What Is Your Idol? | INFJ Forum

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What is your idol? Money, Pleasure, Fame, or Power?

If your idol isn't clear to you, figure it out by thinking about which one of these four you'd give up first. The last one you'd give up is your idol.

Care to expand on why this is your idol?

Has chasing after your idol made you happier, or not? Why?
 
What is your idol? Money, Pleasure, Fame, or Power?

If your idol isn't clear to you, figure it out by thinking about which one of these four you'd give up first. The last one you'd give up is your idol.

Care to expand on why this is your idol?

Has chasing after your idol made you happier, or not? Why?
Pleasure. I always have the hardest time giving up my favorite dessert. It provides a euphoria that makes life worth living. If all else is shitty about the world, pleasure from sleep, food, hobbies, etc. seem to help me survive. It has made me happier, yes. I'm not sure, however, if it's healthy or if it's just a form of escapism.
 
I'd give up fame first. Then power. I wrestled with money and pleasure, but then I realized money is my vehicle to pleasure. When I can access pleasure without money, I don't need the money.

I think pleasure via money has been pleasurable in the moment, but I have paid for it in overwork and lack of authenticity.

Much more lately, I am trying to embrace the free pleasures available to anyone willing to open to their presence.

I don't know how I will ultimately evaluate this part of my journey of idolizing pleasure without money.

What is existence without pleasure?

What would it be to not prioritize it? Even if finding the pleasure in the painful, in the growth?

Is that idolatry?
 
My idol is pleasure.

For me, this list goes: pleasure, fame, money, power.

Pleasure – I want to enjoy life, see its beauty and depth (even in the pain), love, experience, have adventures, think, create, nurture, and devote my time to activities I enjoy even when I'm working. My spouse and I chose careers associated with pleasure.

Does it make me happy? Yes. Happiness is a result of the way one lives. It's akin to the sensation of being full after eating. I try to focus on activities of value that are fulfilling. Life can be a hard, dark struggle and full of pain, but I always feel an underlying pulse of joy in being alive. I don't take anything for granted. I enjoy the process as much as achieving the goal.

Fame – I don't want to be famous, but I do want to be well-regarded and respected both as a friend and as a professional. I want to be appreciated for my good qualities and for what I do well. I am flattered when someone namedrops me for my qualities and embarrassed by other kinds of attention.

Money – Money stresses me out. I see the benefit of having more because it makes survival easier, but I don't value wealth. I find the rising costs of being alive suffocating.

Power – I don't admire power. I don't want you to have power over me and I don't want to have power over you. I don't trust people who want power. I loathe people who misuse power.
 
What is existence without pleasure?

What would it be to not prioritize it? Even if finding the pleasure in the painful, in the growth?

I agree with you because my idol is pleasure, but some people have a hunger for one of the other three that overrides their desire for pleasure. The desire for success is a big one people put before pleasure. Success could mean wealth, power, or fame.

Is that idolatry?

It's more about your hang-ups, what drives you, what keeps you from your happiness, and what you value than literal idolatry. It's based on Thomas Aquinas' four replacements for god: wealth, pleasure, power, and honor/fame.
 
Pleasure. I always have the hardest time giving up my favorite dessert. It provides a euphoria that makes life worth living. If all else is shitty about the world, pleasure from sleep, food, hobbies, etc. seem to help me survive. It has made me happier, yes. I'm not sure, however, if it's healthy or if it's just a form of escapism.

You seem to be torn about whether or not pleasure is fulfilling for you. If life is stressful, a little escapism can act as a pressure release and that is good for you. If pleasure isn't fulfilling, how could you live a more fulfilling life? (You don't have to tell us, that can be an internal conversation if you want.)

I don't know why you'd give up your favorite dessert. Why not give up something you enjoy less if you need more balance and splurge on that one dessert?

Oh, certainly pleasure. I can and have done embarrassing things for sex.

Yeah, sex is the only one of the big hedonistic activities (like drinking, drugs, over-eating) I gravitate toward.
 
Out of these, power.

It's a terrible shame that Marxist cultural influences have degraded power to mere tyrannical compulsion that is now being peddled as the guilt-inducing tenet across institutions. Power as competent magnanimity is necessary for channeling masculinity in men, especially when subjected to a higher ideal (which disqualifies it as an idol in itself). It becomes even more potent when you minimize your reliance on the rest. When people talk about happiness, they mean attaining a state of being where suffering is no longer a psychological threat. Pleasure is a poor mask for that because it relies on distraction from suffering, and wealth is often just means to secure pleasure. But money can be good IF you have a proper plan for it, i.e. building something greater with it.
 
It's more about your hang-ups, what drives you, what keeps you from your happiness, and what you value than literal idolatry. It's based on Thomas Aquinas' four replacements for god: wealth, pleasure, power, and honor/fame.

Thank you for that context. That is a reflection starter for sure. I'm going to take a look at where driving toward pleasure keeps me from my values. Images are already rolling
 
Pleasure, usually via money.
No wonder I experience each day as a continuous orgasm of intrinsic joy /s

Kanye-West.jpg
 
Out of these, power.

It's a terrible shame that Marxist cultural influences have degraded power to mere tyrannical compulsion that is now being peddled as the guilt-inducing tenet across institutions. Power as competent magnanimity is necessary for channeling masculinity in men, especially when subjected to a higher ideal (which disqualifies it as an idol in itself). It becomes even more potent when you minimize your reliance on the rest. When people talk about happiness, they mean attaining a state of being where suffering is no longer a psychological threat. Pleasure is a poor mask for that because it relies on distraction from suffering, and wealth is often just means to secure pleasure. But money can be good IF you have a proper plan for it, i.e. building something greater with it.

Based on these beliefs, is your idol adding to or subtracting from your happiness and fulfillment. Are you attaining the definition of your idol?
The meaning of happiness is a philosophical question with an answer that can be argued. The real question here is are you happy?

Pleasure, usually via money.
No wonder I experience each day as a continuous orgasm of intrinsic joy /s
Kanye-West.jpg

Dood looks so dead inside.
(Pun intended.)
 
Pleasure is my idol, because pleasure is a means by which to quiet the mind, and Type 9 calm uber alles and all that.

Then comes Power, because to me, power speaks to ability, as in, the power to walk, the power to do the simple things in life. Having once lost those things, I am aware of their worth.

Then comes Money, because it is a means to opportunity, typically to pleasure.

Fame? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cheers,
Ian
 
Pleasure is my idol, because pleasure is a means by which to quiet the mind, and Type 9 calm uber alles and all that.

I knew that.

Then comes Power, because to me, power speaks to ability, as in, the power to walk, the power to do the simple things in life. Having once lost those things, I am aware of their worth.

I get that.
It's interesting to think of what power means to different people. (Pleasure as well.)
 
Based on these beliefs, is your idol adding to or subtracting from your happiness and fulfillment. Are you attaining the definition of your idol?
The meaning of happiness is a philosophical question with an answer that can be argued. The real question here is are you happy?
I wouldn't be defending it if it were impacting me negatively. I can't attain the ideal itself as a stable position, it's a lifestyle and not an easy one. That means I often fail to do my duty, but when I get close to the ideal, it changes me profoundly. I don't think about it in terms of happiness myself, and that's part of it: not thinking of myself all that much. That includes rejecting the cult of authenticity and self-discovery (i.e. "craft your own truth about yourself") and trying to develop as someone who can be held accountable to an external standard that asks more of him. But you could say that I'm happy with my position and the potentialities I foresee in it.
 
I thought about it more and I realize that my thoughts on Fame are what they are (unbalanced) because of two childhood traumas.

First, I had to take an absolute position on not giving a fuck in order to individuate, to become a person—total detachment was required, and I suppose I liked it too—no one else living in my head, no other noise—a kind of quiet, and a kind of freedom. The freedom to be me. That I was real, and not someone’s possession. That I had some value, some real worth that was not just a measure of someone else’s standards and expectations. That I was enough, regardless of anyone else, whatever they might think or say.

Second, my chronic childhood sexual abuse and the adult sexual assaults—in a way, I just want to be invisible. I’m going to go about my business, and I’m going to blend in and disappear. Maybe that means you won’t see me, or think about me, or touch me. I can’t be predated if I don’t exist. Put simply, rape is anti-pleasure, so I want anti-fame. I will do whatever I can to not be present—used to be I would dissociate, or not show up. These days, I try to appear unremarkable, and I think about being uber-average.

Not trusting people is hard, because it leads to a lonely life. Loneliness is not pleasurable, and loneliness is not happy. But I do trust people now—in that most people are safe, and a good number would hurt me without concern in trying to meet their needs.

Disability was not as big a blow as it is for some, because I was already a homebody. When I am in my nest, I am safe.

But take all that, and combine it with the sx/sp subtype. Combine it with intimacy being my core value. The need to know, and be known. The desire to merge, for union—to forget myself, to disappear through fusion.

It may sound silly, but doing anything that attracts attention is experienced by me as a risk. That said, I know I have grown, or that I have need, because my actions have changed. I express in ways contrary to what culture tells me is correct—usually things that have to do with being a man.

I don’t know how much time I have left, and I want have to be authentic. If you see me, that’s okay. Because I have come to accept that there is a pleasure in certain kinds of self-expression. I die inside if I don’t do those things.

Thanks for allowing me to ramble,
Ian
 
I wouldn't be defending it if it were impacting me negatively. I can't attain the ideal itself as a stable position, it's a lifestyle and not an easy one. That means I often fail to do my duty, but when I get close to the ideal, it changes me profoundly. I don't think about it in terms of happiness myself, and that's part of it: not thinking of myself all that much. That includes rejecting the cult of authenticity and self-discovery (i.e. "craft your own truth about yourself") and trying to develop as someone who can be held accountable to an external standard that asks more of him. But you could say that I'm happy with my position and the potentialities I foresee in it.


This seems to track fairly close to Thomas Aquinas' definition of the replacements for god where he used "honor*" instead of "fame".

It depends on what happiness is. I agree that happiness does include thinking less about self. It's also about wanting less and about gratitude, among other things.

You're one of the few people on this forum who seems to reject the western ideal of individualism.


*Respect/esteem
 
reject the western ideal of individualism.

To make an ideal of that which does not exist, and to make virtuous a thing that leads to all manner of madness.

Individualism seems to me the absolute embodiment of hell.

Cheers,
Ian
 
To make an ideal of that which does not exist, and to make virtuous a thing that leads to all manner of madness.

Individualism seems to me the absolute embodiment of hell.

Cheers,
Ian


It seems like an excuse to reject taking responsibility.
 
It seems like an excuse to reject taking responsibility.

Quite. You also don’t have to recognize or honor boundaries, or even think about consent if everyone is below your imagined and desired destiny.

All people and things as means to an end—either by direct utility, or as proofs of power, merit, and achievement. The most debased will be both those things, but they will never be valued for their being otherwise, and their sentience will be ignored, disbelieved, mocked, and belittled.

I imagine the top of the hill is a lonely place, but maybe AI toys will someday make it otherwise. :rolleyes:

-------

I just thought about happiness. Does a given person define that for themself, or do they make a culturally-validated standard of the good life their North Star?

Best,
Ian
 
What is your idol? Money, Pleasure, Fame, or Power?
None of these - they all let us down, in the end, on their own.

Peace is where my compass points. To have peace is god-like, but I've done no more than glimpse it .... yet there it is, always, deep down. It's just that all the noise drowns it out.