Walter J. Palmer DDS, Lion Slayer | INFJ Forum

Walter J. Palmer DDS, Lion Slayer

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Stu

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So is the hunting of Lions and other endangered species akin to deer hunting? In the article I read Dr Palmer wounded Cecil with a bolt from his cross bow and then he and his team of professional guides trailed him for a couple of days before finally catching up to him and shooting him with a gun (or) guns. Cecil was then beheaded and skinned and left to rot.
 
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I think it is a very different situation. It the US there is an issue with over-population of deer, and most hunters I know of (including one who posts here) eat their venison. I think it is one of the more ethical approaches to meat eating. I am a vegetarian myself for the reason that I don't have the gall to kill what I eat. If one doesn't want to see how the sausage is made, one should rethink the decision to eat sausage. Anyway, Cecil. A beautiful, noble animal whose species is not over-populating his territory. It wasn't sport or utilitarian. It was wanton and sadistic waste of a beautiful animal by a tourist who was invading his territory and not vise versa (deer are so over-populated they have spread into neighborhoods and cause car accidents etc). Don't get me wrong, I love deer and wouldn't kill one, but I do think there is a big difference between US deer hunters and safari tourists.

EDIT: Adding also that we live under the assumption that some animals are special. Wrong or right, that's how our society is organized. Human animals are considered especially important. Pets are considered special. A lion, by any standard, is a special breed. Apparently this was also a special lion, in possession of a name and all. The stalking of and butchering of Cecil obviously struck a cord with the world over because he is considered to be a special animal worthy of a higher level of care and protection.
 
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Some how, after he pays who knows what kind of fine, it seems that he will never get his business going again. Part of me thinks that is fair but on the other hand if what he was doing is sanctioned by the law is it really just that he be ruined for doing what others do (legally)
 
Killing for the sake of amusement or enjoyment ... this is something I as an INFJ can never wrap my mind around. To find pleasure in seeing something die. Think about how awful of a human being you can be to think this way.

Hunting for the sake of hunger is one thing. There is at least some respect for the poor beasts. But for the sake of amusement, pure evil to me.
 
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I went to his yelp page and saw this
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Some how, after he pays who knows what kind of fine, it seems that he will never get his business going again. Part of me thinks that is fair but on the other hand if what he was doing is sanctioned by the law is it really just that he be ruined for doing what others do (legally)

Yes, it is an issue. Being convicted in the court of public opinion and via vigilantism, has major problems. It was wrong of Mia Farrow to publish his personal address, for example. However, I'm not 100% that what he did was legal. Since there is discussion about extraditing him to Africa to try him, I assume there is some kind of charge under discussion, I was too upset by the pics to read the articles.
 
I guess the US has really strong extradition laws with Zimbabwe...he will most likely face some sort of trial if extradited.
The highest charge I believe they said he could face is for luring a protected animal from the sanctuary...I think they said up to 5 years in prison...which I imagine is not pleasant in that country.
If you tack on the other charges then it might be 8 years.
Our own fish and wildlife dept. is also investigating and could charge him as well.
You reap what you sow...notch one up for Karma.
I bet he runs though...like a hunted animal.
 
I have hunted deer for many years. Never wanted to kill a lion. I was raised eating fish and wild game(as they call it). A bald eagle is protected, so it is not "game". My age and health have slowed me down a lot, but I was able to put a young buck in the freezer last season. Some people just hunt for the trophies, which is fine by me. Never watched or heard of any around here throwing the meat away. Deer provide us with food, and we are thankful for it. We don't make sausage with ours. I butcher it the same as I would butcher a cow. A neck shot kills the deer before it hits the ground. No suffering. I help manage the herd where I hunt. I allow them to study the deer before cleaning it. I soak the meat in ice water three days before freezing it in roasts and such.

I read about safaris when I was young, and have watched them on TV. Never felt the calling to do that, but I will not condemn it if done legally and properly and the meat feeds people. I do not condone killing an animal off a refuge that people watch, when they are protected. I do not know the whole Cecil the Lion story and will not pass judgment. Someone else can do that.
[MENTION=1939]Stu[/MENTION] , what kind of question is that? "So is the hunting of Lions and other endangered species akin to deer hunting?"
My best answer? Give me a break.
 
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i struggle to understand why someone would go this far out of their way to destroy an animal for fun. some sort of need to identify nostalgically with imperialistic dominance? normal people (at least those who do not hunt their food) satisfy this urge by going down to the pub and playing one of those video games where you pretend to use a real gun, not by going to a foreign country and hunting an endangered species or a beloved local pet or wildlife celebrity. too much money, not enough sense. a person does not deserve their business destroyed for this, but perhaps it is a fairly simple consequence.

my mother went to africa herself, determined to bring back animal skins to lay on the floors. i had to explain to her that whether she kills the animal herself or not, this is trophy hunting, and it is unhelpful to these countries. thankfully she didnt bring home any animal corpse parts to decorate the home. grisly, macabre, weird.
 
I don't support the guy or what he did, but I thought this Reuters article was interesting, and I bolded the parts that were of particular interest to me.

[h=1]'What lion?' Zimbabweans ask, amid global Cecil circus[/h] HARARE | By MacDonald Dzirutwe
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As social media exploded with outrage this week at the killing of Cecil the lion, the untimely passing of the celebrated predator at the hands of an American dentist went largely unnoticed in the animal's native Zimbabwe. "What lion?" acting information minister Prisca Mupfumira asked in response to a request for comment about Cecil, who was at that moment topping global news bulletins and generating reams of abuse for his killer on websites in the United States and Europe. The government has still given no formal response, and on Thursday the papers that chose to run the latest twist in the Cecil saga tucked it away on inside pages. One title had to rely on foreign news agency copy because it failed to send a reporter to the court appearance of two locals involved.


In contrast, the previous evening 200 people stood in protest outside the suburban Minneapolis dental practice of 55-year-old Walter Palmer, calling for him to be extradited to Zimbabwe to face charges of taking part in an illegal hunt. Local police are also investigating death threats against Palmer, whose location is not known. Because many of the threats were online, police are having difficulty determining their origins and credibility. Palmer, a lifelong big game hunter, has admitted killing Cecil with a bow and arrow on July 1 near Zimbabwe's Hwange national park, but said he had hired professional local guides with the required hunting permits and believed the hunt was legal.


For most people in the southern African nation, where unemployment tops 80 percent and the economy continues to feel the after-effects of billion percent hyperinflation a decade ago, the uproar had all the hallmarks of a 'First World Problem'. "Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country," said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. "What is so special about this one?" As with many countries in Africa, in Zimbabwe big wild animals such as lions, elephants or hippos are seen either as a potential meal, or a threat to people and property that needs to be controlled or killed.


The world of Palmer, who paid $50,000 to kill 13-year-old Cecil, is a very different one from that inhabited by millions of rural Africans who are more than occasionally victims of wild animal attacks. According to CrocBITE, a database, from January 2008 to October 2013, there were more than 460 recorded attacks by Nile crocodiles, most of them fatal. That tally is almost certainly a massive underrepresentation. "Why are the Americans more concerned than us?" said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. "We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange."


(Additional reporting by Ed Stoddard in Johannesburg; Editing by Ed Cropley and Giles Elgood)
 
Im on the fence with this one. Its not like other lions dont die because Africa allows big game hunting for a price. Cicel will not be the last lion to die.
However the way they got him was pretty much about the lamest wuss way I can think of. Almost as bad as caging him, release him and when he steps foot out of the cage killing him.
I have a rereal problem with people killing for sport. Not the people that hunt for food.
Anyway if this guy knowingly did something illegal he needs to be held accountable to that. Beyond that puhlease..get angry for every other lion that will and has died for sport. Its not like this is something new. It just showed up in the news one day so that they could tell you how you should feel about it.
 
issues do tend to galvanize over single incidents. its unfortunate that one person should have to answer disproportionately in order for people to become motivated about expressing mass cultural attitudes. but regardless of many other countless tragedies happening in africa or in other parts of the world it seems apparent that the culture has decided that trophy hunting is not socially acceptable. i think that the reasons for the change in the cultural attitude are in this case probably not too misguided, thats maybe only my personal prejudice though.
 
I don't support the guy or what he did, but I thought this Reuters article was interesting, and I bolded the parts that were of particular interest to me.


If you can find a way to make people give a fuck about starving children, or Vets, or the homeless, please let me know…
Which leads me to my point that it is for sure a first world problem…the people in the US are mostly clueless to what is actually taking place around the world.
I mean, even if you watch the national evening news, they barely touch on any issues around the world.
You literally have to seek it out.
I think people got so wound up about this one is because of the un-sportsman like way in which the Lion died…coupled with an actual person to direct there hatred at, instead of just a vague and intangible view of real world problems like world hunger.
People don’t know how to tackle that…that would take worldwide cooperation and we are no where near that….so I think some people ignore and are apathetic to issues they are ignorant of...or in order to solve the issue it is almost insurmountable, and take the easy way out.

Lions are cuter than poor people.
 
i think that we have previously covered similar argumentative ground in a different thread to do with transgender supposedly being a first world problem. comparing the problem to other problems that are perceived as more serious or severe or pressing or urgent does not necessarily mean that the problem itself is not worth addressing.
 
For most people in the southern African nation, where unemployment tops 80 percent and the economy continues to feel the after-effects of billion percent hyperinflation a decade ago, the uproar had all the hallmarks of a 'First World Problem'. "Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country," said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. "What is so special about this one?" A

Rich hunters paying tens of thousands of dollars to kill big game is an important source of income for Zimbabwe, a country that has been notoriously driven into the ground by a corrupt political class.

my issue is not with the Zimbabweans, although there is plenty of room for improvement among their leadership. My problem is with these rich men who believe that if they can pay for it and it is technically legal then why not kill one of only a 'few" that are left.

I would not be surprised if there was not a lucrative business in sneaking rich men into war zones and shoot people.
 
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I may as well say it here, I don't care about this story. I'm unaffected by the issue of an animal being killed by a man, mainly b/c I am tired of friends on FB bitching about something just so they have a reason to complain ... and then do nothing about it.
 
In deer hunting the DNR pays close attention to deer populations and sells hunting licenses as a way to manage population numbers. Essentially they're allowing deer hunters to help with conservation and they charge a small fee to support the work they do. Rather than exploiting the animals for money they are looking at a number that is needed to keep healthy the species as a whole.

What happened with this lion is totally different. Illegal poaching only regards money and is not done for conservation. Yeah sure they may get a few dollars now, but what happens when there's no lions left to shoot because of unregulated hunting? It wouldn't be the first time a species has been hunted to extinction. Where will they get their money then?
 
In deer hunting the DNR pays close attention to deer populations and sells hunting licenses as a way to manage population numbers. Essentially they're allowing deer hunters to help with conservation and they charge a small fee to support the work they do. Rather than exploiting the animals for money they are looking at a number that is needed to keep healthy the species as a whole.

What happened with this lion is totally different. Illegal poaching only regards money and is not done for conservation. Yeah sure they may get a few dollars now, but what happens when there's no lions left to shoot because of unregulated hunting? It wouldn't be the first time a species has been hunted to extinction. Where will they get their money then?

i agree with you. i think that the living body of wildlife represents a more valuable resource longterm than selling dead bodies of individual wildlife examples.