concerts, rallies, protests, marches or whatever public displays of community in the hopes of helping humanity achieve positive growth still exists. The joining of those who seek similar goals and desires can be seen as a spiritual experience and can be achieved for free.

So what I'm hearing is the experience is more important than talking about it. This agrees with everything I understand.

Why does religion have to be dogmatic and push certainty in an otherwise uncertain and unfair world? I don't think every monk believed in the certainty the church sometimes when we're living in the spirit we get into trouble with the church but that doesn't make them right simply because they have authority. Not all religion is dogmatic?

 

[Solongo]

So what I'm hearing is the experience is more important than talking about it. This agrees with everything I understand.

Why does religion have to be dogmatic and push certainty in an otherwise uncertain and unfair world? I don't think every monk believed in the certainty the church sometimes when we're living in the spirit we get into trouble with the church but that doesn't make them right simply because they have authority. Not all religion is dogmatic?

I guess there is a reason they call it "organized religion". Who is doing the organizing? It's dogmatic because it does not allow room for different perspectives.

 

[5am]

I guess there is a reason they call it "organized religion". Who is doing the organizing? It's dogmatic because it does not allow room for different perspectives.

It's a decidedly patriarchal institution. So I guess it has to post a frame of reference and "defend" it like it's under attack. It's an ego trick. But it seems to motivate people, there is a lot there that is worth it's scratch. Not politically admittedly.

I feel like so much of all this religious hate has a political (almost tribalistic) backbone (politics is also a patriarchal system that stays tightly controlled by money). I think of our system of politics as anathema. So I gave up politics a long time ago. I say no to tribalism. I think better conversation not politics is the only thing that's going to change things.

 

[muir]

I wouldn't overlook the influence of secular materialist cultural marxism as well.....it doesn't come waving a marxist flag and making lots of noise it just quietly programmes people through hollywood films, TV programmes, magazines, university courses etc

 

[5am]

I wouldn't overlook the influence of secular materialist cultural marxism as well.....it doesn't come waving a marxist flag and making lots of noise it just quietly programmes people through hollywood films, TV programmes, magazines, university courses etc

You're going to have to be more specific. Please link me to a thread or something of that nature.

I think materialism is not inherently marxist but something of it's own nature. I also believe that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, no body is guilty of mass conspiracy and hate here. I also think that ideas can't be killed and live in the minds of someone whether they know so or not and it's really hard to challenge those assumptions with limited time/brain power to do so. So many stupid ideas persist, even become a dominant idea in our nation. This is the secret behind why some people can't work and it may be unfair to try and force them to do so without help or special care, ignore this and you become nearly Machiavellian. Also it's why people think government can change things when really it's a sort of cultural war instead, I feel you are actively waging cultural war. (although you practice the right approach, you must stand by the principle - improve your argument not raise your voice)

Marxism in your case is already such a trigger word, you bring with it so much preconception and possibly anger, I don't know if I want to let something like that into my life, especially if it's free of deductive reasoning. I do not block out the bad things (they don't block you out) so I will take a look at your argument further. Please oblige me with your full confidence and best argument.
(but in another thread unless you focus here on the mechanisms that prevent people from a spiritual pursuit)